Update on strange electrical problem...

[sportpsyc]

Wow. I have now pulled all my hair out. Here is what I have done, and where things stand. I have TWO of these bikes, so I swapped parts on the problem bike with ones from my 2006 bike that I know are working, one by one to try and diagnose the problem:

Neutral switch: No Change
Rectifier/Regulator: No Change
Igniter: No Change
Fuses: All replaced with new for the heck of it.
All wires checked for breaks in insulation, loose connections; nothing found

Last but not least.....drum roll please.....The kickstand switch: The old one was cut and twisted together to override it and keep a constant circuit. Checked the connection, re-taped it, no difference. REPLACED the switch and put a factory original one from the other bike, and it WON'T EVEN RUN! Apparently, the p.o. had some sort of issue with it as well, and found that it corrected his problem by overriding it, and so left it. And it has had no problem for 5 years now. I completely hooked it up, bolted on the switch to the stand, plugged it in, and NOTHING. No headlight, no turn signals, I have a neutral light, but no starter. I reach down, unplug the new kickstand switch plug, and plug in the old stubby plug twisted together, and it goes right back to running but only in neutral. The other REALLY odd thing? When the bike is in neutral, EVERYTHING works perfectly--including the turn signals. The moment you put it in gear, the ignition goes haywire, and the turn signals start blinking really fast when turned on. Anyone have any idea what would cause the bike not to run at all, even in neutral OR with the kickstand up, when I install the proper factory kickstand switch?
Have I mentioned I hate electrical systems? uhg.

[Easy Rider]

Anyone have any idea what would cause the bike not to run at all, even in neutral OR with the kickstand up, when I install the proper factory kickstand switch?
Have I mentioned I hate electrical systems? uhg.

At the risk of throwing gasoline of a smoldering ember............. :roll:

You need a wiring diagram to see what the kickstand switch really DOES; that is, where the wires end up.

According to the diagram I just looked at, the side-stand switch has a diode in it. I'm guessing that is there as a crude way to prevent exactly what the PO did. That is, the circuit is designed on purpose so that a dead short will NOT satisfy the "stand up" condition. Maybe the PO did something else so that the dead short would work. Did I suggest that you try to contact him?

One side of the KS switch goes to a common ground connection that also serves.......the turn signals (ta da!).

The other side goes to a "side stand relay" in the fuse box; right next to the turn signal relay. It looks like they might share a fuse. Alas, the diagram is not detailed enough to see what the relays actually DO (I don't see the contacts on the diagram anywhere).

I think someone also suggested that you check for proper grounds; more than one person in fact.

I fear that the simple modification (removal) of the switch was more complicated than it first appeared.
You don't have a snowman's chance in hell without a diagram. Your chances might not be much better WITH one, as it isn't worth much for your kind of problem.

You're in quite a pickle, for sure. My guess is that you're gonna need a good Suzuki mechanic with a LOT of experience............unless you can find the dope that screwed it up in the first place.......or you just get lucky tracing wires.

(Epilog: OK, I proof read this twice before hitting the "submit". I don't THINK there is anything in it that is particularly nasty or rude.......but if anybody thinks otherwise, take your best shot (in a private message, please). I must say, however, that the temptation is ****VERY**** strong to say "told you so"......but that wouldn't be nice so I won't! :) )

[sportpsyc]

Thanks for the info! I will certainly check those two wire destinations out. The frustrating thing is, since the entire new switch created an entire new problem, I still don't know if it is the stand switch that is causing the original problem. The good thing is that I have a bike sitting next to it that is correct and all-original to compare to.
When I finally determine after all this it really is the stand switch that is causing the original problem, feel free to say "I told you so" :) If the problem is fixed, you can say anything you like to me--I'll just be happy it is fixed, however or whoever is responsible.

Thanks Again in the meantime!

[Badbob]

Get and study the wiring diagram. The more you understand about how it works the easier it will be to find the problem. The only way you can fix an electrical problem without a wiring diagram is to throw parts at it until it works. Redrawing simplified circuit diagrams will sometimes help.

There are some simplified diagrams in the service manual.

There are tests and troubleshooting charts in the service manual.

You need a multimeter to test electrical wiring. Without one your shooting in the dark.

Did you remove your headlight and check the wiring in the headlight bell. There is a big wad of it in there. Power for the whole bike goes through there including one connection that supplies voltage to the ignition system. Use a very bright light and inspect the wiring closely. A pinhole in the insulation in the right place is all it takes.

[5th_bike]

What I understand from the wiring diagram, and to summarize what has been said before, is:

1) If the gear is in neutral and the side stand is down, the neutral switch provides a ground connection to the side stand relay and the neutral light, and ignition (starting/running) is possible.

2) If the gear is not in neutral and the side stand is up, the side stand switch provides a ground connection to the side stand relay, and ignition (starting/running) is possible.

Therefore, there must be something wrong with the connection between side stand relay and ground via your side stand wiring.

To test this wiring, put the bike in gear first, otherwise you will be going to ground via the neutral switch. Also (just for safety, may be superfluous) disconnect the battery's + (red) wire. Then, check the resistance between ground and the green wire that's going from the side stand relay to the side stand switch, at its connection at the side stand relay ( I hope that's possible, never did it...[yes it is, see 'edit' below]). Also check the connection ground - black/white wire from the side stand switch. The green and black/white wires also have a connector (shown on wiring diagram) that could be bad.

I would not know what the function of the diode in the side stand switch is other than making the 'ground' voltage for the side stand relay equal for both 'ground via neutral switch' and 'ground via side stand switch' Normal silicon diodes have a 0.6 V drop. Anyone else has an idea about the function of the diode in the side stand switch ?

Edit: (add-on) please refer to p. 192 of the service manual for the location of the side stand relay. Unplug the connector from the relay and check the wire that connects to pin "C" on the drawing of the side stand relay, p. 192. It should be green, according to the wiring diagram.
Since your bike runs fine when in neutral, the places where it could 'go wrong' are limited to 1) the connection to pin C inside the side stand relay (unlikely, but theoretically possible; if you have a diode tester, check if the connection pin C to pin A reads 0.6 V)
2) the wiring from pin C to ground, via the side stand switch.

Edit II: little correction

[Easy Rider]

What I understand from the wiring diagram, and to summarize what has been said before, is:


WOW! Excellent analysis. :tup:

I think there is a really good chance that the problem is covered in that description somewhere.

A couple of additional thoughts:
Since there is (or should be) a diode IN the SS switch, is it possible that the wires to it are reversed?
Since you have a "transplant donor", I think I'd swap the SS relay, just on a SWAG.

Like 5th said, with another healthy bike and a meter, you should be able to find a voltage or ground that is different......and then try to find out why.
If I was randomly checking voltages, grounds and continuity, I think I'd start at the SS relay socket.
Both bikes, of course, must be in exactly the same state when doing comparisons.

Things like this are VERY difficult to diagonose by remote control.......but with enough brains involved, there may be hope yet.

[sportpsyc]

Okay..here's the latest...hope your brain(s) aren't tired...

On to the relay: I first tried replacing the actual snap-in relay. No difference. I then put my multimeter on pins A (the entry point to the relay) and C (the other side of the diode), and got .7V, WITH THE FACTORY SIDE STAND SWITCH PLUGGED IN, and the button depressed. As soon as I released the stand switch button, it went to 0.0V--so it is working correctly. Just to see what it was doing with the bypass plug, I plugged it back in (the one with the wires twisted together), and A to C gave me 13.2V--basically a direct connection to the battery without the side stand diode. Okay, so next I tried each one in the system. Touching C (which we now know is hot)with one lead, I tried D and E. Got 12.5V. Touching F & G, the turn signal relay, I got something strange. Key on, I got .3V, and it went to 0.0V when I put the turn signal switch on--left or right.
So here's the thing. I can't help but wonder if this is a common ground issue, which was mentioned early on in this endeavor. The headlight grounds ultimately to the negative side of the battery. Most everything grounds to that main line. Here's the freaky thing. With the proper side stand switch plugged in, everything is dead--all lights, horn, everything. Dead. The moment I plug in the side-stand over-ride plug, everything works PERFECTLY. Until, of course, you put it in gear, at which point it all still works, but the blinkers blink fast. But everything else is still working--the headlight, the connection to the turn signals, the horn, brake light, etc.
Of course, after reading the wiring diagram, the relay would have to be working properly, because the neutral indicator light is working properly in ALL conditions, which means the relay would have to be working correctly since the neutral light is the first thing AFTER the relay, and is on it's own circuit. SO, after that, we start looking at where the neutral light grounds too. And thats where things get messy, because there are so many things commony grounded. Okay. Anybody see any flaws with my logic so far? I pulled the headlight out, and I don't see anything obvious. This whole crazy nonesense of things working "better" with the override plug in has really got me baffled. I am up for round two of suggestions! :-) THanks everybody--I can't tell you how much I appreciate the advice and support with this one....

[Easy Rider]

Here's the freaky thing. With the proper side stand switch plugged in, everything is dead--all lights, horn, everything. Dead.

I have only one other thing to suggest: At this point, you may be over-thinking the whole thing. Forget what was done to it in the past. Put everything as near to stock as possible and trace the cause of the "total" failure quoted above.

Seems like only 2 things will cause that: Loss of a main power feed (+) or loss of a main ground (-).......strongly suspecting the latter, since you can operate off of a secondary, back door ground....coming from some really unlikely places......like a side stand switch that's shorted out (oops, was supposed to ignore that for the moment). :roll:

Put it in the total failure mode and look for +12 where there is supposed to be a ground. Don't stop at the first one you find, though, because there might be a LOT of "points" that are above ground that shouldn't be. Connect your negative meter lead directly to the battery for this test; do not use the frame as a negative reference.

You could also completely disconnect the battery and do a resistance check between the negative battery lead and points that should be on the "ground buss".

Have you taken a REAL close look at the wire(s) leading from the negtive battery to the frame.....I mean REALLY close ???
And any secondary large ground straps that might be nearby ??

I had an old Honda that I had to run a strap around the steering head bearing to get things to work right, an aux. ground to the front forks, as it were. Don't remember what the symptoms were though.

[Tonckawa]

Had a minor issue with Green indicator light working when blinker was on. For about 4 days. It stopped working. Today, it started working again.

[sportpsyc]

Man I wish mine would do that--Mine went the other way--everything was fine, and it all of the sudden for no reason just quit working. I think I need an exorcist or to throw some chicken bones nad goat blood on it or something. I'd like to beat it with a baseball bat right now.... I'll work on it some more this week--had to stop so I didn't spend all of father's day frustrated.
Next try: negative lead on the battery post, positive on every positive side of every switch and application on the bike until I find which ground wire has a short. BTW everyone--should I do this by measuring resistance, or would it be better to do with the key on and the system hot?

[Easy Rider]

until I find which ground wire has a short. BTW everyone--should I do this by measuring resistance, or would it be better to do with the key on and the system hot?

Technically, you probably are looking for a ground (wire) that is OPEN, not shorted......probably.

Hard to give a good answer to the second part. Resistance readings CAN be decieving......because of the aforementioned secondary or back-door grounds.

[Tonckawa]

Change the name of your bike to Christine, LOL

[sportpsyc]

Man, at this point, I would LOVE it if this thing was like Christine--at least Christine fixed herself when she was broken! :-) I don't mind if she runs over a few people and catches on fire, as long as she'll self-repair...

[5th_bike]

Okay..here's the latest...hope your brain(s) aren't tired...
On to the relay: I first tried replacing the actual snap-in relay. No difference. I then put my multimeter on pins A (the entry point to the relay) and C (the other side of the diode), and got .7V, .....
OK so the relay(s) is/are good. I meant, the relay 'as is' - not plugged in.

.... Here's the freaky thing. With the proper side stand switch plugged in, everything is dead--all lights, horn, everything. Dead......
Freaky indeed (see below at 1)

The moment I plug in the side-stand over-ride plug, everything works PERFECTLY. .....
No wonder, when it's in neutral, it doesn't really matter what position the side stand switch or any substitute is in.

Until, of course, you put it in gear, at which point it all still works, but the blinkers blink fast. .....
Maybe *that's* why there is a diode in the side stand switch, the blink frequency could be dependent on the actual 'ground' voltage of the blinker circuitry, normally, 0.6V-0.7V, but with the 'override plug', 0V).

... Of course, after reading the wiring diagram, the relay would have to be working properly, because the neutral indicator light is working properly in ALL conditions, which means the relay would have to be working correctly since the neutral light is the first thing AFTER the relay, and is on it's own circuit. SO, after that, we start looking at where the neutral light grounds too. .....
That is not totally correct - the neutral indicator light has its own circuit yes, from +12V (fuse nr. 4, orange/green wire) to the light, to the side stand relay pin B, to a diode to pin A, and to the neutral switch, to ground. The neutral switch also provides a ground to the side stand relay, which enables you to start and run the bike with the side stand down, if it is in neutral. You should consider the neutral switch as 1) a light switch 2) an 'override' for the side stand switch. The neutral light is not the 'first thing after the relay'. The neutral switch and the side stand switch are the two 'first things after the relay'.

