Tick tick clunk! - Page 9

Goose51683 · 08-21-2013, 11:11 AM

I will start over from scratch but so far in recent past I have:

checked spark at the plug
checked compression, have not used a compression checker though.
shot starter fluid in the chamber with no results.

I just got a timing light today to check that.

Would I be safe to assume that if I shoot the light down the hole on the gen side I should get a light when the T mark shows through the hole on the cover?

**jonathan180iq** · 08-21-2013, 11:22 AM

When set right, that's what they'll do. They blaze up and if everything is right, the two arrows will illuminate very close to each other.

I don't know what compression is supposed to be on these engines, but you should be able to pull that from the service manual. Plus, considering you just did a rebuild, they should be just about factory.

Goose51683 · 08-21-2013, 02:27 PM

well the issue is I'm having trouble finding a compression tester that will fit this bike.

Goose51683 · 08-22-2013, 08:13 AM

Okay, took the time to go back through everything again last night.

I have a good spark, I am reasonably sure I am getting fuel to the cylinder BUT...

When placing my finger over the hole for the cylinder and trying to fire the engine I do not get much of a pushback. I feel the slight pop but nothing close to "blowing my thumb off the hole" like has been described.

So of course the part of the bike I am weakest on, compression, seems to be the next possible issue. Can anyone school me up on compression. I know as the cylinder rises it should cause the air to compress in the cylinder. In order for this to occur you have a have a good seal around the piston rings and the valves need to seat properly.

My question now is do i have to pull the engine apart or is there anything else I can check prior to that.

**jonathan180iq** · 08-22-2013, 08:50 AM

Did you do this finger test by hand cranking the motor or by thumbing the starter and letting it physically pump it over and over? Did you let it spin more than a couple of times? You shouldn't have been able to hold your thumb in place...

Assuming your piston and rings were the proper size and that they seated properly, you still need to look at the timing. If, for example, on ever compression stroke, one of the valves is open, then all of potential "boom" is being lost through that leak. It's possible that it's so off that your valves are closing on the suction stroke and you're never making compression at all, really. Timing is a big deal if it's really off. This is why burned valves cause motors to not run... or valve seats that aren't seated, which is what you replaced, right?

Check your timing with the light. If the marks hit properly and your vales are within spec on the measurements, then the problem, I would think, would be in the seats and the valves themselves.

Hit up Ovcil88. He recently replaced his piston, as have a couple of other members here recently, and they have some more first hand insight into something that maybe you missed?

Goose51683 · 08-22-2013, 11:58 AM

I thumbed the starter. when I installed the valves I checked to make sure that the valves seated securely. It was very easy to keep my finger over the hole. Looks like I'll check the valves next to see if they are actually seated.

Do you know at what point the exhaust valves and in the intake valves open and close? If I check through the upstroke I would imagine that all the valves should be closed correct?

Is this kind of info in the manual? I don't recall seeing it but I may have overlooked it.

**jonathan180iq** · 08-22-2013, 02:31 PM

Poor man's method is this:

Pop the valve inspection covers. When the intake lobe is at 6 o'clock (completely engaging the valve), your piston should be at the the very bottom of the cylinder. There is the compression stroke to follow, where both valves should close. When both valves are completely disengaged, your piston should be at TDC. Test this with a light and a pencil.... (Easy on the pencil. People have talked about dropping an eraser in the chamber... Just don't use a shit pencil. Get a fresh one that fall won't apart when you touch it.)

You'll have to do this by turning the motor over by hand so you can see what's happening. Get a little flashlight and have a buddy help you out. This will at least tell you if you are in the general zone of if you're off by a whole rotation or something...Plus, this is free and will only take a few minutes. If your timing is right, then the issue has to be internal.

Once again, if you REALLY need to know, then getting an adapter for a real compression kit is not that hard. I would send you a link right now to one that you can get from JCwhitney, but I think I just gave you enough info to get you there. I would also almost bet you money that you can find one locally so you don't have to wait. (That being said, I just don't think you have enough compression and my gut tells me your whole timing is off but more than just a tooth or something...just a gut feeling though.)

