HELP! Any ideas about this problem?

[sportpsyc]

I just went and started my 2001 bike to go for a ride. It made it about 75 feet running fine, and suddenly started missing and running TERRIBLY. It sounds like it is only firing about every 8 strokes rather than every 4. It idles perfectly--only when you twist the throttle does it start. So I turn around and idle it back in 1st gear, and check this out! Whn I put it in neutral, it runs great--clutch in or out. But the moment I put it in any gear, even sitting still with the clutch in, you cannot rev ethe engine. It is 100% predictable and related to putting it into gear--but not moving or being under a load. Neutral=perfect, gear=will not run over idle. What in the hell is this, does anyone know? It did this once when the battery was dead and it was trying to run off it's own electrical output (did you notice how I avoided that one, Easy Rider?), but then it wouldn't rev at all under any circumstances, neutral or not. What relationship this thing has between the transmission and the electrical system is beyond me.... Man, and I really wanted to ride to work tomorrow. :cuss: Sigh....

[Easy Rider]

It did this once when the battery was dead and it was trying to run off it's own electrical output (did you notice how I avoided that one, Easy Rider?), ............................What relationship this thing has between the transmission and the electrical system is beyond me....

Only one thing would logically cause that...........but not really.

Side stand switch tries to KILL the engine when the stand is down (or the switch THINKS it is) and the transmission is put in gear. So, I think the sidestand switch is shot (maybe needs adjustment) but if that's the case, why doesn't it die completely? :??:

You have a DEMON bike that refuses to DIE !!! :cry:

Good luck. This one could be tricky !! :roll:

[patrick_777]

Maybe I missed it in your post, sport, but can you rev it fine in neutral?

[sportpsyc]

Patrick--yes, it revs absolutely fine in neutral. With the clutch in, if I rev it to about 2000 rpm and shift up or down into gear, it immediately starts missing and falls on it's face. No backfiring, just only fires about every 8-12 revolutions--enough to keep the reciprocating mass moving, but that's about it. Holding on the throttle, the moment I shift back to neutral, it goes right back to perfect.

Easy, I think you are right--I need an exorcist, not a mechanic. The (bad) good news is, it was the 2006 bike that had carb problems, and it is running like a champ after the old Seafoam treatment. This bike was perfect until...now. Oh, and BTW--the PO on this bike took the kickstand switch off long ago--so fortunately we can eliminate that at least. This has to be some sort of internal electrical issue. I am almost wondering if there is a short somewhere, which may have been what killed the battery the last time I rode the bike. I just put the new battery on it, drove it for about 2 miles, parked it, and now I have this. Just to eliminate the battery, I put a charger on it tonight until it was fully charged, and it is still doing it.

[patrick_777]

Right off hand, the only thing I can think of that acknowledges anything but neutral is the indicator light. Maybe you have a short in the wiring up front that's crashing the ignition system. Or maybe a fuse? Any lighting issues when you shift into gear?

[sportpsyc]

I just pissed off my wife by going into the garage and firing it up (she something about needing beauty sleep or something like that-hummmm...). The headlight is still fine throughout all situations, as is the green neutral light, BUT low and behold, the turn signals are acting REALLY funny--they are blinking at about 3 times faster than normal-both left and right. There is some kind of electrical issue. There are too many things stacking up on the side of a bare wire short somewhere--hyper-blinking turn signals, permanently dead battery, engine ignition problems. But where...where... hmmm. If it is a mechanical issue--I am 100% comfortable with fixing it. Electrical, however, makes me want to commit combination homicide/suicide.

[patrick_777]

Are all your signals and wiring stock?

A fast turn signal flash is a sign of a short, which believe it or not, can be caused by a burned-out (or not yet burned-out) bulb, possibly even the neutral bulb. I would say get out there and start pulling bulbs, but the indicators are a total pain to replace/pull out of those little boots. Trust me, I just changed my turn indicator.

Either way, with those flashers freaking out, it's probably a good bet that it's not mechanical. You might check all the fuses and then any "obvious" cuts or pinches in the handlebar wiring harness(es?). Make sure you didn't have something vibrate out or come loose.

[patrick_777]

Could be a ground interrupt like mentioned in this thread (http://www.gz250bike.com/viewtopic.php?p=442&sid=7e5c11578937ec07aefeff4702a314d7).

[Orpheus]

Could be a ground interrupt like mentioned in this thread (http://www.gz250bike.com/viewtopic.php?p=442&sid=7e5c11578937ec07aefeff4702a314d7).

I second this. Sounds like you might want to start tracing the wires and see what you can find.

[Easy Rider]

Oh, and BTW--the PO on this bike took the kickstand switch off long ago--so fortunately we can eliminate that at least.

That really isn't a surprise. THAT IS your problem. His modification has gone bad somehow.
I STRONGLY recommend that you put it back to stock........since it appears that it's not going to run the way it is.

Suzuki does some......strange.....things with their electronics. There is some anti-theft logic in the ignition module that looks for a very specific resistance in the ignition switch. If it's not there, it won't fire. There might be something like that for the kickstand too but I really suspect that the previous mod. was just done sloppy and a splice has corroded, or something similar.

Can you still contact the PO to find out exactly what he did?

[Added later:]

The turn signal problem is likely a bad (loose) ground somewhere.
That might also allow the engine to keep running when it should die because of the sidestand switch.
If you can't get help from the PO, it might have to go to the shop.

[sportpsyc]

The stand switch has been taken off for 5 years because he found it annoying. The way it works is that as long as the switch is out, the circuit is complete and the current gets back to the ignition box. Put the stand down, and the button goes in, and breaks the connection, and it dies. Take the switch off the end of the wires, and twist the wires together where they are in constant connection, and the stand switch is overridden. The thing is, the wires are either in contact or they are not. It either has a completed circuit or it does not. You can't make it contact every 8th revolution perfectly every time, and only while in gear, but not while in neutral. It definitely has nothing to do with the stand switch. It is too consistent and related to too specific a circumstance to be an intermittent ground fault or short. I think this has to be in the master electronics. I am going to check the fuses tonight and check the neutral position indicator that is just forward of the front sprocket as well. Since it happens in direct correlation with the gear position, that seems the logical place to start. As far as the turn signals, wierd things happen when there is a short, so the common denominator that links the separate issues must be the master electronics, a fuse or a short in the neutral indicator. I'll play with it tonight and see what I can see, and check a few things with the voltmeter--a reading from the neutral indicator going into the box should confirm or eliminate that. Here we go, oh boy....
Let me say thanks now for all of your input. Even if none of it works, I appreciate the support! :-) Hopefully something will though. I refuse to give those a-holes at our local dealership any of my money.....

[Easy Rider]

The thing is, the wires are either in contact or they are not. It either has a completed circuit or it does not. You can't make it contact every 8th revolution perfectly every time, and only while in gear, but not while in neutral. It definitely has nothing to do with the stand switch.

You asked for advice. You don't have to take it but you shouldn't argue with the advice giver or next time you will GET no advice. :cry:

The switch you speak of is ONLY EFFECTIVE WHEN THE TRANSMISSION IS IN GEAR. It does nothing when it is in neutral. Think about that for a second; exactly what your symptoms are except for the partial failure. What if those wires, haveing been twisted together 5 years ago, are now corroded or broken ???

Oh, I'm sorry......I forgot that it definitely has nothing to do with the stand switch. :neener:

And I won't bother to respond to your other "ideas" because you obviously know more than an Engineering Technician with 40 years experience.

Good luck. It appears that you will need it.

[sportpsyc]

Take a deep breath Easy, that was not some sort of personal attack on your authority. I was working under the assumption that advice was just that--advice! I am trying to work through this problem, just like others have in the past. If I spend a lot of money and time replacing that switch and re-wiring it, and it doesn't fix the problem, you will not have to pay the bill--you will have no responsibility for it. That is why I have to take responsibility for what I think is wrong, and hopefully with the good suggestions and ideas from people who might have encountered issues similar to this in the past. But it would be folly for me to patently accept what you say by cyber-diagnosis, without using my own thinking skills. I do not have more experience that 40 years of a licensed PE, or even of a technician, but I am a physician and a professor at Texas A&M University, and I grew up in a heavy equipment salvage yard rebuilding engines and working on tractor-trailers throughout childhood, so I have at least gotten far enough to trust the outcome when I use my brain and Socratic reasoning. But as a wise person once told me, seek first to listen, and then to be listened to.

I tried to relay my appreciation for all advice and suggestions at the bottom of my last posting, but I get the feeling you have a large psychological investment in being an expert on this site, and in garnering respect for your knowledge; therefore it offends you if you feel disregarded or argued with. I have tried to deal with that in the past by incorporating humor aimed at diffusing you in all my posts, knowing that no post on this site goes unread by you, and you have responded to every first post I have ever made here. I don't think I have offended anyone or been rude n the slightest to anyone here--quite the contrary. So to say that no one will offer me advice if I have the audacity to disagree with the advice is more indicative of your sensitivity and need for control than a statement of my having done something wrong. As such, if for you it would be easier and less anxiety-provoking to not respond to any more of my posts, I understand. But please hear that is not my intention, but I also do not want to walk on egg shells to avoid possibly offending you (since clearly I have unwittingly done so multiple times in the past).

To all those who just read this embarrassingly irrelevant post, I am sorry you just used several seconds of you life. As I stated in my last post, I most humbly appreciate all of your advice and suggestions. I will certainly update this thread when I locate the problem--including if for some reason low and behold it turns out to be the stand switch. Or the ignition cross-fire modulator, or the flute-jack rotary girder. I will even check the muffler bearings.
:tup:

[Easy Rider]

So to say that no one will offer me advice if I have the audacity to disagree with the advice is more indicative of your sensitivity and need for control than a statement of my having done something wrong.

OK, Professor, a small appology for being (much) more blunt (nasty) than was necessary. :oops:

But here's the thing: I made no specfic suggestions as to what you should DO to correct the problem.......only that you should CHECK the wiring and circuitry associated with the side stand switch because logic dictates that it is somehow involved in your problem.

Now, your answer said, if effect, I'm going to ignore your advice because I have postulated that it can't be relavent.

Maybe that's not what you meant but that's how it came across.

I see this happen every day on other sites that I frequent where one of the resident experts (not me) offers some good advice and the person who asked dismissed it out of hand. It gets very frustrating.
Sorry that you happened to be the one who lit my fuse. :cry:

PS I also think that all of your observed "strangeness" may be caused, in part, by a bad ground (neutral) connection somewhere.......but you seemed to dismiss that idea too.

Good luck. Please DO let us know what the outcome is.

[Dupo]

I'm going to jump in here quick ....

I think we all need to step back here and remember that you can give all the advise over the internet possible and you can still be wrong .. without being there looking at it, touching it and working on it yourself. We need to remember that all we can do is guide people and help them. Help them WITHOUT getting snippy because someone doesnt take the advise you give or might want to try a different approach an asks for opinions. Covering all bases is always a great idea especially when dealing with this sort of thing over the internet. Not everyone is a paid mechanic ... most of our members are weekend wrench turners and come here to help get their ride in working order when there is a problem.

So with that .... we need to lighten up an not take everything so personal or as an attack on ones intelligence. Offer the help ... and most importantly ... be nice. The idea is to keep members, not get on them so bad that they decide not to post any more. Lets work as a community instead of what this thread turned into.

J-

[Easy Rider]

I'm going to jump in here quick ....


Yes. Thank you. :tup:

One can quickly clarify a verbal communication; not so with a typed message.
Body language doesn't help much either!

[Water Warrior 2]

I'm going to jump in here quick ....

I think we all need to step back here and remember that you can give all the advise over the internet possible and you can still be wrong .. without being there looking at it, touching it and working on it yourself. We need to remember that all we can do is guide people and help them. Help them WITHOUT getting snippy because someone doesnt take the advise you give or might want to try a different approach an asks for opinions. Covering all bases is always a great idea especially when dealing with this sort of thing over the internet. Not everyone is a paid mechanic ... most of our members are weekend wrench turners and come here to help get their ride in working order when there is a problem.

So with that .... we need to lighten up an not take everything so personal or as an attack on ones intelligence. Offer the help ... and most importantly ... be nice. The idea is to keep members, not get on them so bad that they decide not to post any more. Lets work as a community instead of what this thread turned into.

J-

We should all read the forum with a smile on our face. It will make the words look and sound better. Try it. :2tup: :2tup:

[jonathan180iq]

We should all read the forum with a smile on our face. It will make the words look and sound better. Try it. :2tup: :2tup:

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