And thats where things get messy, because there are so many things commony grounded. Okay. Anybody see any flaws with my logic so far? I pulled the headlight out, and I don't see anything obvious. This whole crazy nonesense of things working "better" with the override plug in has really got me baffled. I am up for round two of suggestions! :-) .....
Well 1) I would disconnect and then diode test the 'new' factory side stand switch (pushed 'in') for 0.6 V in one direction and 'no connection' in the other direciton.
Also 2) I would replace the "twisted together five years ago" wires with a solder connection, or if you don't like soldering, try to make a 'fresh' twist (cut old wire ends off, strip a little plastic, and twist together again, with a wire cap. Or, maybe better:
3) try to replace the twisted connection with a diode (normal silicon diode, Radio Shack you know, they're not expensive. To make it fail safe get 2 diodes and put them in parallel, but with opposing direction. Then, it doesn't matter which way you connect them, and you will always have 0.6 V over them. The signal lights may just start blinking normally (this is a wild guess....).

Thanks everybody--I can't tell you how much I appreciate the advice and support with this one....
Well first try and get it running please...
Apart from checking the entire ground circuit thoroughly, as Easy suggested, I would not know where else to look... We're running out of parts to consider...

Voltage does not say much. It shows that there is a connection, but not how good it is. Resistance measurements are a little better, so undo the positive battery wire and get the ohmmeter out. Measure between negative battery pole and every possible ground connector. As I said before, when testing the 'ground' wire that goes via the [side stand switch or the] 'override plug', put the bike in gear. When you measure, do 'wiggle' the wires a bit to see if the reading fluctuates.

[sportpsyc]

Will do--I have a soldiering iron, so I will give that a go just to be sure. I actually did re-twist the override plug wires, but it might lower the resistance a bit is I go ahead and soldier it.
To double check, to test the diode, I need to set my DMM on Volts, and put a lead on each end of the diode circuit, and then switch the leads, correct? One way should give me a reading and the other way should not (or at least a much lower reading), correct?

So to re-state your instruction for clarity, I take the pos. battery cable off, and put the negative DMM lead on the negative battery post (or on the frame for that matter since the neg. battery terminal just grounds to the frame anyway...), and the pos. DMM lead to every ground wire I can find in the system starting with the grounds closest to the battery. The first place where I get either an OL reading or 0.0ohm resistance back to the battery will give me the segment that has the problem. And resistance should increase the further I get from the other lead, I think. One thing I am not is and Electrical Engineer, so does this sound right?

5th Bike, and Easy Rider, thanks for all the time you guys have spent typing and thinking about this. I really do appreciate it.

[5th_bike]

No, your DMM should have a special 'diode check' mode, with mine it is a 'sub'mode of the ohms measurement, a little diode symbol appears in the display, and its readout is in volts.

When you measure resistance, anything close to 0 ohms is good. As far as I know, the requirement for a house's ground wiring is that the resistance to ground should be less than 2.5 ohms. OL means that there is no connection, and indicates a problem. Do make sure you make good contact, little layers of oxidation on metal often make it seem that you have no connection. Carefully poke the sharp point of the DMM lead into the metal, then you should be OK.

(Edit: about 4 spelling errors, and: to at least try to avoid the 'false ground' problem that Easy mentions below, try to unplug as many connectors as possible, and connect only those needed to complete the path to the negative battery pole. Do start with the green wire from the side stand relay pin C (unplug first)) Good luck.

[Easy Rider]

So to re-state your instruction for clarity, I take the pos. battery cable off, and put the negative DMM lead on the negative battery post (or on the frame for that matter since the neg. battery terminal just grounds to the frame anyway...),

Both for testing a diode AND tracing a ground, the meter should be set of OHMS, not volts.......but the positive side of the battery MUST be disconnected or you will let the smoke out of your meter !!! :cry:


If you are going to try to trace grounds with the ohm-meter, put one lead on the (-) battery post or the cable that connects there. DO NOT connect it to the frame. We are, after all, maybe looking for something that is connected to the frame but NOT to the negative battery.

And I've got to mention again (appologies to 5th) that trying to trace the grounds with a ohm-meter may not be the best way......because of secondary, back-door grounds. If you DO that, be suspicious of any reading above 0 ohms. Calibrate the meter by shorting the leads together to be sure a dead short actualy reads 0.

As long as we are doing this, maybe I should define: secondary, back-door ground. :roll:
It is a path to ground through another branch of a circuit or through another device when the physical ground is absent.
If, for instance, there are several things in close physical proximity that all need a ground, it is common to tie them all together and the run a heavier wire to the frame ground. If that common wire goes open, the negative side of the devices are still tied together. Sometimes one, or more, of those devices actually supplies a partial path to ground........so that a tiny bit of current still flows.....and an ohm-meter will still give a reading........although not enough current to make things work right and the meter will not read a "good" zero.

Whew. Sure hope "we" get this fixed soon. All this worry and effort is tiring me out !!!! :lol: :tup:

[sportpsyc]

Whew. Sure hope "we" get this fixed soon. All this worry and effort is tiring me out !!!!

