I got a 5th gear problem..
 

It might be an ignition problem but it feels like somethin wierd..

I came to this board thinkin someone might gimmie a second opinion, cuz Im all out of options.

It runs, drives, rev's, and has all kinds of power in 1st threw 4th gear.. The minute I get into the mid range power in ONLY 5th gear, it has a skip or sputter (like a speed limiter but not as fast as a rev limiter)

I can get it up to almost 60 in 4th with no problem.. But if Im easy on it and shift into 5th at a lower speed it still does the same thing.

Anyone got a clue? I know its not clutch, I just replaced the plates and springs with Barnett stuff... So I know its not slippin at a high speed. Its got a new plug, so I know its not cutting out.

Any insite on this matter would do me alot of good right now. Its not my bike, Im working on it for someone and its buggin the hell out'a me right now... I build 4 cyl race engines and stroker motors. I dont deal with single cyl issues like this lol

Has the bike been sitting for awhile. It could be a fuel system problem if it has. New gas and a through carburetor cleaning can fix this.

Re: I got a 5th gear problem..
 

With all due respect.......you don't know that for sure. :??:

It sounds to me like you have an arc-over in the high voltage circuit somewhere. That often shows up first when the engine is under heavy load, which normally only happens in 5th gear.

So, check/replace the spark plug wire and boot. You might be able to induce a failure by spraying a fine mist of water on same. Sometimes you can SEE the fault with it running in a VERY dark room.

(Loosely related story:)
Circa 1964. Trip to Florida in our 1961 Buick Invicta (hands down best car I've ever owned). Started having a miss when going up steep grades (no interstates then). Stopped at 3 dealers/shops along the way. Still did it, only under heavy load but with the 410 ci engine, that wasn't very often. Dad was fit to be tied.

Went to a car wash......next door to a shade-tree mechanic......same owner. While car was being washed, Dad was BS'ing with the owner next door about the problem with missing. Owner said "When the wash is done, pull it into the bay next door.
He closed all the doors, shut off the lights and opened the hood. WOW, a light show !!! Pulled off 3 plug boots and threw them away. Ran fine all the way home, where all the wires and boots were replaced.

I know its not the carb because I already cleaned it..

Easy Rider.. thanks for the input. The owner was complaining at one point that his turn signal indicator light wasnt working.. I never got into it too much but I do know the bulb is good. So if there is a short someplace maybe that does have something to do with it.

I remember that water trick from workin on cars but Ive had my head burried so far in this bike that totally blew my mind. Thanks.

Ill let you guys know what happens..

I was having turn signal problems too. To fix it, I simply rearranged the placement of some of the standard wires and made sure my main grounds were tight. I haven't had a problem since.

Well the turn signals work perfectly fine, its just the dummy light next to the neutral light that doesnt work.. The only wire that I found that had any type of damage was one of the wires that goes into the had light can. One of the black wires had rubbed threw just enough to his the wire inside, I put a dab of liquid electrical tape on it to seal it up and that was that.. Everything else seems to be 100%

I also tried that water test.. got nothin. Nothing is arcing at all..

Did you do it in the daylight or in the dark??

And if you REALLY are a seasoned mechinic, you should know that this........
I know its not the carb because I already cleaned it..
might not be true either. ;)

I'm still betting on an electrical weakness though. Is the battery and charging system up to snuff ??

I give up. :cry:

A tiny piece of dirt so small you can't see it with your naked eye in the right(wrong) place can cause all sorts of nasty carburetor issues. Even if its squeaky clean when you installed it there could be trash in the tank that gets in there my daughter has just gone through this on her Honda.

I've had some personal experience with the under the hood in the dark fireworks on cars I have owned and I have seen it on motorcycles. If you can't do it in the dark you can always put your hand on the wire. :)

Don't assume that a new spark plug is a good spark plug. I had a problem once with a Subaru that would miss badly under heavy load. The dealer spent weeks trying to track it down. They finally discovered that three of the newly installed plugs were bad.

With a slight modification, that actually is a good suggestion.

Put your finger on a long screwdriver or similar; then run the tip of the metal rod around the plug and wire.
If there is leakage, you will (likely) just feel a little tickle. If you do get a good zap, your hand won't be in a place where you will hurt yourself when you flinch. :tup:

Oh, and be sure to visit the bathroom BEFORE you do this !! :cry:

Not recommended for anyone with a pace-maker! :oops:

HAHAHAHAHAHa. I hope that's not coming from the voice of experience.

No comment! ;)

I did the arc test in the dark.. no its not arcing, and yes Ive gone to the point of grabbing the damn thing and still nothing lol

I KNOW its not the carb because its clean as hell, all the ports have been blow'n out, all the jets are clean, and the diaphram is mint.. Besides the fact that I can get it to rev out perfectly fine in 4th gear.. When 5th try's to top out it feels like the ignition is cut off quickly and kicks back on again.. I KNOW its not carb related

I just put a new coil on it and its still happening.

The neutral and turn signal indicator on the dash still doesnt work. I NEED to find a wiring diagram so I can start following wires.. If there is a short someplace in the system that is drawing power (dont ask me why it would only do it in that fu(king gear) it could cut the ignition off, or power to the coil.

Ive even gone to the stretch of unplugging the speedo light plug, neutral light and turn signal indecator light plug and still nothing. I figured if the short was running threw those wires and I totally eliminated them, something would happen.. guess not.

BUT, I see now that the same power wire that runs the horn, dash lights, and ignition coil.. something has got to be happening in the system someplace. The only fault is that the horn, and gauge lights work and never cut out.. Jut the neutral and turn signal indicator still dont work, and the coil acts like a trips for a second.


Anyone got a wire diagram??

Your Problem
 

Try replacing the spark plug. I've had them run fine but fail under load. I't may be a cheap fix.

The wiring diagram is in the service manual on this site for download.

:tup:

Re: Your Problem
 

Already replaced the spark plug..

Just found the PDF file on the site thanks.. Found a bunch of stuff that tie's into the power system.. Eh god I hate these bikes. Its always somethin stupid that mess's everything up too. god damn electrical

Another Stupid Question
 

Have you checked the igniter box?

Just asking.

:)

Re: Your Problem
 

First you need to test and/or replace those 2 blubs on the dash board or fix the missing ground for them.......mainly to convince yourself that those lights not working has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your cut-out in 5th gear. ;)

The wiring diagram is bare bones. It probably doesn't show enough detail to help with the problem you are having.
At what speed does it occur ??? It may be the rev. limiter/top speed limiter that is cutting out too soon. Alas, only a dealer will probably have access to enough information to test and/or fix the ignition module.

How much time and money have you wasted so far ???? :cry:

P.S. Until you actually find and fix the problem, you don't KNOW that it's not caused by the carb.........or anything else for that matter. :cool:

Re: Your Problem
 

#1 I did replace the bulbs in the dash.. (did that just after I posted last) Then I proceeded to open up the wire harness to look for shorts in the system. I found 1 bad connection, soldered it shut, heat shrunk the new connection, and re-loomed the harness.. That fixed the bad dash lights, everything up top is 100% now.

#2 Its acting JUST LIKE a speed limiter or rev limiter.. it gives a skip in speed just like a speed limiter would..

#3 I KNOW its not the carb.. for a FACT! Theres no if, and's, or but's about it.. This bike has no miles on it for an '05.. Ive been working on bikes for the better part of 15 years and know what a carb issue feels like. This bike has the local Suzuki dealer stumped, and I am the last straw at this point..

Ive had this bike topped out in 4th gear going downhill at 58mph and it never skipped.. when I shift into 5th it cut out to no end.

Ive shifted into 5th early at around 42-45mph and it cut out.

From 1st gear all the way to 4th gear it rides like a new bike with no skipping, cutting out, hesitation.. ANYTHING

Its not acting like a tranny problem so dont think that.. Theres no tranny noise, no missed shifts or anything.. It just acts like a limiter..

This isnt my bike, I am just someone that is working on it at another shop. If got about 10 hours into checking, double checking, and tripple checking everything from electrical, to the fuel system on this bike..

I replaced the plug
I replaced the ign. coil
I replaced 2 bad dash bulbs
Ive cleaned the carb... twice (2nd time to double check it)
Ive fixed atleast 1 bad connection in the wire harness

and the only thing that has changed is the dash lights went on lol. Im bout to cut my loss's on this one and ship it.

This guy is only getting charged 4 hr's labor and Ill give him the option to buy the coil or not (the new one hasnt fixed anything) if he doesnt want it Ill have to take a loss on a "no return" OEM electrical part.

Unless someone on here can give some insite on what else it could be besides whats been listed, cuz Id really like to know so I can get this turd out of my shop. Im done working on it

/quote][#3 I KNOW its not the carb.. for a FACT! Theres no if, and's, or but's about it.. This bike has no miles on it for an '05.. Ive been working on bikes for the better part of 15 years and know what a carb issue feels like.

And I quote..

Like I said before.. I cleaned the carb, jets, and ports with carb cleaner, and blew out all the ports with 120 PSI from my compressor. I think whatever was in there.. came out even though you could eat off the float bowl.

