Start-up Problem - Page 5

**jonathan180iq** · 10-03-2011, 05:02 PM

1.) You won't be able to visually see the contaminant in the carb, if there is one. All it takes is a tiny piece of debris the right place.
Since you have the carb off, a quick tear down and some carb spray in the right places can do wonders. If you remove the top black plastic cover, make sure you are aware that there is a spring under there that can pop out. It's not under a ton of pressure. But just be aware of it. Slide all that stuff out, and then spray come carb cleaner in any and all holes that you can access. (The top plastic cover gives access to the needle)

IIRC, the float bowl screws are not pre-sunk. You can use a set of locking pliers to grab the heads and twist them free. That will allow you to access the main jets and pilot holes to clean them as well. It doesn't take too much spray. Just get the nozzle right up in there and blast away.

There may very well be nothing wrong with the carb, since we're still not able to narrow down your actual issue. But at least you'll know the carb is clean.

2.)As for the spark plug, you should be able to just clean off any residue that is on there and reinsert the old one while you wait for a new one. Clean the electrode and regap the thing and it should work like new. You can even spray the tip with some carb cleaner to make sure there isn't a layer or crud built up.

3.) The hose that you are going to drain from the air box should be the one that has a little plastic plug and a pressure clamp on it. Release the pressure clamp, pull the plug, and some oily gunk will come out. Reinsert the plug and drain that thing again every few months.

At this time, you can also pull the air filter cover, remove the air filter and visually inspect the inside of your airbox. Smelling oily/gassy is normal. But it shouldn't be half filled with liquid.

4.) As mentioned by others, now is a good time to charge up the battery, and do some other necessary maintenance. I would also check your throttle play, as described in the service manual, check your chain tension and air up the tires or anything else that you might have overlooked in the last couple of weeks/months.

Is some of this overkill for a starting problem? Maybe it is. But by the time you are finished with everything, you;ll have a maintenance free ride for the next good little while. I call them maintenance days, where I give just about every system on the bike a once over and catch up as needed. And there is no better time to do all of this stuff than while you already have it torn apart. And once you've done it the first time, you'll know how everything works and how to put it back together in no time at all.

-Jonathan

bjrscj · 10-04-2011, 05:46 PM

I still feel overwhelmed, but I do feel like I'm at least narrowing down the problems.

Today I cleaned the spark plug, cleaned the carb, checked the hoses, changed the gas, drained the air box, and got the battery charged.

When I went to start the bike, it was beautiful. It started up perfectly. But after I let it run for a little, the smoke came back, and there was a leak again. I shut it off so no more damage could be done, and I took pictures so I could show you what I saw.

The first picture shows where I think the leak is coming from. It's at the top front of the engine - there's a little compartment with two screws on it. There was moisture all over the place, as it was dripping and evaporating onto things. It was hard to tell exactly where it was coming from, but most of it looked like it was coming from here. It was dripping all over the front of the engine and exhaust, but it seems like the highest wet place is probably the best place to start for a source.

[attachment=2:3sowur7f]021.JPG[/attachment:3sowur7f]

This is another picture that points it out a little better.

[attachment=1:3sowur7f]022.JPG[/attachment:3sowur7f]

This is the right side of the engine (there wasn't any dripping on the left side, even though the stand causes it to lean that way). I think this is just from evaporation, but just showing what happened.

[attachment=0:3sowur7f]023.JPG[/attachment:3sowur7f]

alantf · 10-04-2011, 06:33 PM

That "little compartment" is the cover for the exhaust valves. Have you checked the valves for correct setting lately? Seems like it could be that the valves need adjustment.

blaine · 10-04-2011, 06:38 PM

I think the moisture your seeing is just the bike warming up.The plate with the two holes is for adjusting the valves,and is sealed with a o-ring.If there is a leak there,it will be oil,not moisture.Did you let the bike run to warm up,so the moisture would disappear,and then check for leaks?
:??:

bjrscj · 10-04-2011, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blaine

I think the moisture your seeing is just the bike warming up.The plate with the two holes is for adjusting the valves,and is sealed with a o-ring.If there is a leak there,it will be oil,not moisture.Did you let the bike run to warm up,so the moisture would disappear,and then check for leaks?
:??:

I'm sorry I wasn't clear on what I saw in the "moisture." It definitely wasn't water. It was thicker/darker than gas, but not as dark as old oil or the gunk that came out of the air box drain. It was a light amber color (like bourbon).