I agree! Please, let me buy you both a virtual beer. It's nice and cold. :drool:

This weekend I am gogin to take the bike completely apart so I can get to everything, and spend the day in hell trying out all your good suggestions. How about if I get my web cam, and a long USB cable, and we can get on Skype and you guys can take turns telling me what the hell to do, and making fun as look like a monkey having sexual relations with a football and sounding like an adult version of Yosemite Sam. Sounds like a good Saturday, right?

To clarify one last thing, the longer a wire, the more resistance it has, and the higher Ohms, right? So it seems to me that if you have an Open Line (OL) early in the system, then it will either read OL or it will show a very low resistance. Another way to say it is if I am measuring ohms in a 10' wire, and I get no resistance, then something is likely WRONG, correct? Who'd of thunk that you'd be given DMM lessons on the GZ250 page. We have now elevated this forum to a WHOLE other dimension...do I get a free status upgrade from "Newbie" to "Official Pain in the Ass"?

[Badbob]

Copper wire has very low resistance. For example, ten feet of 18 gauge wire would have a resistance of 0.0751 ohms. If you have a wire on your bike that has any significant resistance. Depending on the meter you have it might not be able to accurately read resistance this low.

Wire Gauge Resistance per foot

4 .000292
6 .000465
8 .000739
10 .00118
12 .00187
14 .00297
16 .00473
18 .00751
20 .0119
22 .0190
24 .0302
26 .0480
28 .0764

[Easy Rider]

So it seems to me that if you have an Open Line (OL) early in the system, then it will either read OL or it will show a very low resistance. Another way to say it is if I am measuring ohms in a 10' wire, and I get no resistance, then something is likely WRONG, correct?

Terminology is important. Like Bob said, unless you have a REALLY good meter, the resistance of the wire itself is probably not a factor in the actual readings. No resistance (open) is different than zero resistance (short). On the old meters, measuring a wire would give a 0.0 reading and measuring the open air would give you an infinity reading; I assume that is what you are referring to as OL.

So, when measuring something that should be connected together with a wire (or equivalent), you should expect to see 0.0 ohms (or maybe 0.1). Anything higher than that and there may be a problem. (The first "problem" being that the meter leads are not making good connection!)

I'm not really fond of digital meters. I still like to see that needle move.

[Tonckawa]

Well. As simple as it is to your problem, my green indicator light stopped working again when using blinker. Christine....

[sportpsyc]

Okay, the bike is definitely Christine. I just spent an hour testing circuits, grounds, relays, diodes, resistance, everything I could think of to test. Everything looks perfect. Just like your bike, Tonckawa, it suddenly decided to fix itself. Works with the good kickstand switch or with the over-ride plug, either one. Perfect. This is the craziest shit I have ever seen. I just went on a 20 minute ride, and everything is perfect. Signals, everything. I didn't actually "do" anything, but I tested everything. So if it stays good for a few trips, this bike is going adios--it will be hitting Craig's List very soon....
The one thing I will say is that in the process of this debacle, I at least have learned how to use a DMM properly, and how to track down an electrical problem. So I'm happy for that! Thanks to all of you for the input and support. Let's hope that the problem doesn't re-appear anytime soon.

[Easy Rider]

This is the craziest shit I have ever seen.

Words originally uttered by somebody chasing a ground problem! ;)
(Along with a few others that can't be used here!!)

I would say that I'm glad it is working again.......but somehow that doesn't quite seem appropriate, since you still don't know what caused it. :cry:

[5th_bike]

it suddenly decided to fix itself.
No, YOU fixed it, probably there was a bad contact somewhere and just by loosening and reattaching it, you made it conduct electricity better.
Well congratulations on your newly acquired skills, and ride safe ! ! :tup:

[sportpsyc]

Well, I won't deny that something I did may have fixed it--in the process of testing circuits, I had every single darn plug undone and reconnected several times, all the way to the turn signal plugs. I am guessing you are correct-it was probably a loose ground wire contact in a plug. In any case, it is interesting that it now rtuns with the factory side stand switch, or with the over-ride plug in, when before it was giving different results based on which was plugged in. Can anybody not have something like this happen and not sit back and think-- you know electricity is mostly science, but it has some unpredictable peculiarities still as well.
Thanks again everyone.

[patrick_777]

Glad you got it fixed, although I'm sure you'd feel better knowing that it was fixed permanently and won't crop up again in the middle of a long ride.

Okay, really, just don't think about that. Sorry I mentioned it. I'm...I'm sure it'll be okay. Really.

;)