IF your timing is good, then I'm afraid you're going to have to go back in there and do this again.

Just back off mentally for a bit and make sure it's all very step by step. One thing at a time. Don't get distracted and starting working on more than one system at once. One. Thing. At. A. Time.

JohnC · 08-23-2013, 10:23 PM

First thing I'd do is make sure the valves are actually closing, i.e. check the clearance. Be certain you are on the correct TDC when you do it as there are 2, one where they are both closed and one where they are "rocking" (the exhaust valve is closing at the end of the exhaust stroke and the intake is opening at the start of the intake stroke. If you can see the cam, you can identify the point where the valves rock and a rough check of valve timing can be made by verifying the piston is at tdc. Do not adjust the valves at this point, though. rotate the crank another 360 degrees so both rockers are on what's called the base circle of the cam. Then adjust the valves.

Without going back through the whole thread I can't tell is you removed the piston. If not, you could have a pinched ring causing a loss of compression, too.

Goose51683 · 08-24-2013, 09:27 PM

Whoa whoa whoa....I didn't remove the entire piston etc but let's go back to the two possible scenarios at "TDC". ( please write out what TDC is. I assume its te location of te T mark)

I put the engine at the T mark when I adjusted the valves but didn't pay any attention to the valves actual position, at least not any special attention. Ill add this to the list of things to check.

alantf · 08-25-2013, 04:22 AM

I'm no mechanic, but from what I've read on this site, the T mark can come up twice in the cycle - both when the piston is at top dead centre and bottom dead centre, so it's possible to get it 180Âº out.

08-21-2013, 11:11 AM	#81
Goose51683 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Indiana Posts: 621	Re: Tick tick clunk! I will start over from scratch but so far in recent past I have: checked spark at the plug checked compression, have not used a compression checker though. shot starter fluid in the chamber with no results. I just got a timing light today to check that. Would I be safe to assume that if I shoot the light down the hole on the gen side I should get a light when the T mark shows through the hole on the cover? Login or Register to Remove Ads
	0

08-21-2013, 11:22 AM	#82
jonathan180iq Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dalton, GA Posts: 3,995	Re: Tick tick clunk! When set right, that's what they'll do. They blaze up and if everything is right, the two arrows will illuminate very close to each other. I don't know what compression is supposed to be on these engines, but you should be able to pull that from the service manual. Plus, considering you just did a rebuild, they should be just about factory.
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08-21-2013, 02:27 PM	#83
Goose51683 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Indiana Posts: 621	Re: Tick tick clunk! well the issue is I'm having trouble finding a compression tester that will fit this bike. Login or Register to Remove Ads
	0

08-22-2013, 08:13 AM	#84
Goose51683 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Indiana Posts: 621	Re: Tick tick clunk! Okay, took the time to go back through everything again last night. I have a good spark, I am reasonably sure I am getting fuel to the cylinder BUT... When placing my finger over the hole for the cylinder and trying to fire the engine I do not get much of a pushback. I feel the slight pop but nothing close to "blowing my thumb off the hole" like has been described. So of course the part of the bike I am weakest on, compression, seems to be the next possible issue. Can anyone school me up on compression. I know as the cylinder rises it should cause the air to compress in the cylinder. In order for this to occur you have a have a good seal around the piston rings and the valves need to seat properly. My question now is do i have to pull the engine apart or is there anything else I can check prior to that.
	0

08-22-2013, 08:50 AM	#85
jonathan180iq Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dalton, GA Posts: 3,995	Re: Tick tick clunk! Did you do this finger test by hand cranking the motor or by thumbing the starter and letting it physically pump it over and over? Did you let it spin more than a couple of times? You shouldn't have been able to hold your thumb in place... Assuming your piston and rings were the proper size and that they seated properly, you still need to look at the timing. If, for example, on ever compression stroke, one of the valves is open, then all of potential "boom" is being lost through that leak. It's possible that it's so off that your valves are closing on the suction stroke and you're never making compression at all, really. Timing is a big deal if it's really off. This is why burned valves cause motors to not run... or valve seats that aren't seated, which is what you replaced, right? Check your timing with the light. If the marks hit properly and your vales are within spec on the measurements, then the problem, I would think, would be in the seats and the valves themselves. Hit up Ovcil88. He recently replaced his piston, as have a couple of other members here recently, and they have some more first hand insight into something that maybe you missed? Login or Register to Remove Ads
	0

