Well, she finally puked her guts out.... (pic)

[spldart]

Coming up the freeway and I started hearing bad sounds.
I pull off and i find me and the bike are soaked in oil and smoke is huffing out
the side with each revolution of the motor.
Something let go...

http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=770&stc=1&d=1488992132

Remember that piston, cylinder, rings, pin, gasket set I bought a long time ago
but never installed....
Welp. If the head is intact then I'm about to install it ;)

[Vegas Street Rider]

You didn't have anything better to do anyway, right Spldart? Hope you take lots of pictures to share with everyone as your project child progresses. Here's to everything going smoothly for you. Good luck!

[Water Warrior 2]

Looks like a serious imitation of an old H-D. :hehe:

Count your blessings, it might have just seized up on the move and locked the rear wheel. You don't want that no matter what. Luckily you had a warning sound to alert you of a serious problem.

Tear it down and look inside. Take pics etc. Your previous parts purchase was money well spent by the looks of it.

[spldart]

Looks like a serious imitation of an old H-D. :hehe:

Count your blessings, it might have just seized up on the move and locked the rear wheel. You don't want that no matter what. Luckily you had a warning sound to alert you of a serious problem.

Tear it down and look inside. Take pics etc. Your previous parts purchase was money well spent by the looks of it.

Lawlz the first line. :lmao:

I know the second line. ;)

I really hope your right the third line. :cry: Miss my ride already.

And yes! Lotsa pics.. :tup:

[spldart]

You didn't have anything better to do anyway, right Spldart? Hope you take lots of pictures to share with everyone as your project child progresses. Here's to everything going smoothly for you. Good luck!

OMG I wish!!! :doh:
This was the worst possible moment imaginable. :cry:
Lots of pics coming. :tup:
Appreciate the well wishes :)

[spldart]

I'm committed:
http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=771&stc=1&d=1489103526

Found three problems so far but nothing that new gaskets, seals and some silicone
wont fix.
New piston, rings and cylinder 'SHOULD' bring compression back to normal.

[Vegas Street Rider]

We will hope for the best for you. The power of positive thinking is underrated. Here is to smooth sailing on this project.

[spldart]

http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=772&stc=1&d=1489370776
http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=773&stc=1&d=1489370842
http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=774&stc=1&d=1489370882
http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=775&stc=1&d=1489370915

[spldart]

http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=776&stc=1&d=1489371130
http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=777&stc=1&d=1489371159
http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=778&stc=1&d=1489371217
http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=779&stc=1&d=1489371271

[spldart]

http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=780&stc=1&d=1489371656
http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=781&stc=1&d=1489371695
http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=782&stc=1&d=1489371744
http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=783&stc=1&d=1489372248

[derbydave]

So did you figure out where it puked the oil from?

[spldart]

head gasket wasnt blown out but it was wet with oil.
didn't find a crack in the head.
cleaned head up pretty good.
Hoping it was just the head gasket.

[spldart]

pissed off at mysellf that I didn't get picture of new piston in the new cylinder and I didn't get a pic of the cleaned up head combustion chamber..
But but the new episode of Walking Dead was coming on in an hour!

[spldart]

Motor will get it first start on tuesday or wednesday.
Only problem I found with the kit I bought from china was the compression ring for the oil control ring groove. It was buggered slightly in a small area so I had to straiten it a little bit.
Otherwise the kit fit very well.

[Water Warrior 2]

Good to hear things are looking up. It could have been worse. :clap: :ride::ride::ride::ride:

[Vegas Street Rider]

Can't miss the Walking Dead! I'm hooked. Daryl would be proud of you.

[spldart]

Started first try.

[derbydave]

Are all the strange noises gone

[spldart]

Nope.
She failed test drive.
Making what sounds kinda like a light rod knock or broken ring sound.
Noise starts at 2500 rpm and continues up.
However Idle sounds perfect.
Compression good, engine didn't sieze.
Even ran to Orielly's with it rattling away.
I guess I tear it down again tomorrow.

[Vegas Street Rider]

Sorry. That just sucks.

