"debris" in oil

[HumbleNewRider]

I changed the oil in my 15 year old Honda Shadow 600 that I recently bought. It had 77 miles on it. Had been in the neighbors garage the entire 15 years. Before I rode it, I replaced the fuel line, fuel filter, had the carburetors rebuilt, changed the oil and oil filter, plus several other things. Oil looked fine.

The bike now has 700 miles on it and has been running fine. No problems at all. I changed the oil this weekend and found flakes of some silver looking material. The flakes vary size, but are about the size the nail of your small finger --- to the size of your thumb nail. The material sort of looks like aluminum foil, but is more flexible. I'm pretty sure the flakes going into the drain pan from the oil filter -- as I noticed some "clumps" come out of the filter when I turned it upside down to drain into the drain pan. I thought the flakes might have been some type of metallic type label from the oil filter or something, but there's no writing on them. I don't know enough about the interior of an engine / transmission to know what they might have come off of.

Any ideas what this might be -- and what action I should take?

thanks....

[Water Warrior 2]

As Spock would say, "fascinating". Will the flakes stick to a magnet? You want to rule out metal first. If the debris is filter material you might be lucky. If you still have the old filter you might want to cut it open to determine if you have internal filter material that is defective and falling apart. Short of those ideas I am stumped. Wait till others chime in with ideas.

[fatoldfool]

My guess would be the assembly lube has settled to the bottom of the crankcase over the years and sort of solidified. Now you are running it the lube is softening and mixing back into the oil. I think I would get the engine good and hot then change the oil and filter again. May take a couple of changes.

[jonathan180iq]

I agree.
You need to do a couple more oil changes very close together.

Since the bike only had 77 original miles, and you are just now cracking it past 700, you're also probably going to see some side-effects of break in. During this period, fine metal shavings and glimmering oil with metal specs are not all that uncommon. Regardless of what it is, as long as it's a solid, the filter should catch most of it. If they were actual metal shavings that large, you would almost certainly hear some funny sounds coming from the motor while it was running.

I would take it on a good long ride, 50-100 miles or something like that. Change the oil again and see where you are. (It should be easier to see what's actually in there since you are now using clean oil. If this stuff has started to clear up, then I would just pour in some good stuff and not check it again for another 1,000 miles, which would be your break-in service period most likely anyway.

.....Thinking more on this, if the bike has just been sitting with old oil in it for 15 years, there will have been some chemical break-down of the oil and it would have become very acidic. You are going to have some wearing of internal parts because of that (like you main bearing) and having some flakes, shavings, debris is going to be pretty normal for this bike until you flush it all out. Does it smoke at all? I guess you would know by now, after more than 500 miles, if there were some really disastrous issues.
Either way, none of the little idiosyncrasies are a huge deal as long as the bike keeps running. You'll just have to stay more on-top of maintenance than most people would.

[Water Warrior 2]

Assembly lube............I would never had thought of that. Does sound so bad after all. I would imagine changing the rest of the fluids would be a good idea too. Brake fluid comes to mind if it hasn't been done. That and new rubber as the old but new looking tires are probably done because of age.

[HumbleNewRider]

Great suggestions.

Just to reiterate the background. I changed the oil and oil filter almost immediately after I bought my neighbor's 15 year old Honda, that only had 77 miles on it. Then about a week ago changed the oil and filter again --- for the 600 mile break-in. At that time, I found metalic "looking" flakes in the drain pan.

As suggested -- I drained the oil this weekend and also removed and inspected the filter. This was about 200 miles after I had done the prior oil change and found the flakes.

I found maybe 1/2 dozen tiny flakes, not many, in the drain pan. They were all much smaller than the diameter of a pencil eraser, but a bit larger than a pin head). I made a point of not dumping the oil filter into the pan this time. So, if they came from within the filter it was just as I was unscrewing it.

I put the oil filter back on and poured the oil back into the engine. I did check the flakes with a magnet first (that was a great idea! - wish I would have thought of that). They are not attracted to a magnet.

I had kept the old filter, so I cut the metal case off (using a Dremel) and lifted the filter out of the case. I couldn't see any evidence of anything flaking off any parts of the filter (and couldn't see any flakes anywhere in the filter. I would have expected at least a few larger flakes to be spread across the edges of a few of corrugated folds of the filter material. I did not cut into the filter material itself --- or attempt to spread it out --- to see how much material was trapped in there. Maybe I should have. I still have the filter.

The bike has 900 miles on it now. Maybe I'll go another 200 miles or so --- and actually change the oil this time. I just didn't see much in it. (Maybe the filter caught the rest.) As I now think about --- that's a good idea you all had to just keep changing out the oil several times

There hasn't been any smoking. The muffler seems to have gotten a little louder, but it isn't at all unreasonable --- just louder than when I first got it.

I haven't changed the brake fluid -- but that is on my list --- since it is 15 years old and I would presume has accumulated some moisture (based on what I've read happens to brake fluid). I replaced both tires. The front tire had some cracks. The rear tire didn't --- and was not brittle. It was actually rubbery everywhere i pushed in my finger nail. It was expensive, but I just felt safer replacing both tires. All the rubber seems good. (Battery had to be replaced of course.)

I'm wondering if something is flaking off the bottom of the engine when the engine oil drips off it during the oil change. I don't have a lift and can't get at an angle to see. I was in a hurry to finish up --- and couldn'f find a mirror to look for that. I'll do that when I change the oil again.

Water Warrior --- glad you suggested testing the material with a magnet. Although it is still a mystery -- it gives me a little comfort to know that it isn't hard metal anyway.

thanks!

[Water Warrior 2]

Yippee, sounds like you have a runner. A few flakes are common to begin with and not unexpected. You can get a reasonable eyeball on the bottom of the engine from the right side while the bike is leaning to the left on the side stand.
A good idea may be to go over the entire bike and check for loose fittings and nuts and bolts.
Handle bars, triple clamps, fender bolts, foot peg mounts etc. I generally go over a bike top to bottom when new. Then again after a few thousand miles. Foot controls, suspension parts, lights for snugness. I do not however try to tighten any nuts or bolts involving the engine head or cylinder. Fittings for the cases maybe but I won't tamper with engine assembly torque values and have to assume they were done correctly in Japan.
Oh yeah, check for the rubber boots that hold the carb in position. There should be one each on the intake and discharge sides. The clamps could be loose and cause an air leak which you don't want ever.
Lights........I would change them all for new ones. Even unused tungsten bulbs will not be as bright as new ones after laying about for years on end. You needn't get fancy with LEDs or anything, just new tungsten bulbs and a new halogen headlight bulb. Halogen does dim somewhat too no matter what they say. Oh I could have so much fun spending your $$$. :lol: :lol:

[alantf]

Originally Posted by Water Warrior

A good idea may be to go over the entire bike and check for loose fittings and nuts and bolts.

A quick note here for GZ riders. I posted this a coupla years ago, but newbies probably won't have seen it .............The two bolts I never even thought to check were the ones holding the saddle lock to the side panel. Everything seemed ok until the day I went to unlock the saddle, and found the lock swinging on the cable, somewhere in the depths of the side panel. Eventually managed to hook it, then spent a long time trying to get the key in. Found that the two bolts had vibrated loose over time, and were gone. Give 'em a check folks, and save yourself some pain.

[fatoldfool]

Flashings (thin small flat strips or pieces) are not uncommon in cast aluminum assemblies like small motors, some are formed by mold separations and somewhere along the line someone is supposed to break or grind them off. How much or how many depends on the manufacturers quality control and how proud of his job the worker resposible felt that day. These aluminum flakes won't catch on a magnet. I am just throwing that out, and I don't think that is the original posters problem. I have done a bit of work on "classics" ( read junk that has been sitting for years) and an accumulation of silvery gunk is common in the bottom of oil pans and the depressions in cylinder heads of overhead valve engines. You should have seen the accumulation in a 1929 Buick engine that had done duty as a sawmill engine until about 1954, then sat until 2008. I have been told its a combination of broken down oil and acids. Whatever it is, it takes a really stiff brush and kerosene or diesel oil to clean it up. The reason I think the original posters problem is assembly lube, a lot of manufacturers use a product like Lubriplate (silvery thick paste) as assembly lube, and of course the break-in oil dissolves it and out it goes with the first oil change, looking very much like metalflake. Sorry for the long post...