Pushing on the pegs to help you lean

[dhgeyer]

I am going to add one more post to this thread. Two more things to add.

1. Being an open minded guy (sometimes) I just now did a little experiment. I took the GZ250 out and tried some footpeg pressing and leaning at various constant speeds with no handlebar inputs. Kind of fun. Reminded me of downhill skiing. It works pretty well on the GZ. Not sure I could get around a corner that way without a lot of practice, but it definitely has a control effect, and could be used in conjunction with countersteering. Then I parked the GZ and got out my 2006 Kawasaki Concours. This is a sport touring bike that weighs somewhere between 650 and 700 pounds fully fueled and with the stuff I have on and in it. I tried the same experiment. At speeds under 30 mph pressing on a single footpeg had some minor effect, but not enough to be of any practical use. At speeds over 40 I could actually stand on one peg only and have no discernible effect. I had a bit more luck with leaning up to about 45, but only with a fair amount of effort for a very small return. Nothing a slight flick of the handlebars couldn't do better. The Concours, in addition to being heavy is also known for being overly top heavy. Not one of its best features, although it is only really noticeable at slow speeds, or trying to push the thing into the garage.

2. One of the exercises in the MSF Basic Rider Course involves swerving. This exercise is done during the course, and also as part of the test that you have to pass to get your certificate. Basically you have to ride between two entry cones at a certain minimum speed, and then get around one or the other (left or right) of two other cones a short distance from the entry cones, and offset to the side. Then you have to straighten out to your original direction of travel in order to avoid hitting another cone. It's not hard for an experienced rider, but for a newbie it can be a challenge. In the exercise part of it, a Rider Coach stands behind the swerve area and indicates at some point during your approach which way you are to swerve. In the test part, everyone swerves to the left. The instructions for this exercise state very plainly that the way to do it is with two presses on the handlebars in rapid succession. If swerving left, for example, press the left handlebar to avoid the cone you want to miss, then press right to straighten out. Press Press. They hammer this point. Nothing about leaning. Nothing.

During the training I took to be a Rider Coach, we must have practiced this exercise dozens, no, scores of times. We learned to teach the course by teaching each other, so we did a lot of riding. I am convinced that it saved my life, and my wife's life. Two years ago a car pulled out in front of us on a U.S. 2 lane highway. We were going about the speed limit - 55 mph. The young lady driving the car was stopped at a side road stop sign. She showed none of the usual signs of not seeing us. The wheels of her car were not moving, and she was looking straight in our direction. No cell phone. At the last moment, the worst possible moment, out she came. There was no time to think, and I cannot claim credit for quick thinking. What happened is a testament to the concept of "muscle memory", or, in other words, when you have to react automatically, what you do is what you have trained yourself to do every day. With no conscious thought, I pressed the left handlebar hard, then the right. We did not, as most riders in that situation would have, T-Bone the car. The swerve worked well enough to get us in front of her. Bad news is she hit my right saddlebag hard enough to knock us off the bike. I came out OK, my wife was very badly hurt. I am convinced that if we had T-Boned her, we would have both been killed, as I had not even touched the brakes (no time), and we were still going 50 or 55. People don't generally survive that.

This is why I am very adamant that new riders should learn to control the bike by countersteering. Other inputs can be fun, and have an effect, particularly on smaller bikes. But in an emergency situation, you want to have practiced doing the most effective thing you can do, and you want it to be automatic.

This thread is in a section of the forum for beginners. I address this to the beginners. You are the people we are supposed to be trying to help. Read all of the above posts. Think about it. Agree with me, or disagree with me. Experiment yourself. By all means take the course. Make up your own mind.

[Easy Rider]

Originally Posted by dhgeyer

This is why I am very adamant that new riders should learn to control the bike by countersteering. Other inputs can be fun, and have an effect, particularly on smaller bikes. But in an emergency situation, you want to have practiced doing the most effective thing you can do, and you want it to be automatic.