But again.. its not carbs related, I just dont understand what you guys dont get.. lol I KNOW for a fact.. its not carb related lol

That is quite a problem. May I suggest this, you may have checked already but bear with me. I would be searching for an ignition problem. Spark plug cap or plug wire itself could be the culprit. In 5th gear the bike has to work the hardest and a weak component may only show up when really asked to do the maximun effort. Age and deterioration of the cap or wire may have caused small cracks in the material. Or possibly the power line to the ignition coil has some deterioration. If you haven't already, go over each connection through the entire ignition system.
This is a slightly related problem I had recently with my cage. A driving light went out so I replaced the bulb. Did not work. Checked new and old bulbs with meter and both were fine. Had power to the light itself. Test light would work, meter read proper voltage and even was able to light up an LED test light no problem. I even tried both bulbs in the working driving light with bright results. All my connections were solid and looked good. No corrosion or dirt. Started from scratch with new connectors and the second one fixed the problem. A light load, test light, meter and LED would work as the load was small but the connector was apparently faulty or my work was. Betting on my install work. Double check the electrical system. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a poor ground haunting you somewhere in the ignition system. Let us know how you make out please.

OK.....lol....
If you really are a mechanic, you understand perfectly what we are trying to say.

Day 1: I have a problem and it looks like it's caused by AAA.
Day 2: I have checked AAA and it's ok.
Day 3: Still looks like an AAA problem but I'm sure that's not it.
Day 4: I checked AAA again and I KNOW that's not the problem.
.
.
.
Day 10: Well,I'll be. Turns out AAA was the problem after all. :oops:

I agree that it is probably an electrical component weak or damaged, probably on the ignition board.
I would never change a coil without changing the plug wire and cap too.

Good luck. I give up.

"Only a Sith deals in adsolutes..."

In my experience, almost everytime I have said, "I know for a fact that it is not this" it turns out I am wrong.

Finally someone with some real insite..

Its wasnt my call to replace the whole coil but I did. On that coil the ignition wire is apart of it, so its not like I could just replace the wire and boot. Although I did replace the boot with an NGK one before and after I did the coil swap, it still didnt fix the problem.

You are correct though (finally someone that know's what Im talking about) 5th gear on the engine with a load does have to work "harder" for a strong spark. I opened the whole harness and checked the factory splice's and connections and still couldnt find anything except for one kinked wire in which I fixed. I also did a load test on the dash light connections and ran the bike up in 5th gear and checked for a serge in power.. Bingo..

Even though I replaced the 2 bulbs and they still work, there is a serge in power at those wire connections. One light only needs to work when its in neutral, and the other only when there is a turn signal on. So a bump in power when those lights are suposed to be off SHOWS that there is a draw in the system. A draw which pulls power from the coil and inso another place its not suposed to be.

I have no idea what your talkin about man.. lol because "AAA" wasnt the problem, so get off your high horse.

Water Warrior thank you for really looking into the problem with this bike, I will let you know what the outcome is..

Re: Easy Rider
 

What he was saying was, he has said before "The carb (or AAA) is DEFINATELY not the problem"(which I have done, too). Only to find out later that the carb WAS the problem. We are all happy that you found the problem, and that you were right and it wasn't the carb. However, no person can assume that someone they've never met has any idea about mechanics, and it would be foolish to think that just because Joe Blow says it's definately not the carb, doesn't mean that Joe Blow is correct. He was trying to help, not to tell you you were stupid. From the way you were describing it, it very well could have been a carb issue, and for the matter of you having cleaned the carb, all it takes is one microscopic piece of dirt in an out of the way place that you can't get to by spraying in carb cleaner and blowing it out with 120 PSI of air. Furthermore, if you cleaned it out twice, and cleaned it out the same way twice, it is perfectly logical that you missed the same spot twice. All Easy was trying to say was, don't totally discount anything until you "KNOW" what is wrong with it.

Anyway, glad to hear you're rolling again!! :rawk:

Spyder. Any chance some one was into the wiring in the past ? Any non OEM wiring just tucked away after a switch or electrical item was removed ? Here's along shot. Check in the headlight bucket. A lot of the whole power system gets involved in there. Poor connections, worn wires due to vibration or non OEM wires.

So what exactly does that mean? What is a "load test"? What kind of "surge"?

And now for something completely different........

After logging 1200 miles in the past 2 weeks, I now feel more "at one" with my GZ. It has some interesting personality quirks. At a certain RPM in 4th and 5th gear, it has a harmonic vibration. At a certain speed ~40 mph it has a low tone wind "whistle". At about 50-55 mph in 5th gear, it sounds like the engine is falling apart......but it isn't because if you accelerate thought it, the noise goes away. This last one only occurs with a windshield and helmet; without the helmet, you don't notice the ominous noise at all. Strange.

