Howdy from the plains.

[Easy Rider]

Originally Posted by alanmcorcoran

Perhaps you didn't actually read my post.

Perhaps you need to read your OWN post again.......and consider how it sounds......as opposed to what you may have intended.....although I suspect it reflects what you intended perfectly.

"if you take your time, do a little research on the Internet, and, if you can afford it, buy and read Proficient Motorcycling, you'll be fine. "

You might be "fine" but the overwhelming opinion (not just mine) and available statistics both indicate that the odds are "you" will be much more likely to be "fine" if you get some formal training.

[mrlmd1]

To add to this - to buy a motorcycle and think you can learn how to ride it and teach yourself over time is basically not wise. Just like you are studying architecture - do you think you can design a well functioning building or bridge just by trial and error over time? If so, what are you going to school for? To learn, right? There are things that would be taught to you in the MSF class that you would never even dream of, and that class is designed not only to teach you how to ride, but to ride safe, to keep you from getting injured or killed. If there wasn't some kind of need for them, the courses wouldn't be given and many states require them before you can get an endorsement on your driver's license in order to ride one. I've read both of the Proficient, and More Proficient Motorcycle Riding books, and while they are a quick read and enjoyable, no way do they replace the value of the classroom and hands-on instruction of the MSF class where there is someone demonstrating, watching you, and critiquing your riding techniques to give you some skills. Like I said on another post somewhere on here, it's cheap enough, it's easier to learn how to do it right the first time rather than to try and unlearn bad habits, it's an investment of a weekend's time, and it's cheaper and less time consuming than going to the ER or having an extended stay in the hospital.

[bigvariable]

Originally Posted by Easy Rider

How are your bicycle skills and experience? It is important that you can ride a bicycle before you move up to a motorcycle.....honestly.

I love bicycles. In junior high school, I rode a bicycle to school every day. I've ridden just about every type of bike, mountain, BMX, road bikes, and taught myself to ride no-hands style. Haha.

But thanks for all the advice, guys. I think I'm pretty much set on a GZ instead of a Rebel. It really all depends on how much I can sell my car for.

[mrlmd1]

You, like everyone else on here who comes looking for advice, will take away that advice that seems to be what he wants to hear, rather than what may be best. So, if you want to teach yourself, then read as much as you can, books, other websites, videos, etc, go slow, and practice, practice, practice, before you dash out into unexpected territory. I personally don't think riding a bike and a motorcycle are close except for initial balance, as the speeds on a motorcycle, the steering at both low and high speeds, and the weight, is drastically different, and the use of front and rear brakes either alone or in combination, is quite different for different maneuvers on a motorcycle. But I guess you will learn that, maybe, eventually by yourself, if you manage to stay upright. Welcome to our forum and be safe. And the GZ is the best bike all around, reliable, simple to work on, inexpensive to maintain, and help is always on here.

[Water Warrior 2]

bigvariable, welcome to the forum and it's dueling members. As you can see there are different camps when rider training comes up. Here's my take on the subject. Rider training is the best life insurance you can buy and you get to use it everyday. As for being self taught, ask me if I think I learned anything from lessons after street riding accident free for over 40 years. Learned a lot, and unlearning bad habits was the hardest. I had to retrain a lot of muscle memory stuff. Riding is much less tiring and more relaxing even in heavier traffic. Oh before I forget, you should(in my opinion)have armored riding gear in case of an oops. Ride Safe.

[Easy Rider]

Originally Posted by mrlmd1

I personally don't think riding a bike and a motorcycle are close except for initial balance, ..........

Balance IS a pretty important thing, don't you think? :poke2: :biggrin:

Some (all?) MSF courses won't accept students that cannot demonstrate the ability to ride a bicycle.

And, just for the record, I never took a course or read a how-to book ever in my ~42 year riding career. I did, however, spend the first 3 years or so on a REALLY small bike (Honda S90), mostly riding across dirt and gravel roads and farm pastures.....even in the winter in ice and snow and occasionally mud. When I started there were no classes and no special drivers license. (There were SOME paved roads..... :biggrin: )

I have survived riding for 40 years so it is possible.

I recommend that all new riders take the course for three main reasons:

I had some bad habits from being self-trained. One was an aversion to the front brake.....which I quickly unlearned. I somehow also got in the habit of leaning the wrong way in turns. I did that for SO long.....maybe 10 years or more, that it took me about 2 years to UN-learn it and I still catch myself doing it wrong occasionally.