I did let the bike run to warm up a bit, but then it started smoking a whiteish smoke. The last time that happened was before everything went dead. The last time I let it run it died out on its own - which didn't seem like the smartest thing to me. I thought I could do damage if I let it run like that - but I could definitely be wrong.

As far as seeing leaks, like I said, it looked like it was coming from that one place and dripping down the front/right of the engine. I didn't see any leaks that appeared to be coming from hoses - unless there is a fluid hose above the front part of the engine. All I saw were electrical wires above that.

** I have not checked the exhaust valve settings, but I will do that tomorrow morning. And just to make sure I understand what you're saying, I need to check the angle of the valves and their deflection (which is what the service manual sounds like it's saying). What exactly is deflection?

blaine · 10-04-2011, 10:43 PM

From your pictures I don't see anything that indicates a oil leak. If there is a leak it is likely coming from the valve adjustment cover or the valve cover on top of the engine.You need to wipe every clean and dry,start the bike & check for any oil leaks.When you adjust the valves,you are adjusting the space between the stem of the valve & the rocker.This job is quite involved and can be hard to do if you don't understand the basics of a 4 stroke engine.You could do serious damage that can ruin your engine.At this point I think you should concern yourself with the leak first.If you attempt to adjust the valves,the bike has to be overnight cold,before adjustment.I'm not trying to discourage you,I just don't to see you get in over your head.If you think you may want to tackle the valve adjustment,you should study this in depth:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5061&p=55006#p55006
Also are you sure that it's white smoke you are seeing,and not steam from the engine warming up?

:cool:

blaine · 10-04-2011, 10:58 PM

Quote:I've got a 2003 and it's been running great. However, after the weekend, I went to start up the bike, and it won't start. It turns very strongly, but it won't catch. It's sounds like the engines fine but the gas won't ignite and give that nice low rumble (well, low compared to just turning). Is this a starter issue? My only guess is that it rained for a few days and I didn't have a chance to cover my bike. Could that even affect it at all? That's the only thing out of the ordinary that happened recently:

I still think this is a problem that got escalated all because the bike got wet.

:cool:

**jonathan180iq** · 10-05-2011, 08:59 AM

You have obviously taken care of the hard starting issue, since, as you said, it fired up first time after all of your cleaning and maintenance.
That alone should make you pretty happy! Good job!

The light amber color has to be oil. Oil that drains back into the sump (the place where oil stays when it's not running) will look nasty and black like it's supposed to. But when thinning out by spread out over the rest of the engine can still look like the light amber color of clean oil.

There are only two liquids on this bike; gas and oil. There is nothing else that could be leaking except that. You know what gas looks like and smells like, so that leaves oil.

As mentioned by others, if your eyes are correct as to where the leak is coming from, you have a slight leak from under your valve cover.
Sounds like it's leaking out right there, dripping onto your headers and burning off. You could always take a 10mm socket and make sure those bolts are tight. Things work loose on a bike. An occasional snugging up is common place.

Finally, the little seepage that you have around that side black plug doesn't look like a big deal. Bikes will seep black gunk from time to time. That one looks pretty normal.

I would crank it up again, rev it a few good times to make sure it sounds normal, and then immediately take it out for a ride around the block. Don't drive too far away from the house, just in case. But you won't know if you really have an issue until you open her up a little bit.

To me it sounds like you've already taken care of the important part, which was the hard starting. And, like I said, Kudos for that!

Keep at it man. You're 90% of the way there.

Gz Rider · 10-05-2011, 09:20 AM

...

bjrscj · 10-05-2011, 09:26 AM

Well, I went to start the bike again this morning, and it wouldn't crank. The lights dimmed as I tried to start it, and it got weaker each time. I guess I'm getting a new battery. The guy who charged it yesterday told me it held a charge, but it might be bad - but he wasn't sure because he was using a car battery kit to check the charge and thought it might be different. I also tightened up the bolts, so it'll be ready to go as soon as I get a battery.

Right now I'll probably order from this site that another user gave me (http://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26 ... IR_CLEANER) unless anyone knows any better places. Thanks for all your help.

10-03-2011, 05:02 PM	#41
jonathan180iq Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dalton, GA Posts: 3,996	Re: Start-up Problem 1.) You won't be able to visually see the contaminant in the carb, if there is one. All it takes is a tiny piece of debris the right place. Since you have the carb off, a quick tear down and some carb spray in the right places can do wonders. If you remove the top black plastic cover, make sure you are aware that there is a spring under there that can pop out. It's not under a ton of pressure. But just be aware of it. Slide all that stuff out, and then spray come carb cleaner in any and all holes that you can access. (The top plastic cover gives access to the needle) IIRC, the float bowl screws are not pre-sunk. You can use a set of locking pliers to grab the heads and twist them free. That will allow you to access the main jets and pilot holes to clean them as well. It doesn't take too much spray. Just get the nozzle right up in there and blast away. There may very well be nothing wrong with the carb, since we're still not able to narrow down your actual issue. But at least you'll know the carb is clean. 2.)As for the spark plug, you should be able to just clean off any residue that is on there and reinsert the old one while you wait for a new one. Clean the electrode and regap the thing and it should work like new. You can even spray the tip with some carb cleaner to make sure there isn't a layer or crud built up. 3.) The hose that you are going to drain from the air box should be the one that has a little plastic plug and a pressure clamp on it. Release the pressure clamp, pull the plug, and some oily gunk will come out. Reinsert the plug and drain that thing again every few months. At this time, you can also pull the air filter cover, remove the air filter and visually inspect the inside of your airbox. Smelling oily/gassy is normal. But it shouldn't be half filled with liquid. 4.) As mentioned by others, now is a good time to charge up the battery, and do some other necessary maintenance. I would also check your throttle play, as described in the service manual, check your chain tension and air up the tires or anything else that you might have overlooked in the last couple of weeks/months. Is some of this overkill for a starting problem? Maybe it is. But by the time you are finished with everything, you;ll have a maintenance free ride for the next good little while. I call them maintenance days, where I give just about every system on the bike a once over and catch up as needed. And there is no better time to do all of this stuff than while you already have it torn apart. And once you've done it the first time, you'll know how everything works and how to put it back together in no time at all. -Jonathan Login or Register to Remove Ads
	0

10-04-2011, 05:46 PM	#42
bjrscj Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Atlanta Posts: 57	Re: Start-up Problem I still feel overwhelmed, but I do feel like I'm at least narrowing down the problems. Today I cleaned the spark plug, cleaned the carb, checked the hoses, changed the gas, drained the air box, and got the battery charged. When I went to start the bike, it was beautiful. It started up perfectly. But after I let it run for a little, the smoke came back, and there was a leak again. I shut it off so no more damage could be done, and I took pictures so I could show you what I saw. The first picture shows where I think the leak is coming from. It's at the top front of the engine - there's a little compartment with two screws on it. There was moisture all over the place, as it was dripping and evaporating onto things. It was hard to tell exactly where it was coming from, but most of it looked like it was coming from here. It was dripping all over the front of the engine and exhaust, but it seems like the highest wet place is probably the best place to start for a source. [attachment=2:3sowur7f]021.JPG[/attachment:3sowur7f] This is another picture that points it out a little better. [attachment=1:3sowur7f]022.JPG[/attachment:3sowur7f] This is the right side of the engine (there wasn't any dripping on the left side, even though the stand causes it to lean that way). I think this is just from evaporation, but just showing what happened. [attachment=0:3sowur7f]023.JPG[/attachment:3sowur7f]
	0

10-04-2011, 06:33 PM	#43
alantf Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tenerife (Spain) Posts: 3,719	Re: Start-up Problem That "little compartment" is the cover for the exhaust valves. Have you checked the valves for correct setting lately? Seems like it could be that the valves need adjustment. __________________ By birth an Englishman, by the grace of God a Yorkshireman. Login or Register to Remove Ads
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10-04-2011, 06:38 PM	#44
blaine Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: P.E.I. Canada Posts: 3,784	Re: Start-up Problem I think the moisture your seeing is just the bike warming up.The plate with the two holes is for adjusting the valves,and is sealed with a o-ring.If there is a leak there,it will be oil,not moisture.Did you let the bike run to warm up,so the moisture would disappear,and then check for leaks? :??: __________________ If at first you do succeed, try not to look surprised.
	0