08-22-2013, 11:58 AM	#86
Goose51683 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Indiana Posts: 621	Re: Tick tick clunk! I thumbed the starter. when I installed the valves I checked to make sure that the valves seated securely. It was very easy to keep my finger over the hole. Looks like I'll check the valves next to see if they are actually seated. Do you know at what point the exhaust valves and in the intake valves open and close? If I check through the upstroke I would imagine that all the valves should be closed correct? Is this kind of info in the manual? I don't recall seeing it but I may have overlooked it.
	0

08-22-2013, 02:31 PM	#87
jonathan180iq Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dalton, GA Posts: 3,995	Re: Tick tick clunk! Poor man's method is this: Pop the valve inspection covers. When the intake lobe is at 6 o'clock (completely engaging the valve), your piston should be at the the very bottom of the cylinder. There is the compression stroke to follow, where both valves should close. When both valves are completely disengaged, your piston should be at TDC. Test this with a light and a pencil.... (Easy on the pencil. People have talked about dropping an eraser in the chamber... Just don't use a shit pencil. Get a fresh one that fall won't apart when you touch it.) You'll have to do this by turning the motor over by hand so you can see what's happening. Get a little flashlight and have a buddy help you out. This will at least tell you if you are in the general zone of if you're off by a whole rotation or something...Plus, this is free and will only take a few minutes. If your timing is right, then the issue has to be internal. Once again, if you REALLY need to know, then getting an adapter for a real compression kit is not that hard. I would send you a link right now to one that you can get from JCwhitney, but I think I just gave you enough info to get you there. I would also almost bet you money that you can find one locally so you don't have to wait. (That being said, I just don't think you have enough compression and my gut tells me your whole timing is off but more than just a tooth or something...just a gut feeling though.) IF your timing is good, then I'm afraid you're going to have to go back in there and do this again. Just back off mentally for a bit and make sure it's all very step by step. One thing at a time. Don't get distracted and starting working on more than one system at once. One. Thing. At. A. Time.
	0

08-23-2013, 10:23 PM	#88
JohnC Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 127	Re: Tick tick clunk! First thing I'd do is make sure the valves are actually closing, i.e. check the clearance. Be certain you are on the correct TDC when you do it as there are 2, one where they are both closed and one where they are "rocking" (the exhaust valve is closing at the end of the exhaust stroke and the intake is opening at the start of the intake stroke. If you can see the cam, you can identify the point where the valves rock and a rough check of valve timing can be made by verifying the piston is at tdc. Do not adjust the valves at this point, though. rotate the crank another 360 degrees so both rockers are on what's called the base circle of the cam. Then adjust the valves. Without going back through the whole thread I can't tell is you removed the piston. If not, you could have a pinched ring causing a loss of compression, too.
	0

08-24-2013, 09:27 PM	#89
Goose51683 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Indiana Posts: 621	Re: Tick tick clunk! Whoa whoa whoa....I didn't remove the entire piston etc but let's go back to the two possible scenarios at "TDC". ( please write out what TDC is. I assume its te location of te T mark) I put the engine at the T mark when I adjusted the valves but didn't pay any attention to the valves actual position, at least not any special attention. Ill add this to the list of things to check.
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08-25-2013, 04:22 AM	#90
alantf Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tenerife (Spain) Posts: 3,720	Re: Tick tick clunk! I'm no mechanic, but from what I've read on this site, the T mark can come up twice in the cycle - both when the piston is at top dead centre and bottom dead centre, so it's possible to get it 180Âº out. __________________ By birth an Englishman, by the grace of God a Yorkshireman.
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