[derbydave]

Does it make noise revving the engine in neutral or does it need to be under load

[spldart]

Both under load and not. Same sound.
Idle normal.

[spldart]

Oki doki:
I have finished cleaning the old cylinder and piston, etc...
They don't look to bad.
I'm gonna tear the motor back down tomorrow and reassemble with the old suzuki parts and the new chinese gaskets that came with the cyl/bore kit.
I'll let yah know what happens.
Should know by tomorrow eve if the problem is the Alibada GN/GZ250 kit or I have something else humped.
When I was torn down I had no play in the connecting rod both ends... Maybe the crank or maybe the kit.

[derbydave]

How is your timing chain tensioner? that could cause noise when the engine is revved up.

[spldart]

Chain tensioner seemed in great condition.
I'm kinda aimed at either something starved for oil briefly, only 300 cc were left when the motor stared dumping oil, or the rebuild kit failed me.

[spldart]

http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=785&stc=1&d=1489622310

http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=786&stc=1&d=1489622365

Ground down the area on the head and I tore the old head gasket apart to shim the new one and gain some deck height.
Light that fire tomorrow.

[spldart]

http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=787&stc=1&d=1489627971

[spldart]

Is it just me or does the new Chinese cylinder have a thinner steel liner than the old Suzuki cylinder?

I seem to remember someone talking about boring these out for Kia pistons.
I seem to remember they were in the Philipines or Indonesia or something.
If they are dealing with the Chinese version of this engine then I'd say collecting
old US cylinders would definitely allow your options to increase.... increase. ;)

[spldart]

I have a runner. Update later 8-)

[spldart]

Oki doke.
BTW I further cleaned those intake valves when I ground that rough spot on the head.
Taking apart the old head gasket and using on steel layer as a shim for the Chinese kit's
head gasket seems to have resolved my problem.

Tomorrow I do extensive test ride.

First impression of the chinese GN250 kit on us GZ250.

1)Deck height is WRONG. Base and head gaskets are to thin.
*fixed that by shimming the china head gasket with one piece of u.s. head gasket.

2)Steel sleeve in cylinder is thinner.
*I've seen worse. I doubt it would be much issue. But NO overbores for the china cylinder.
u.s. cyl could easily take 1mm or more. More if your nasty.

3)It took 4 assemblies of the engine to learn this information. But now I know it I'm thinking I would suggest the china kit for the $100 I paid for it knowing you will need to take a vernier caliper to the gaskets and shim them appropriately with a dismanteled original gasket.

[spldart]

http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7734

[Water Warrior 2]

So now that you are armed with new knowledge is it safe to say the whole procedure could be a one time R/R ?

[spldart]

Yes.
I've learned the whole job can be done in the bike.
I've learned shimming the head gasket makes the kit work.
I still dunno reliability.
Time will tell.

[spldart]

It will need a second shim.
I can very very faintly hear clearance issues at rev when warmed up.
Otherwise running great.

[Water Warrior 2]

It will need a second shim.
I can very very faintly hear clearance issues at rev when warmed up.
Otherwise running great.
Tear down #5. I must compliment you on your patience and ability to solve a problem.

If it were me there would have been an accidental fire before teardown #3 >:(>:(

[spldart]

Tear down #5. I must compliment you on your patience and ability to solve a problem.

If it were me there would have been an accidental fire before teardown #3 >:(>:(

Why... Thank you! :D

I just finished putting in the second shim and decided to examine everything under magnification.
I have a crack starting at the spark plug hole and proceeding to one exhaust seat where it stops at the steel valve seat. The crack doesn't go through the head and I'm making compression so I'm thinking it's been slowly growing over time and prolly has nothing to do with the blown head gasket.
Another test drive tomorrow.

I'm thinking I'll keep this thing off the freeway from now on.
It took two hard years of freeway but that little motor isn't up for freeway long term.

[Water Warrior 2]

Gotta agree with staying off freeways. Far too fast and punishing to the GZ. The bike is wonderfully suited for secondary highways and are happy there.

[spldart]

Grabbed another 7 miles today.
Motor sounds very different than it used to.
It also shakes more at idle. Obviously the new piston isn't the same exact weight as the old one.
Motor is also making more heat due to more friction as it seats the rings. No biggie.

I did some searching on ebay and other places. Everyone is selling the same gaskets I got with this kit...
THAT'S TWO THIN!
The factory Zuki gasket is like 100 bux :(

[blaine]

Grabbed another 7 miles today.
Motor sounds very different than it used to.
It also shakes more at idle. Obviously the new piston isn't the same exact weight as the old one.
Motor is also making more heat due to more friction as it seats the rings. No biggie.

I did some searching on ebay and other places. Everyone is selling the same gaskets I got with this kit...
THAT'S TWO THIN!
The factory Zuki gasket is like 100 bux :(
Can you use two of the Thinner gaskets or is that too thick??

[spldart]

Can you use two of the Thinner gaskets or is that too thick??

The problem isn't the extra thickness... You might lose a tiny bit of compression but the bike would run.
The problem is the aftermarket gasket is composite-steel-composite from what I can see.
If you were to double that up I'm not sure heat would escape fast enough from the middle.
Old zuki gasket is all steel shim. No biggie. Heat transfers fast through metal.

If you sammich two ebay/china gaskets you would have *composite-steel-composite-composite-steel-composite* :wtf:
That composite-composite interface in the middle having no direct way to get heat to the engine.

Heck. Old composite gaskets had a metal ringlet built around the cyl bore to deal with heat and pressure.
These cheap gaskets don't.

Perhaps I'm overthinking things a bit but I've seen enough failed engines that I think I have some loose grasp on how things work. Meh :shrug:

All I can do now is keep you guys up to date on the longevity I get. Unless the head goes first :hehe:

[Vegas Street Rider]

Thinking positive thoughts for your GZ.

[spldart]

Thinking positive thoughts for your GZ.

Thank you. :tup:
And thank all you guys for dealing with my ranting and raving :wtf:

As a humorous aside.
The 7 mm socket I bought especially to remove the cover from the sprocket came in handy twice more just TODAY. :clap:

Room mates Crown Vic needed a spark plug replaced. Coil bolt... 7 mm. :)
Room mates Murray lawn mower wouldn't start. Carb to filter plate... 7 mm. :)

Didn't have a 7 mm. Needed for the bike. Bought. Now used on multiple motors. :tup:

[Water Warrior 2]

You can never have enough tools.

[wacio]

Put that old piston on the scale and write the weight down somewhere. Next time you tear the lump down you can compare the new one to the old one. Maybe you'll be able to get the new one to the right weight.

[spldart]

So... Breaking in the rings....
This motor is so tight I had to crank the idle near max...
It got massively hot on the way in to work this morning and had me worried....

Heading home, however, it sounded much better and I had to turn the idle down
twice. *tight motor loosening up*
Stayed at and below 4500 rpm on the way home.
A lot less heat and noise.

I have to admit I have never had a fresh motor so tight and run so hot even though it spec'd out properly.

No oil consumption, no smoke.

Starts easily.

Oh!!!! And another solution to the deck height problem could be multiple base gaskets for the cylinder! ;)

[spldart]

Put that old piston on the scale and write the weight down somewhere. Next time you tear the lump down you can compare the new one to the old one. Maybe you'll be able to get the new one to the right weight.

If I had the scale handy I would have prolly posted the weight of every individual piece cuz I'm :crazy: like that.

Anywho... Now i'm wondering if it was head shaking as much as it was this morning cuz it was gulping so much more A/F just to maintain idle than it normally needed.
This evening felt much more normal. * backed off idle screw substantially *

60 + miles on new rings/piston/cylinder

Tomorrow is another day :wtf:

[spldart]

Not quite the normal rebuild issues I'm used to though it smells JUST like a brand new motor.
I missed that smell ;)

[Water Warrior 2]

That new smell and no new sounds. Sounds like you finally nailed it down.

I am impressed with the close tolerances you found and rectified. The other point that has come up in the past is whether the GN250 parts list will work. Now we know the parts are interchangable.

Now get out there and enjoy the ride. :ride:

[spldart]

Interchangeable but not quite a bolt in.

Already know 2 layers of the old gasket had to be sammiched with new gasket to gain deck clearance.
If I had to do again I'd get a second generic base gasket and sammich that to be sure.

Report after second 50 mile commute....
Engine feels almost as good as new. Rings still seating. Idle screw set almost exactly stock now.
Valve lash noise but to be expected. As everything seats in I'll need to reset valve clearances.
Next weekend I'd imagine.
I'm now allowing motor to rev out for short bursts to 5000 rpm with a bit over 100 miles on it.
No smoke, no leakage and no oil consumption.

[spldart]

Chinese GN250 head is WELL over 300 bux.
Not sure I'd bother to replace that or just consider bike disposable if that crack opens up. Hrm...
If I do the head too you can be sure it will get documented here :thumbsup:

[Water Warrior 2]

All bikes are disposable eventually. So I am kind of curious, would you look for another GZ or is there another 2 wheeler you might consider?

[spldart]

All bikes are disposable eventually. So I am kind of curious, would you look for another GZ or is there another 2 wheeler you might consider?

I'm interested in a v-twin in the liter bike territory.

[Water Warrior 2]

I'm interested in a v-twin in the liter bike territory.
Have you given any thought to a Suzuki C-50? The engine is actually quite awsome. It would have been on my very very short list but lost out due to lack of ABS. I wanted ABS after talking to a few riders and how it saved their butts in various situations that they had no control over.

Now that I have experienced jumping on the rear brake on my CTX I am a big believer in ABS. The bike slowed dramatically with just the rear brake and nary a wiggle or lock-up. Gotta work up the courage for the front ABS. :hehe:

[blaine]

I have a 05 S83 1400......I love it.

[spldart]

Readjusted valve lash today. All valves got really loose during break in. NOISY!
Somehow had left blinker short out. Prolly some pinched wire somewhere during rebuild. fixed...
No extra idle dialed in any more.
Motor is perky and feels like it wants to point and squirt ;)

[spldart]

I have a 05 S83 1400......I love it.

Yah know. I've been peaking around the newer bikes, kinda window shopping, and I've found that I like the older cruisers better.
Even the harleys don't look as good.
imho

[spldart]

Welp... Developed a loud metallic rapping/knocking sound that goes away after warm up.
Tearing motor back down tomorrow to see if I can find it.
I might be ready to call these chinese clone parts $#!7 but will know more tomorrow.
Possibly more pictures to come.

[Water Warrior 2]

If some one paid you $25 an hour for your time spent on the GZ you could start looking for an upgrade bike.

[spldart]

If some one paid you $25 an hour for your time spent on the GZ you could start looking for an upgrade bike.

Indeed.
:wtf:

[Pmhearns]

I have a 05 S83 1400......I love it.



Hey blain, i have this too haha, i have stock pipes though...:tdown:.

And nice job for the information during the rebuild. Did yhe bottom of the jug by chance have the 2 holes? It appears that in your first several posts, the photo of the top of the jug has the holes and you can see blow by where the gasket didnt cover them properly causing exhaust tk escape and oil to stain the front of the jug. I noticed the NEW jug does not have those holes... any thoughts?

[derbydave]

Are you sure you have oil pressure and adequate oil flow? Valves don't just get loose unless there is some major wear.

[spldart]

Hey blain, i have this too haha, i have stock pipes though...:tdown:.

And nice job for the information during the rebuild. Did yhe bottom of the jug by chance have the 2 holes? It appears that in your first several posts, the photo of the top of the jug has the holes and you can see blow by where the gasket didnt cover them properly causing exhaust tk escape and oil to stain the front of the jug. I noticed the NEW jug does not have those holes... any thoughts?

The holes in the old jug are blanks. They go nowhere.
There is a formation that looks like it could have been utilized with those holes but it's completely unmachined.

[spldart]

Are you sure you have oil pressure and adequate oil flow? Valves don't just get loose unless there is some major wear.

I'm pretty sure I had to readjust because I used generic gasket sealer instead of suzuki-bond between the head upper and lower half.

I'll know more shortly.

[spldart]

I'm thinking I should have just used GENUINE SUZUKI PARTS.
:shrug:

[spldart]

I don't believe this ish!
Cold start today and motor sounds ok.
Not great but ok.
I'm gonna recheck lash and change the oil and run with it a little longer.

[derbydave]

I think you are chasing symptoms. Everything so far including the initial dumping oil don't point too a cylinder problem. I would verify oil pressure and flow unless you like chasing your tail.

If I remember from a previous post you recently did the clutch, The oil pump is driven off of a gear on the carrier for the clutch plates. did something get disturbed when you were in there working on the clutch?

[spldart]

Clutch was several thousand miles ago. If I had messed up the pump then it should siezed thousands of miles ago.
Each time I tear down the motor I have lots of oil in the journals and cavities under the camshaft. Even if I only run it a short while.
Even after a 15 second run I just did I have oil dripping from atop the valve springs.

[spldart]

Little more work and test drive.

[spldart]

I do have 2 unusual few economy checks after engine build. However.... They are so high I don't see how they could be accurate so I'm gonna run yet another mpg test.

Old motor was nearly rock solid 68 mpg.

Noise isn't getting worse and goes away with fully warmed motor.
Valve noise is gone after yesterday adjustment.

[Vegas Street Rider]

Sounds like things are moving in the right direction. I will keep my fingers crossed for you.

[Water Warrior 2]

I sure hope there is a good ending to this thread. I can't imagine all the time and effort going for not.

[spldart]

Third fill-up i've tracked for economy.
Even though the engine is making nasty noises my fuel economy seems to have jumped.
I went from an average of 68 mpg to 77 mpg.
To bad it still sounds like it wants to throw a piston or rod out the side.
600 miles on build now. Already changed oil at 300 miles. Changing oil and filter soon now that the
motor has loosened up.
I just wish I knew what the metal rapping sound was coming from.

[Water Warrior 2]

Other than the rapping sound it appears your efforts have been rewarded. I'm just hoping it doesn't grenade and hurt you while riding.

[Vegas Street Rider]

I'll second that.

[spldart]

Ok.... I stopped and thought about this for a bit.
Why isn't it blowing up with this metallic knocking sound?!?!

And it came to me Saturday. Derbydave's statement about chasing my tail.

I thought maybe this is something stupid simple....
So I take a mallet and start tapping all about the engine, frame and exhaust....
... And there it is... The left exhaust pipe is in contact with the motor case on the bottom.
Welp.. I bend it away from the motor case and went for a test drive.
The metal rapping sound is almost gone! The pipe was acting as a loudspeaker for all the engines
internal noises!
I just have a very very mild slap/knock sound now.

Bottom line.

The third tear down and reassembly was the last one necessary. Just needed to shim the motor for proper deck height and I was done.
My bent up, and cracked open, exhaust was my loud nasty sound problem.

Dunno why I still have a quiet rapping sound still. But hey! I can ride it without thinking it's gonna bite me now ;)

[Vegas Street Rider]

That is good news, spldart. May the force be with you.

[Water Warrior 2]

Excellent thinking and great results. Now we can get on to some fun stuff. Everyone in favor just rev your engine. :tup:

[derbydave]

I'm glad you finally figured out your noise. In my over 20 years turning wrenches I have gotten burned more times then I would like to admit when I started to overthink the problem.

[spldart]

81.623 mpg without trying.
Incredible!
Noise continues to grow.
Just bizarre.
Two sets of gaskets on the way for another tear down.
I'll post pictures whether it's nothing or I find something.
*I've run out of other things to fix so why not.*

[derbydave]

If you are going to be tearing it down again. I would check and make sure that all of your bearing clearances are in the service limits.

[spldart]

If you are going to be tearing it down again. I would check and make sure that all of your bearing clearances are in the service limits.

I had that very thought :)