10-04-2011, 10:43 PM	#46
blaine Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: P.E.I. Canada Posts: 3,784	Re: Start-up Problem From your pictures I don't see anything that indicates a oil leak. If there is a leak it is likely coming from the valve adjustment cover or the valve cover on top of the engine.You need to wipe every clean and dry,start the bike & check for any oil leaks.When you adjust the valves,you are adjusting the space between the stem of the valve & the rocker.This job is quite involved and can be hard to do if you don't understand the basics of a 4 stroke engine.You could do serious damage that can ruin your engine.At this point I think you should concern yourself with the leak first.If you attempt to adjust the valves,the bike has to be overnight cold,before adjustment.I'm not trying to discourage you,I just don't to see you get in over your head.If you think you may want to tackle the valve adjustment,you should study this in depth: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5061&p=55006#p55006 Also are you sure that it's white smoke you are seeing,and not steam from the engine warming up? :cool: __________________ If at first you do succeed, try not to look surprised.
	0

10-04-2011, 10:58 PM	#47
blaine Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: P.E.I. Canada Posts: 3,784	Re: Start-up Problem Quote:I've got a 2003 and it's been running great. However, after the weekend, I went to start up the bike, and it won't start. It turns very strongly, but it won't catch. It's sounds like the engines fine but the gas won't ignite and give that nice low rumble (well, low compared to just turning). Is this a starter issue? My only guess is that it rained for a few days and I didn't have a chance to cover my bike. Could that even affect it at all? That's the only thing out of the ordinary that happened recently: I still think this is a problem that got escalated all because the bike got wet. :cool: __________________ If at first you do succeed, try not to look surprised.
	0

10-05-2011, 08:59 AM	#48
jonathan180iq Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dalton, GA Posts: 3,996	Re: Start-up Problem You have obviously taken care of the hard starting issue, since, as you said, it fired up first time after all of your cleaning and maintenance. That alone should make you pretty happy! Good job! The light amber color has to be oil. Oil that drains back into the sump (the place where oil stays when it's not running) will look nasty and black like it's supposed to. But when thinning out by spread out over the rest of the engine can still look like the light amber color of clean oil. There are only two liquids on this bike; gas and oil. There is nothing else that could be leaking except that. You know what gas looks like and smells like, so that leaves oil. As mentioned by others, if your eyes are correct as to where the leak is coming from, you have a slight leak from under your valve cover. Sounds like it's leaking out right there, dripping onto your headers and burning off. You could always take a 10mm socket and make sure those bolts are tight. Things work loose on a bike. An occasional snugging up is common place. Finally, the little seepage that you have around that side black plug doesn't look like a big deal. Bikes will seep black gunk from time to time. That one looks pretty normal. I would crank it up again, rev it a few good times to make sure it sounds normal, and then immediately take it out for a ride around the block. Don't drive too far away from the house, just in case. But you won't know if you really have an issue until you open her up a little bit. To me it sounds like you've already taken care of the important part, which was the hard starting. And, like I said, Kudos for that! Keep at it man. You're 90% of the way there.
	0

10-05-2011, 09:20 AM	#49
Gz Rider Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 852	Re: Start-up Problem ... __________________ *Alert - This person is a douche. Use these comments and advice at your own risk*
	0

10-05-2011, 09:26 AM	#50
bjrscj Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Atlanta Posts: 57	Re: Start-up Problem Well, I went to start the bike again this morning, and it wouldn't crank. The lights dimmed as I tried to start it, and it got weaker each time. I guess I'm getting a new battery. The guy who charged it yesterday told me it held a charge, but it might be bad - but he wasn't sure because he was using a car battery kit to check the charge and thought it might be different. I also tightened up the bolts, so it'll be ready to go as soon as I get a battery. Right now I'll probably order from this site that another user gave me (http://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26 ... IR_CLEANER) unless anyone knows any better places. Thanks for all your help.
	0