If you really want to be objective about the subject matter AND how you are presenting it......then it might be useful to continue the discussion. If not, then not.

One cannot learn to turn a motorcyle without countersteering; you just can't do it....as your tests kind of prove. No arguement there.

I would propose that during those tests, one of the reasons that you didn't get a lot of effect, especially with the leaning/shifting weight part, is because your mind unconsciously caused you to countersteer to counteract the effect a bit.....because you are somewhat unfamiliar with the technique and the feeling it causes. It is almost impossible NOT to do that.

Swerving is NOT the same as normal turning. Different techniques apply. Your brain knows the difference and easily learns to do different things in different conditions. Just because an emergency swerve requires only bar input to quickly and efficiently accomplish the manuver does NOT mean that normal turns have to be done that way too. Even though you don't seem to think that your mind can seperate the two distinct operations, it really CAN.
(Read that again.)

So, what you are saying is largely right.......but there appears to be a flaw in your logic.

Yes, new riders have to learn to countersteer, and.....
Yes, that's the only appropriate steering input for a swerve manuver......
BUT
That does NOT also mean that one should not learn a co-ordinated turning technique that combines bar pressure, shifting of weight (or leaning) and peg pressure (if you have a bike that reasonably allows it) as they progress past the beginner stage. Turns done with all the available inputs, with practice, tend to be smoother and more comfortable.....and you have more options to make corrections, if and when one is necessary.

The post that started this thread clearly comes from a relatively new rider that has just "discovered" a new steering input......and he likes it. There is absolutely no sound logical reason to suspect, or assume, that learning a more complete steering technique will in any way degrade your ability to swerve in an emergency. It just won't.

(I would have put "Period" at the end of that sentence but I think that conveys a smug and ego-centric attitude and I don't use it........even though I might BE smug and egocentric, there is no reason to flaunt it !!)

[alanmcorcoran]

Hey dh...

At the risk of attracting unwanted attention... a few points.

1) You will find that certain observations made on here will attract certain people to assert their (opposing) opinions, forcefully and relentlessly, generally long past the point of your interest. When this happens to me, I find it's best to just not respond anymore. I won't go into specifics, but lets just say I've been in the minority on a few of my opinions.

2) The majority of visitors to the site do not post much but do read a lot of the threads (lurkers, if you will.) Leaving aside choices of words, etc. I found your post to be interesting, particularly since I ride a very heavy bike and I don't shift my weight or do anything with my feet. Anyway, hope you'll continue to post as I like to hear a variety of viewpoints, even if I don't agree with them.

3) I think when you countersteer, you are effectively causing you AND the bike to lean. I think there is a difference between that "leaning" and the deliberate shifting of one's body weight. I do the first and not the second. I think the bike HAS to be leaned to turn, yes?

4) I had a similar, though less consequential experience with the "swerve." Just about a month ago, someone just shot out blindly in front of me in a parking lot. I did the swerve, (and also hit the front brakes - but lighty and just for a second!) I had dropped my bike once previously from swerving and braking in another parking lot and I guess I trained myself not to clamp down unless I'm going straight. My front tire skidded a bit, but I recovered, avoided the car and went on my way. Someone that watched all of this go down would have thought I was an expert, but it all happened before I could think. Rather than be rattled by the near miss, I felt pretty good about it afterwards. Sorry things did not come out so good for your wife.

[dhgeyer]

Alan,

Thank you for taking the time to make the above post. It is much appreciated. I agree with everything you say. And, yes, one way or another the bike must lean in order to turn, unless you're pushing it around the driveway or parking lot. Or unless it's a trike or sidecar rig, which are a whole different subject entirely, and one I know absolutely nothing about!

This forum isn't really any different than many others I have been on. It seems that the same personality types keep cropping up with different names and points of view. As you say, you have to know when you have said everything you have to say on a subject, and then let the readers decide. And have a bit of a thick skin.

I do sometimes bring it on myself, in that I get too active posting (posting too much) too soon. I think that someone who had been around longer could be just as opinionated as I am and not make so many waves. I think I'll kind of cool it for a while. After all, my main reason for joining the forum is that this bike is new to me, and I want a source of information for myself on certain topics. I should ask more questions and pontificate less, at least for a while.

[bonehead]

My 2 cents: I lean to turn, countersteer to swerve.

[mrlmd1]

One last point - a 2 wheeled bike cannot turn from a straight path unless it leans, going slow or fast, handlebars turned or not.
We all know, at slow speed, bars must be turned in the direction of the turn, at higher speeds, countersteering is what initiates it. In either case, the bike is leaning, it's the geometry of the system, Whatever it takes you to lean the bike, whatever you think works for you, do it, it's all the same result in the end. It has to do with leaning, shifting center of gravity, centrifugal and centripetal forces, (all forces must be in balance or it falls over one way or the other), etc. Let's not get into an argument over the laws of physics which we cannot change.

[mr. softie]

Mrlmd1 summed it up nicely. dhgeyer makes good points and handled himself better than I would. Easy Rider was true to form and always brings a thought provoking viewpoint. Alan has brought perspective and a calming voice to the discussion. I ramble on.

It is kind of funny to think of now, but the first people to advocate and ride using counter steering were considered at the time to be lunatics. A basic foundation of riding technique that we all take pretty much for granted now was once ridiculed by the general consensus. Using the front brake was in the same boat.

This thread started with an observation that weighing or pushing on the pegs has some effect on turning the GZ, which I thought was interesting because I was never able to put much weight on the pegs of my GZ, the pegs being so far in front of my butt. Pushing on the pegs was possible though , and involved pulling on the bars at the same time to keep from sliding backwards on the seat. Pushing on one peg with my foot had the consequence of pulling with the opposite hand, effectively causing a counter steer to happen, consciously or not.

This is opposite of what a road racer does when he uses the outside peg to help him push the inside bar, but has the same effect. I would have to say though, that counter steering has by far the largest effect on leaning any bike, and that pushing the pegs sometimes helps us counter steer, whether we are conscious of it or not.

Leaning the body (I know I am off topic here) also involves pushing the pegs and the bars to some degree, as our bodies are all connected. The foot bone connected to the leg bone, the leg bone connected to the hip bone, the hip bone connected to the body bone....

[Easy Rider]

Originally Posted by mr. softie

dhgeyer makes good points and handled himself better than I would.

Easy Rider was true to form and always brings a thought provoking viewpoint.

Ah, yes but YOU wouldn't have stormed in like the proverbial bull in the china shop, implying that ONLY YOU knows the real truth and so everybody else is obviously wrong. :roll:

And since you were "kind" with your remarks about me, I will stop right there. :cool:

[mrlmd1]

Way to go, right on, Mr. Softie, about pushing the peg, pulling the bar. No comment about anything or anybody else.
Hard to believe we are actually ragging on each other (maybe the wrong choice of words, but you get the idea) for this when we are all basically doing the same thing and manage to accomplish the same goal.
After a while it becomes so automatic that we don't even think about what we are doing when we steer the bike, ie., we are aware of what's happening and how to make what we want to happen. As long as we don't slide off the turn or hit something, we don't consciously analyze every single move to make it happen.
Then we try and analyze it later to see what we did wrong.
As I said before, as long as you understand the principle of how it works, whatever you are doing, if it works for you and you are comfortable doing it, keep it up, and practice, practice, practice. Then it becomes automatic so you can concentrate on hazard and collision avoidance instead of thinking do I push on this or do I push on that. Like Mr. Softie said, it's all connected, each move interacts with all the others to lean the bike and balance all the forces involved.

[Easy Rider]

Originally Posted by mrlmd1

Like Mr. Softie said, it's all connected, each move interacts with all the others to lean the bike and balance all the forces involved.

Good show. Summed it all up in one sentence.
Now why didn't I think of that.......... :shocked: