Little Help Please :) - Page 3

alantf · 06-01-2011, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabo99

Just seems weird that i would need to clean out the carb and such with only 2000 miles on it.

The additive that I use advises using it in the first three tankfuls of a new vehicle, then every 4000 km.

Cooteboy · 06-01-2011, 02:48 PM

Wow,

That was quite a response from everyone.

mrlmd1 "Premium fuel is easier on the components of the engine? Based on what evidence? Where does something like that come from?"

Sorry mrlmd1 - that was more my opinion than anything. Despite the fact that I was somewhat mislead in my understanding, the engine will still run cooler on premium. Less heat means less stress and wear - ie easier on the components - that's where my opinion was coming from.

I have been re-informed by everyone about the premium fuel, and I would like to thank everyone - that's what we're on a forum for right - to learn and help where we can.

geezer · 06-01-2011, 07:50 PM

goood save cooteboy :2tup: we about had you backed into a corner :twisted:

mrlmd1 · 06-01-2011, 09:17 PM

Here's the same info, from a Kawasaki Ninja site, same particulars as the GZ engine (ie. low compression)

What kind of fuel should I use?
From Ninja250Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search

This is real easy: The owner's manual specifies 87 octane unleaded gasoline. Anything else is like throwing money out the window. If you thought the manual said to use 91 octane, you read it wrong.

Confusion comes about because the method of determining the octane number is different in North America than in most of the rest of the world. Other countries use the Research Octane Number (RON), but if you look at the yellow octane sticker on pumps in the US, you'll see a notation that (R+M)/2 is how octane is calculated. (R+M)/2 is an averaging of the RON and the Motor Octane Number (MON). The important bit to know is that 87 in the US is equal to 91 in countries using the RON standard.

Having too high an octane is never harmful, but having too low can be. That said, there's still no point in using an octane higher than what the factory says, unless the engine's knocking. With an older engine, sometimes you get knocking unless you go with a higher octane.

You're not going to get a performance gain with a higher octane fuel. Octane (which is the only difference between the cheap gas and the expensive gas at a station) is a detonation inhibitor. It does not make gasoline burn better in any way - it actually prevents the gas from burning too soon. This is very useful in a high-compression, high-performance engine, like those found in sports cars and high-performance motorcycles. That's why it's recommended for those engines. However, for the Ninja 250, having higher octane produces no benefit: detonation won't occur with 87 octane gas, and it will continue not to occur with 89 or 91 octane gas. It is literally blowing money out your tailpipe. Since higher octane only increases the ignition energy required to start the burning reaction, it may cause a very slight reduction in performance compared to lower octane gasoline, but it would be too small to be measured, much less noticed.

In other words, 87 octane and 91 octane gasoline perform exactly the same in a Ninja 250 engine. There is no benefit (but also no harm) to running 91 octane gasoline, and it costs 20 cents more per gallon, typically. Over the course of 10,000 miles at 60 mpg, you'll spend an extra $33 on nothing.

At higher elevations, usually in western mountain states, octane numbers will often be lower to compensate for different combustion conditions. You should be able to use the lowest-octane gas sold there in your Ninja 250, but if you experience any knocking or unusual noises from the engine, switch to a higher octane fuel or a different brand.

And here's another similar comment--------

Welp I decided to start using 91 octane gas. I have unlimited money so I also only use Evian sparkling water in my toilet and I make sure that I drop fresh air fresheners into my garbage bags right before I seal them and put them outside in the trash (so if/when they break it doesn't make bad odors inside the garbage truck).

I never get why such simple premises like octane can really cause debates. People tie higher octane gas for "high performance" engines together and assume that it's the gas that's doing it. When in reality octane has nothing to do with performance. Nothing. nadda. zip (in reality it can actually hurt performance). If you go to the track and spend $7/gal for some 114 octane gas guess what you should expect? You'll burn your 02 sensor out (on your car) and not gain a single horsepower. Octane is a measurement of detonation resistance and that is IT. Higher combustion chamber pressures (from perhaps a super/turbo charger or domed pistons) present greater risk towards detonation and need more detonation resistant fuel. It'd be like a firefighter showing up and putting out a duraflame log with a fire hose. Sure it works, but it's way overkill.

In other words, use regular gas for the GZ.

Cooteboy · 06-02-2011, 05:54 PM

mrlmd1 and WW..

I would like to apologize for my mistake. You were both correct about the minimum requirement on the GZ250. I only read the beginning of the manual - in the back of the manual in section 7-23 it states the method used for determining octane rating. In NA all that is required is an octane rating of 87. I was wrong - I apologize.

mrlmd1 - Dang! You seem to have some extreme views on this subject. I was merely giving my opinion - which I am entitled to - just as you are entitled to yours.

In my area there are a few stations where you can aquire non-ethanol fuel in the summer. It is only available in the premium high octane fuel though. I would do some research and see if it is available in other areas of the country. That alone is worth 30 cents a gallon to me.

Also in my area, several stations tend to sell watered down regular fuel - literally. If you purchase the lowest octane fuel, you will often times need to buy a bottle of "heat" to rid yourself of the water - which runs $2.99 per bottle.

mrlmd1 - I would like to thank you for your persistence and information - it has helped me to understand several points more clearly. I have always known - per my experience on many different vehicles - that higher octane premium fuel runs the engine cooler but, didn't understand how or why.

Have you ever worked on a A/C system? It works much the same as the engine using pistons and vacuum/compression. Air conditoning does not actually "make" cold air - instead it removes heat from it's surroundings creating the effect of cold air. The process of changing refrigerant from a liquid to a gas takes a great amount of energy - in the form of heat. The higher the temperature required to make the conversion, the greater the amount of engergy required, the greater the amount of heat absorbed/exchanged, ie the colder the A/C. If the premium higher octane fuel truly does require a higher temperature to become a combustilbe gas, then it would absorb more heat in order to burn - in turn reducing the operating temperature of the engine. Just because the premium fuel requires more heat to burn does not mean that it burns hotter, quite the opposite actually.

That is my theory and experience on the subject - it makes sense from a chemistry/physics standpoint - disapprove/disagree if you like. I have now done some research online and have not found anyone who has experienced - or at least documented - what I have observed. I am very interested in this concept though and would like to see a bit of research done. If I am correct, then I would think that air cooled engines would benefit somewhat from this - not at all in performance but, perhaps in longevity.

Regardless, if you want to run regular - then by all means run regular fuel (it's recommended by the manufacturer) and it will surely get you from point A to point B. In turn, if you want to run premium - feel free to do so - it is your perogative (just don't mention it on this forum - they'll back you into a corner :biggrin: )

geezer · 06-02-2011, 08:36 PM

yes we will, oh and dont you dare mention anyting about suzuki engine guards either, our attack squad will come after you.

as far as the fuel thing goes, i always have disagreed with people who state high octane fuel makes yor car run better blablablablab. but one guy really was so sure that it atlest give you better fuel milage/ so i tested this and used midgrade instead, no milage increase at all and i spent 10 more dollars to fill :itsokay:

sabo99 · 08-02-2011, 04:02 PM

Ok, I am still having this issue after several tanks of fuel with Seafoam in them. I am sure it is not due to the carb. I am leaning towards the Petcock assembly. I think when i am at higher RPM's/Speed, the engine isnt getting enough fuel. Is it ok to keep the Petcock in the Prime position while riding? I want to try this since it will give constant flow to engine. Just to test my theory. If that keeps my issue from happening, then i will know my problem is there somewhere. I just dont want to mess anything up while trying it. I know to never leave it in Prime with the bike off, but is it ok to leave it in Prime if the bike is running? That is my question. Thanks

Paul

blaine · 08-02-2011, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabo99

Ok, I am still having this issue after several tanks of fuel with Seafoam in them. I am sure it is not due to the carb. I am leaning towards the Petcock assembly. I think when i am at higher RPM's/Speed, the engine isnt getting enough fuel. Is it ok to keep the Petcock in the Prime position while riding? I want to try this since it will give constant flow to engine. Just to test my theory. If that keeps my issue from happening, then i will know my problem is there somewhere. I just dont want to mess anything up while trying it. I know to never leave it in Prime with the bike off, but is it ok to leave it in Prime if the bike is running? That is my question. Thanks

Paul

Yep,fine to keep it on"pri" when the bike is running.

:cool:

sabo99 · 08-02-2011, 04:53 PM

Awesome... Thanks

mrlmd1 · 08-02-2011, 08:06 PM

But make sure you put it back in the RUN position when you are done, just in case you have a leaky carb float.

06-01-2011, 02:48 PM	#22
Cooteboy Junior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Washington State Posts: 22	Re: Little Help Please :) Wow, That was quite a response from everyone. mrlmd1 "Premium fuel is easier on the components of the engine? Based on what evidence? Where does something like that come from?" Sorry mrlmd1 - that was more my opinion than anything. Despite the fact that I was somewhat mislead in my understanding, the engine will still run cooler on premium. Less heat means less stress and wear - ie easier on the components - that's where my opinion was coming from. I have been re-informed by everyone about the premium fuel, and I would like to thank everyone - that's what we're on a forum for right - to learn and help where we can.
	0

06-01-2011, 07:50 PM	#23
geezer Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: dahlonega GA Posts: 563	Re: Little Help Please :) goood save cooteboy :2tup: we about had you backed into a corner :twisted: __________________ 99 gz 250 and a currently dismantled fzr 1000 Login or Register to Remove Ads
	0

06-01-2011, 09:17 PM	#24
mrlmd1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Crawfordville, Florida Posts: 2,853	Re: Little Help Please :) Here's the same info, from a Kawasaki Ninja site, same particulars as the GZ engine (ie. low compression) What kind of fuel should I use? From Ninja250Wiki Jump to: navigation, search This is real easy: The owner's manual specifies 87 octane unleaded gasoline. Anything else is like throwing money out the window. If you thought the manual said to use 91 octane, you read it wrong. Confusion comes about because the method of determining the octane number is different in North America than in most of the rest of the world. Other countries use the Research Octane Number (RON), but if you look at the yellow octane sticker on pumps in the US, you'll see a notation that (R+M)/2 is how octane is calculated. (R+M)/2 is an averaging of the RON and the Motor Octane Number (MON). The important bit to know is that 87 in the US is equal to 91 in countries using the RON standard. Having too high an octane is never harmful, but having too low can be. That said, there's still no point in using an octane higher than what the factory says, unless the engine's knocking. With an older engine, sometimes you get knocking unless you go with a higher octane. You're not going to get a performance gain with a higher octane fuel. Octane (which is the only difference between the cheap gas and the expensive gas at a station) is a detonation inhibitor. It does not make gasoline burn better in any way - it actually prevents the gas from burning too soon. This is very useful in a high-compression, high-performance engine, like those found in sports cars and high-performance motorcycles. That's why it's recommended for those engines. However, for the Ninja 250, having higher octane produces no benefit: detonation won't occur with 87 octane gas, and it will continue not to occur with 89 or 91 octane gas. It is literally blowing money out your tailpipe. Since higher octane only increases the ignition energy required to start the burning reaction, it may cause a very slight reduction in performance compared to lower octane gasoline, but it would be too small to be measured, much less noticed. In other words, 87 octane and 91 octane gasoline perform exactly the same in a Ninja 250 engine. There is no benefit (but also no harm) to running 91 octane gasoline, and it costs 20 cents more per gallon, typically. Over the course of 10,000 miles at 60 mpg, you'll spend an extra $33 on nothing. At higher elevations, usually in western mountain states, octane numbers will often be lower to compensate for different combustion conditions. You should be able to use the lowest-octane gas sold there in your Ninja 250, but if you experience any knocking or unusual noises from the engine, switch to a higher octane fuel or a different brand. And here's another similar comment-------- Welp I decided to start using 91 octane gas. I have unlimited money so I also only use Evian sparkling water in my toilet and I make sure that I drop fresh air fresheners into my garbage bags right before I seal them and put them outside in the trash (so if/when they break it doesn't make bad odors inside the garbage truck). I never get why such simple premises like octane can really cause debates. People tie higher octane gas for "high performance" engines together and assume that it's the gas that's doing it. When in reality octane has nothing to do with performance. Nothing. nadda. zip (in reality it can actually hurt performance). If you go to the track and spend $7/gal for some 114 octane gas guess what you should expect? You'll burn your 02 sensor out (on your car) and not gain a single horsepower. Octane is a measurement of detonation resistance and that is IT. Higher combustion chamber pressures (from perhaps a super/turbo charger or domed pistons) present greater risk towards detonation and need more detonation resistant fuel. It'd be like a firefighter showing up and putting out a duraflame log with a fire hose. Sure it works, but it's way overkill. In other words, use regular gas for the GZ.
	0

06-02-2011, 05:54 PM	#25
Cooteboy Junior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Washington State Posts: 22	Re: Little Help Please :) mrlmd1 and WW.. I would like to apologize for my mistake. You were both correct about the minimum requirement on the GZ250. I only read the beginning of the manual - in the back of the manual in section 7-23 it states the method used for determining octane rating. In NA all that is required is an octane rating of 87. I was wrong - I apologize. mrlmd1 - Dang! You seem to have some extreme views on this subject. I was merely giving my opinion - which I am entitled to - just as you are entitled to yours. In my area there are a few stations where you can aquire non-ethanol fuel in the summer. It is only available in the premium high octane fuel though. I would do some research and see if it is available in other areas of the country. That alone is worth 30 cents a gallon to me. Also in my area, several stations tend to sell watered down regular fuel - literally. If you purchase the lowest octane fuel, you will often times need to buy a bottle of "heat" to rid yourself of the water - which runs $2.99 per bottle. mrlmd1 - I would like to thank you for your persistence and information - it has helped me to understand several points more clearly. I have always known - per my experience on many different vehicles - that higher octane premium fuel runs the engine cooler but, didn't understand how or why. Have you ever worked on a A/C system? It works much the same as the engine using pistons and vacuum/compression. Air conditoning does not actually "make" cold air - instead it removes heat from it's surroundings creating the effect of cold air. The process of changing refrigerant from a liquid to a gas takes a great amount of energy - in the form of heat. The higher the temperature required to make the conversion, the greater the amount of engergy required, the greater the amount of heat absorbed/exchanged, ie the colder the A/C. If the premium higher octane fuel truly does require a higher temperature to become a combustilbe gas, then it would absorb more heat in order to burn - in turn reducing the operating temperature of the engine. Just because the premium fuel requires more heat to burn does not mean that it burns hotter, quite the opposite actually. That is my theory and experience on the subject - it makes sense from a chemistry/physics standpoint - disapprove/disagree if you like. I have now done some research online and have not found anyone who has experienced - or at least documented - what I have observed. I am very interested in this concept though and would like to see a bit of research done. If I am correct, then I would think that air cooled engines would benefit somewhat from this - not at all in performance but, perhaps in longevity. Regardless, if you want to run regular - then by all means run regular fuel (it's recommended by the manufacturer) and it will surely get you from point A to point B. In turn, if you want to run premium - feel free to do so - it is your perogative (just don't mention it on this forum - they'll back you into a corner :biggrin: ) Login or Register to Remove Ads
	0

06-02-2011, 08:36 PM	#26
geezer Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: dahlonega GA Posts: 563	Re: Little Help Please :) yes we will, oh and dont you dare mention anyting about suzuki engine guards either, our attack squad will come after you. as far as the fuel thing goes, i always have disagreed with people who state high octane fuel makes yor car run better blablablablab. but one guy really was so sure that it atlest give you better fuel milage/ so i tested this and used midgrade instead, no milage increase at all and i spent 10 more dollars to fill :itsokay: __________________ 99 gz 250 and a currently dismantled fzr 1000
	0

08-02-2011, 04:02 PM	#27
sabo99 Junior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Bloomington, IL Posts: 15	Re: Little Help Please :) Ok, I am still having this issue after several tanks of fuel with Seafoam in them. I am sure it is not due to the carb. I am leaning towards the Petcock assembly. I think when i am at higher RPM's/Speed, the engine isnt getting enough fuel. Is it ok to keep the Petcock in the Prime position while riding? I want to try this since it will give constant flow to engine. Just to test my theory. If that keeps my issue from happening, then i will know my problem is there somewhere. I just dont want to mess anything up while trying it. I know to never leave it in Prime with the bike off, but is it ok to leave it in Prime if the bike is running? That is my question. Thanks Paul
	0

08-02-2011, 04:53 PM	#29
sabo99 Junior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Bloomington, IL Posts: 15	Re: Little Help Please :) Awesome... Thanks
	0

08-02-2011, 08:06 PM	#30
mrlmd1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Crawfordville, Florida Posts: 2,853	Re: Little Help Please :) But make sure you put it back in the RUN position when you are done, just in case you have a leaky carb float.
	0

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