I mention this HERE only to ask: What leads you to believe there is a "miss" in the first place? Is it the sound.......or is it a feeling of loss of power and increased vibration?

And, no, I'm not trying to be a smart ass. Anyone who doesn't want my input can just tell me when to shut up.
If that's what the "high horse" comment meant, then I'm done.

Mine does this exact same thing. It lessened dramatically when I changed to the 16T sprocket, but was still there. When I changed back to the 15T, it came back just like before. I'm assuming it has something to do with the wear of the chain and/or sprocket. I figure, whenever (read: if ever) I put a new chain and sprockets on, I'll see if it clears up. Until then, I'll have to deal with the "whine".

PS: You can actually hear it in my tank camera video posted in Ride Reports. It's near the end after the construction stops when the bike gets around 40-45 mph.

Don't hold your breath. :)
I think it is due to the engine design.
Mine how has only 4K miles on it.

Once it gets to 60 though, it purrs like a kitten. It will even pull most hills, if I can get it wound up to just a tad over 60 at the bottom of the hill (with a 16T).

Ride your bike up to 50mph in 5th gear... give it some gas and speed up a little.. then with your left hand flip the kill switch off then back on as fast as you can 1 time every 1-2 seconds..

Thats what it feels like..

Warrior.. Most of my electrical checks were done in that head light bucket. I found one wire that rubbed threw right where it went unto the headlight bucket and was bare wire. But I fixed that. It didnt seem to be grounding on anything at all anyways.

If you really mean feels and not "sounds", then that eliminates that theory.

What happens if you accelerate PAST that speed......or is there not enough power to do that?

I think I'm about out of ideas.

Re: I got a 5th gear problem..
 

I have the same problem. Engine rev's fine in every gear. In fifth it jerks and stalls repeatedly every 3-4 seconds. What ended up being the solution?

Re: I got a 5th gear problem..
 

Have replaced the spark plug ? On ocassion the extra load of 5th gear will find the weakest link in the chain.

Re: I got a 5th gear problem..
 

Well......this looks like we are about to re-hash all of the suggestions in the original thread.
The original poster never let us know what the problem turned out to be; maybe even HE still doesn't know.

I would also suspect the plug boot or maybe even the plug wire just being loose.

Then there is the vibration thing that might be triggering an intermittant condition in the sidestand safety, the kill switch or even the ignition switch or a fuse......which are things we did NOT cover in the original thread.

Re: I got a 5th gear problem..
 

I figured it out, sort of... if i hold the gear selector up with my foot, then 5th gear works without any surging. Now I have to figure out what needs to be done to solve the problem without holding the selector up. Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

Re: I got a 5th gear problem..
 

"Sort of" is pretty accurate. :biggrin:

There is NOTHING in the transmission that will cause the bike to surge......except maybe the clutch.....and certainly nothing that would be affected by holding the shift lever UP.

You may be putting some pressure on the side stand switch .......which would be pretty close to your left foot, IIRC, and that could definitely cause it to cut out when going down the road.

Or you may actually have a slipping clutch and the shift lever thing is just a dream. :roll:
How's the slack in your clutch cable ??

Re: I got a 5th gear problem..
 

:plus1: Sounds like the side stand switch may be your problem.
:2tup: :cool:

Re: I got a 5th gear problem..
 

I hard wired the side stand switch out, just to make sure it wasn't it...It's not. It will start with the side stand down, but still lurches every 4 seconds or so unless i hold up the gear selector. If i very gently hold it up i still surge but i can feel the gear selector moving downward as the bike surges. Falling in and out of gear?

Re: I got a 5th gear problem..
 

Seems like I got the same as this guy:
http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3&start=25
look at the last 2 posts.

Re: I got a 5th gear problem..
 

opacha, check to see if one of those guys left a PM or e-mail on their profiles. A lot of time people come and go and stop posting, but you can sometimes track them down cause they still monitor their e-mails.

Re: I got a 5th gear problem..
 

Surging is quite different than falling out of gear.

If you do NOT hold the shifter, does the engine race and you stop putting power to the wheel ??

If it is falling out of gear, then you probably have some transmission damage. That probably is not a user repairable item. A shop visit would be recommended. The longer you ride it like that, the worse it will get. A simple bent shifter fork might turn into major damage.

If it comes back on it's own (every 4 seconds) then it likely is NOT falling out of gear because that's something that is so unlikely to happen that I'd call it impossible.