ALL of the motorcycle guru's and "expert" riders and the major bike magazines and the Insurance Institute and the NTSB and ON AND ON.....ALL recommend taking the course. Nobody that I know of recommends NOT taking it.......except a few ill-advised individuals.

And lastly, many of the folks who are on the fence about taking the course are YOUNG first time riders. Most older first time riders who know about the course don't question it's desirability. The things you learn, right or wrong, when you are young are the things that stick with you the longest. So, if you learn it wrong when you are young and just starting out, it may be VERY difficult to re-learn it the right way.

[roncg41677]

Originally Posted by Easy Rider

The things you learn, right or wrong, when you are young are the things that stick with you the longest. So, if you learn it wrong when you are young and just starting out, it may be VERY difficult to re-learn it the right way.

:plus1:
Learn it right the first time. Better to find out what happens when you grab the front brake with the wheel turned at a slow speed in a controlled environment than in a parking lot or on the street.

[alanmcorcoran]

I've posted my review of MSF elsewhere and I stand by it. The short version: 13 hours of either sitting watching videos (which you can do at home [Thanks Patrick!]) or sitting on the bike combined with 2 hours of actual riding, 1 of which is duck walking around and basic stuff like shifting into first. Yes, there are some tips, but all of this is covered much more efficiently in Proficient Motorcycling. Perhaps the course is not the same everywhere. I did find it funny that Easy is taking me to task for having an opinion about a course I took, (and aced) when he has not taken it himself.

I also went to college and, except for the women, parties and other distractions, I thought that was even a bigger waste of time (for me, anyway.)

...and ronc, I don't know exactly what your point is, but, as I said, I took the course, passed it with flying colors and it didn't prevent me from dropping my bike. Perhaps if more time was spent on actual practice and instruction instead of effing around with cones, or the other six riders, or lining up the bikes in formation, or reading the instructor's manual or the testing, or the rest of the time wasting.

As Sarris is done with helmets, and Dupo is done with pipes, I'm done with the MSF.

[Easy Rider]

Originally Posted by alanmcorcoran

I also went to college and, except for the women, parties and other distractions, I thought that was even a bigger waste of time (for me, anyway.)

As Sarris is done with helmets, and Dupo is done with pipes, I'm done with the MSF.

Well THAT pretty much tells the whole story then, doesn't it! I agree, college is for dummies......so much so that I dropped out after 3 semesters.....oh, hell, I flunked out .....due to women, parties and other distractions !!! :roll:

Let me try this ONE more time, Alan. I don't mean for one second that you should not express your honest opinion or describe your life experineces and they way they affected YOU.

What I DO think is irresponsible behavior is to encourage OTHERS, whom you don't really know a thing about, to go against the conventional wisdom with the disclaimer "you will be fine".
There is a BIG difference. I know you are intelligent enough to know that......if you just pull in your claws for a second and think about it.

And yes, from what I have heard most MSF classes are MUCH different than what you described. I believe the one here includes 2 half days of on-the-bike instruction and practice, in addition to the classroom time.

Now I'm done chewing on Alan about the MSF.......so you can add me to the list with Sarris and Dupo.......oh, and anybody who believes any of THAT should contact me about some ocean front property in Nebraska that I have for sale. :whistle: :biggrin:

[roncg41677]

Originally Posted by alanmcorcoran

...and ronc, I don't know exactly what your point is, but, as I said, I took the course, passed it with flying colors and it didn't prevent me from dropping my bike. Perhaps if more time was spent on actual practice and instruction instead of effing around with cones, or the other six riders, or lining up the bikes in formation, or reading the instructor's manual or the testing, or the rest of the time wasting.

As Sarris is done with helmets, and Dupo is done with pipes, I'm done with the MSF.

Alan, sounds like the course you took was either over-crowded or your teacher just wasn't that good. Mine was nothing like that. Lots of good helpful insight from our facilitator. I could understand why that would be a waste of money. We had lots of time actually running through exercises with good instruction at the front and good observation and feedback during. By the time we were done almost all of us could handle the bike pretty well (especially considering how some of us were coming into it )

Locking up your brakes while you're practicing an emergency stop with a trained rider watching and telling you exactly what you did wrong is much more desirable than locking them up in rush hour traffic when the car in front of you stops suddenly. At least that's my opinion. That was my point.

...and for the record, I'm done with hijacking welcome threads. :biggrin: