Multi-problemed bike (electrical + ???)
 

I don't even know where to begin... I have a 2003 GZ250 with 8,046 miles on it that I suspect is having multiple problems. It broke down back in October when I was on my way out to the Texas Renaissance Festival, then some friends who work out there said they'd see what they could do, but they were busy and only got around to ruling out a couple of things before the Fest was over. By the time I got it back it was finals, then I went back to Oregon for winterbreak, so my bike's been sitting around worsening.

The current (haha) most pressing issue is that the battery is losing charge super fast. I had a friend come over to help me poke around at it and he brought a tender over, the tender would charge it up, then we'd stop it and watch the voltage plummet about a tenth of a volt per second. It would always slow down eventually. Before we hooked up the tender, the lights would turn on and it would try to start, but various times after that the lights were barely visible. I started following the service manual trouble shoot guide for battery running down quickly

• I have no accessories
• The current between the negative lead and negative terminal was 0.24 mA (which I understand to mean that the battery isn't leaking)
• I couldn't measure the charging voltage since the bike won't start...
• I started to try and check the stator resistance, but it got dark and I called it a night

In addition to that, I've got a fair amount of oil on the cooling fins, much like kongje did in his thread "Source of oil leak?" It looks like the respondents to that thread said to tighten the exhaust bolts (I guess these are the same "EXHAUST PIPE BOLTS" mentioned in the periodic maintenance section of the service manual?) and there was a bunch of talk about gaskets and o-rings which were variously disputed... but would a leak there cause oil loss when the bike isn't running? I could have sworn I had oil back when my bike broke down, but I don't appear to have any now (yes, I checked with the bike upright, I even leaned it to that side.) I haven't noticed any fluid spots of any sort under my bike, where could the oil have gone? :confused:

Other than that... the bike doesn't go. Even when the battery seems to have a charge (lights turn on, and start-y noises happen [my friend said it sounded like it was turning over]). Spark plug's new, carb's been cleaned, I believe my Rennie friend said something about spraying starter fluid somewhere and it not helping. His conclusion was that I needed to do a compression test, but I guess first I should get my electric system in order... right?

I'd really like my bike to be running when my next job starts in 2 weeks... do y'all figure it would be more likely to happen if I sent it to a shop or can I try to fix it on my own (/with help from more knowledgeable, better tooled friends). My fears with sending it to a shop is that they might take a long time to fix it (since they have other bikes to deal with) and/or, they might cost so much that I can't afford it (I'm tight on money until this job starts up)... my fears with attempting to do it myself is that I might mess it up and/or have to send it to the shop after all anyway.

Sorry for being super long winded. Conciseness has never been a strong point of mine.

Actual Problem and Lessons Learned
(So someone coming on this thread later doesn't have to read all of it [spoiler alert])
The actual problem keeping the bike from starting was that the cam shaft had snapped in half. This was found after running all the basic easy tests (new gas, check for spark, etc), I checked for compression with a compression kit borrowed from the mechanic down the street, found it wanting, checked to see what the valves were doing, they weren't moving at all, checked to see what was up with the cams and found the problem. Pictures of that mess on pg 14. Suspicion is that the break was either due to shearing force caused by parts not moving right because of low oil, or perhaps due to manufacturing flaw.

The battery problems described above were fixed by taking it in to be charged at the mechanic, we must have failed to charge it correctly with my friend's charger.
Lessons learned: (added as I review the thread)

• Be prepared for your repair to take waaaaay longer than you expect. Patience really is a virtue
• Keep up with maintenance (especially, keep an eye on your oil!)
• If your battery's being weird, get it charged/tested, most places will do it for free
• Yes it's fine to change oil cold if you can't turn the engine on, it just takes a bit longer and it's harder to tell if you got precisely the right amount in
• If you have the OEM spark plug tool, never lose it, also, be kind and pass it on to the next owner. To get mine out, I used a 18mm long socket and an extender, but at that point my deal was so long, I had to take the gas tank off.
• When loosening a bolt, make quadruply sure you are actually turning it the right way, especially if you're getting at it from a weird angle.
• (Related to above) don't mess up fasteners (bolts, screws, w/e) on your bike. Just don't.
• The oil drain plug is an M14-1.25 (meaning it's metric, diameter of 14mm, pitch of 1.25, the OEM part is also 12 mm long, stainless steel, with a 17mm flange head) If your bike shop doesn't have it, the auto stores will, don't let them tell you they don't. It's the same as 2009-2012 F350/450/550 Super Duty truck, among others.
• If you're ever having trouble finding a special bolt like that, get one of the customer service peeps to give you the specifications (particularly diameter and pitch) and then google those and see what else uses it
• Yes, the starter plunger (choke) should come fairly freely when you unscrew the nut that holds it to the carb, if it refuses, it's probably gunked up and the spring's probably being crappy. I let WD-40 sit on it and eventually worked it out (I have since learned the wonders of penetrating oil and would imagine that would do even better)
• Buy penetrating oil (I got P'Blaster) and degreaser (I got DuPont for chain and sprocket). Just do it. They're great.
• GZ250s' gas system is vacuum fed, there is no off switch, but on or res will keep the gas from flowing if you disconnect the hose from the carb, conversely pri will make it flow freely.
• There is a drain screw on the bottom of the carb, unscrewing it will let gas out the float drain tube so that your disconnected carb doesn't randomly spit gas at you
• After reconnecting your carb, prime it for a few seconds to re-fill the float...
• Before you prime the carb, make sure the float drain screw is tightened, unless your floor is thirsty for gas. (Around page 10 are lots of good carb tips that I'll probably need again later)
• The screws that hold your float bowl on are JIS #2 because Japan hates you. (Getting a JIS screw driver may not actually help you, however, because your carb hates you too)
• If spark's good, battery's good, the bike's turning over, the carb's clean, and starter fluid sprayed in the air box doesn't make the bike go, check compression (you may be able to borrow a compression test kit from a mechanic if you're friendly and willing to leave a deposit)
• GN250 cylinder head (along with most other parts) is interchangeable with GZ250
• Ebay's great and all, but make sure you get and look closely at pics from all angles before you buy
• When putting the generator cover tighten down the two long bolts that have the cylinder cans around their holes first, just until the cover is sitting on the bike, then tighten all the bolts evenly.
• When any tightening bolts on your bike, first look in relevant sections for specific tightening instructions, if there are none, refer to the table on page 7-25 (222) of the service manual (the chart is also on page 17 of this thread)
• If you have odd timing issues after putting the rotor back on, your woodruff key (the metal semi-circle that keeps the slots in the rotor and shaft aligned) has probably come out.
• When pushing on the rotor by hand, turn the idle starter gear behind it to get the rotor snugged all the way back, then impact the nut on.

The electrical could be generator stator or a short,if it's cranking but not starting it could be a safety switch in the kickstand or clutch.

First of all, test the battery. With your problems, it might be best to remove it from the bike. Charge it overnight at around 0.6 amps, remove the charger. Test voltage between terminals. Leave it for half an hour, then test voltage between terminals again. Let us know the results.

I had really bad starting problems a couple of weeks ago. I was convinced that it was a carb problem, but the test I've shown, above, showed a weak battery. Replaced the battery, and all the problems went away. But don't just guess - do the test and let us know the results.

I do not currently own a charger/tender/whatever, I've been meaning to get one since they're pretty derned useful/important. Any recommendations on what to get? I'm low on money, but I don't wanna go cheap and get something useless.

If you said you had a friend that put your bike on a tender see if you can borrow his for a day or two. It should only take a night to charge your battery and test it the next day.

In the mean time I would take another look at the engine and see if you can find any causes for your missing oil. Did you take a look at the spark plug recently? does it look fouled at all? Also, when you pull the spark plug you might as well check the compression real quick to either confirm its and issue or rule it out.

Just some thoughts.

Do you THINK you had oil in the bike before you let it sit or did you definitely have the proper amount of oil in the bike? That's a big difference when it comes to brainstorming, ya know what I mean?

To rule out the possibility of memory error, just change the oil. It's all of $10 and you'll know, going forward, that there is oil in the bike and that it's at the proper level. After you change the oil, clean the engine and fins and underside of the bike. This will allow you the opportunity to check for any leaks that might be there.

The bolts that people recommend torquing aren't just the exhaust bolts. Those are usually tweaked when people have an exhaust leak. The head bolts are what get snugged down when you're seeing more oil on the cooling fins. You remove the tank to access these, IIRC. Torque specs are in the service manuals.

But, to get to the real root of the problem, it's the battery. We don't have a complicated electrical system on these things. If your battery is dropping off its charge after just a few minutes, that simply means it's not keeping it. Even if you turned on your blinkers, held in the brake, and put the headlight on bright, the bike simply doesn't use that much juice.

Take the battery off the bike, drive over to Autozone or your other favorite autoparts store, and they will test the battery for free. I can almost bet money that it's bad. And even if this isn't the biggest Gremlin, it needs to be done.

The bike has been sitting for a long time, so even if every system was healthy, it's going to take some caressing in order to get it to start.

Is your gas fresh?
Have you pulled the plug just to give it a good little cleaning (replacing is only like $5)
Aired up the tires? ("Why? I want to it to crank" - just do it.)

Don't overlook the basic stuff too. You're not trying to start it with the kick stand down are you?

You can do this. You don't need to take it to a shop. We are all here for you.

Jonathan's right (as irritating as that is, it tends to be true), these bikes are incredibly simple which is part of the joy of owning one.

Hey Jonathan..............It WILL start with the kickstand down (so long as it's in neutral) It's when you put it in gear with the stand down that it comes in and cuts the engine.

I said "could have sworn" and I meant "could have sworn" I have a terrible memory, so it could have been gone for a while, but I tend to check the oil level and my friends who looked at the bike also didn't note it being low, so... there's that.
But yeah, there's no oil, so obviously I need to "change" it (not sure how well that word applies if there isn't any to take out, but I'll open the drain and see what happens.) You put a pan under for oil to go into, but what happens after that with old oil? You put it in some container and put it under your pillow for the oil fairy to take?

How do you guys recommend cleaning the fins? They're fairly deep and narrow... also what liquid(s) are recommended?

So should I try doing something with those or just wait and see where/if oil pops up when/if I get Coot (the bike) up and running?

I'll do that, except for the driving bit... with Coot outta commission it's feet or bus.

No, it's from October and has been sitting in my tank through whatever weather's happened since then. Much like the oil fairy, I don't know how the gas fairy works. Am I gunna hafta by gas cans and take them somewhere for disposal?
How do you even get gas out? I have a feeling opening up the top and turning the fuel tank upside down is not the correct technique.

The spark plug has been replaced since the bike broke down and has not magically fouled while sitting dormant.

Uh... I guess I could... it would be a lot easier to do if I could ride the bike to air though...


You guys are kinda awesome, just thought you should know. (That's not just at Jonathan, the rest of you are cool for your replies and I've been going through random other threads, reading and learning)

Wow that s a lot of questions.

You can usually take used oil to a mechanic or autozone (or similar) and they will take it)

You can use Q-tips to help clean between the fins, that or a twisted up rag, whatever works.

For the head bolts, I would put a wrench on it and make sure they are at least reasonably tight, if you had a torque wrench you could check that way but not to many people have torque wrenches starting out

As far as removing the gas, you can pull the small black hose that goes from your petcock (the gas selector switch) to your carb, direct that into a gasoline safe container, and then turn the petcock to prime and it should drain out. Then hook the little black hose back up to the carb.

And yes...we are awesome.


Guys, did I miss and mess anything up there?

John, from now on when I think of you I will think of Ace Ventura....it probably fits better than I'll ever know.

Like goose said, use whatever to clean the fins. Everyone has a different way, but the one I use is a squirt of zippo lighter fuel to soften the oil, then an old toothbrush for the easy to reach places, then a piece of paper kitchen towel (soaked in zippo fuel) wrapped round a screwdriver to get to the awkward bits. Just be imaginative, and do what suits you. ;)

BTW... No "iff's", "but's", or excuses. Get the battery checked NOW. :p

Another quick heads up...When you get the new oil in, a quick check before every ride .....If you can see oil in the window while it's still on the stand, pull the bike upright, and if you see oil shoot up the glass (it'll change from a clear glass to a brown glass :rolleyes:) you'll know you're good to go.

Goodness gracious good mood, good mood *knock on wood*
I came home to google where the closest service-y place is, not only is the Batteries Plus where I bought my battery less than a mile from my house, but the shop in my town that stocks lots of Suzuki parts is right by it. I could push Cooter there if need be!

So I headed out to buy oil and get my battery tested and as soon as I step out the door, there's a dollar bill sitting on my door step (litter regularly blows into my front yard and it's a particularly windy day today). If finding a penny's good luck, a dollar must be 100x that, right?

Anyhoozles, I got to the shop and they said my battery was untestably dead, but they could charge it up and test it and call me with results (which sounds kinda like the ill-advised quick charge that I saw you guys railing against in another thread, but maybe they're not charging it up all the way? I should have clarified, but I'm kinda assuming the battery's toast at this point anyway).

I talked to the counter guy about swapping out dead gas and if they had a receptacle or whatever for it and he asked if I knew how to take the old gas out and because of you guys I was able to give the right answer and sound like someone who knows some stuff (but only a little).

Nobody mentioned it yet so I will. Are the battery connections good and tight?? Are they clean and free of corrosion?? A loose connection will not allow a good contact.
As for the gas I would agree with draining the tank and starting with some fresh gas with some Seafoam added to help clean things up internally.
Testing the battery at a parts store is free so do as suggested. If it is bad a new one will likely solve most of your problems. These bikes need a little TLC like any other bike but the rewards are gigantic and satisfying.

Oh.....after the fins on the engine are cleaned up you can sprinkle some talcum powder on them to show where the source of oil is coming from after you get it running.
Ditto on the tire pressures too. I would always run 2up tire pressures for less tire wear.

http://www.ginorthwest.org/pages/upl.../fake%20it.jpg
For Iffy.

Good use of multi-quotes from a forum noob. You will not, however, receive the same kind treatment from me.

Yes, by "changing" the oil it means to drain what was in there previously and replace with it a fresh amount of over-processed dinosaur remains of your choosing. While it may not appear to have any oil in the sight glass, there is, undoubtedly, some oil still in the crankcase. Also, don't listen to anyone else on the forum but me. There IS such thing as an oil fairy. Simply place the open topped container of used under your bed at night and by morning it will be gone. Oil fairies also are said to love children and pets. Make sure your open container of used motor oil is located within access to them so that they can share in the magic.

Cleaning fins requires something as complex as a stiff bristled brush and some foaming engine degreaser.

Leave the bolt torquing alone until you discover the actual source of the leak. These things are known for a very common brown residue that emanates sometime after purchase and really never goes away or worsens. Let's make sure that's not your issue before we go getting all heavy handed on some feeble nuts.

Feet are good.

If this were the 1970's I would just tell you to pour you old gas down the drain and help enliven the fishes of your local watering hole. Unlike the oil, there are no fairies for gas removal. It's suitable fuel still. Save it for your lawnmower.

There's lot's of magic in these parts. Replace the spark plug again anyway...actually, do it about 4 times. 4 is a magic number.

It's going to be hard to ride the bike to air, since they are bound by the limits of gravity and thus will only ever be able to be ridden to road. But knock yourself out.

We are the coolest, foshizzle. Anyhoozles, good luck. And keep us posted.

ok. So I got 2 quarts of oil and I'm waiting for results of battery test...
The service manual (and Jonathan's oil changing thread) says oil should be replaced when the engine is warm, does that mean that I should wait 'til the engine is a goin' or will I need the oil in there to make the whole going thing happen?

I'm a noob to this forum, but I was on a site that was once called go-gaia for the majority of highschool. Like seriously, that was my social life. I'm a cool kid.

You guys seem to swear by this seafoam stuff. I guess I'll have to acquire some.

The oil they gave (sold) me was (reading straight down the bottle) SAE 10W-40 Kawasaki Performance Oils 4-Stroke Engine Oil ATV/UTV... I see no API starbursts anywhere. Does that mean it's not certified? Should I take it back? On the back it says "Service Category CJ-4/SL, JASO MA and JASO MA2 engine oil"

You are going to want to make sure you have the proper level of oil when you try to crank the bike over. NEVER ever turn over a motor without oil in it.

After you get the cooter running again you can get the engine warm and then check the level again but don't wait.

Also, I've been around for a few months and still don't know how you did that whole quote thing so you're one up on me.

Otherwise it sounds like you've got some good fortune on your side. Hopefully you and your cooter are back in tip top shape soon.

It is best to have the engine warmed a bit to thin out the oil so it drains more readily. In your case I would just change it regardless of temp. That said.....when you add the new oil, fill it to the full mark with the bike upright. After you do get it started and running the level may go down. Check it after the bike has been shut off for a couple minutes to see where the actual level is.
Did you get moto specific oil? A regular car oil will not do the bike any good. Shell Rotella(diesel) will work wonderfully and one of the cheapest on the market. It has no mollifiers in it to mess up the clutch plates just like a moto specific oil. Great success in 2 of our bikes. Carry on Iffy.

@__@ as I said before, it appears to be ATV oil. I don't even know. Should I try to return it when I go back for the battery?

Qasual:

Gaia online was so good back then.

THIS?
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Kawasaki-Perf...-,g~~60_35.JPG

I've tried to go back a few times, it's just too complicated now... There was a period of time where I'd sign in every few months to change my avi's clothes and check pm's, but it's probably been over a year since the last time

My bottle looks cooler, but yeah, same words n' shit.

The reason you need the oil warm to change it is just that as the oil gets warm it gets thinner, so it runs out of the drain hole quicker, and more completely. ;)

Got the battery back, they said it's just fine. I just checked the voltage, it's still at 12.7 V. So... it's not the battery?

I got rid of the old gas and acquired an oil pan and my friend talked me into buying a torque wrench. I almost bought some seafoam, but decided to see if it was cheaper elsewhere. Turns out it's cheaper at Target than O'Reilley's. Looked in to getting a sparkplug socket, since I recieved none of the OEM toolkit, but Action Sports (the nearby parts store/dealer) only had them for $21. Butts. O'Reilleys had a 18mm sparkplug socket for <$5, but they didn't have it in stock and I wasn't sure if it was thin walled enough to fit in our tight space...would it work?

Tomorrow I wanna go get an oil filter (is there some specific part I'm looking for or are they pretty standard?), buy some fresh gas, and see if I can get something to extract that derned sparkplug (that doesn't cost $20)

It would seem that the battery is fine.I think I would be more concerned as to were the oil went or if the bike ran dry of oil which would point to a larger problem.I hope that is not the case. ;) :)

Any parts store or small engine repair shop will likely have a HiFlo-HF136 oil in stock. Cheaper than Suzuki but they are the same. Very common in small engines.

Now that you know the battery's fine, a quick check on the charging system won't hurt. Once you get the oil into the bike (so you can start it up) put the battery back on the bike. With your voltmeter across the battery terminals, rev up to around 4000 RPM, and you should see the voltage shoot up to over 13 volts.

HiFlo-HF136 oil FILTER.

That's a funny joke. The bike hasn't started since October.

I'm heading out to get an oil filter, gas, an 18mm deep (thinwalled?) socket, and seafoam, will change oil and add gas (since I got rid of the stale stuff yesterday) when I return. How much seafoam do y'all put in? We dipped the carb in carb cleaner back in November, so it should just be a maintenance dose.

About 3 ozs will be fine. ;) :)

Maybe alantf had a premonition. thinking positive.

Ugh. Today was... let's say, unproductive.

Today the plan was to go buy the aforementioned things, change the oil, then go with a friend to meet up with a guy from craigslist who needs help fixing his house, then I was gunna go hang with some girlfriends, maybe come home and dick around with the bike a bit more...

Instead, this morning I came back from my shopping rounds and tried to take the oil plug bolt off. Unfortunately I'm lacking in spatial reasoning and spent the first 20 minutes trying--and marginally succeeding--to turn the bolt the wrong way, getting an already extremely tight bolt even tighter on. In my efforts to actually loosen it the correct way, I managed to shear off some of the metal on the bolt and scrape/bang up my hands pretty bad.

My friend came to pick me up for the craigslist thing, and when we returned from that I asked him if he would try his hand at loosening the bolt, he wanted me to try and start the bike, and at that point I realized that I didn't have my keys. We spent an hour or so looking for my keys at the house, then went back to the craigslist guy's house to look, then some more at the house. I eventually found my spare bike key, but we had to make a duplicate of the house key.

My friend decided this was the excuse he needed to finally buy the air compressor he wanted, so he did and he used a pneumatic impact to loosen the oil drain bolt on my bike, but it's dark, so I decided to leave the full oil change 'til tomorrow.

TL;DR: today kinda sucked and changing oil can be brutal.
Also, did put gas and a little oil in and try starting it up. It is turning over, but nothing else. Battery didn't drop too bad from trying to start it (still above 12v when I checked)
Tomorrow, I try again.

Rough day. A tip to loosen tight bolts in the future: use a pipe to extend the ratchets handle for leverage.

Yeah, but why use a pipe when you have an air compressor, apparently (not that I have either lying about, unless I wanted to steal some plumbing, but the roommates/landlord would probably be a bit pissy 'bout that)
I watched two Doctor Who Christmas specials back to back, so now I'm at least going to bed in a good mood.

You said the battery was above 12v. A few weeks ago when I had problems starting, and ended up buying a new battery (which cured the problem), the old battery which gave the problems was showing 12.36v, and starting was a problem, so you may need to give it a charge, to help it. Overnight at 0.6A is the ideal charge, but certainly not above 2A for a couple of hours.

Every bike parts shop in town is closed on Sundays, and I dared not put the drain bolt that'd I'd so badly mangled back on, so without the ability to put oil in, troubleshooting waits another day.
I'm not a patient person *fidgetfidget*

Patients grasshopper. It will be worth the wait. When you get a new drain bolt/plug be sure to get a new crush washer too.