Starter problems

[haraldduus]

Background: I was out driving in heavy rain when suddenly the machine stalled and could not start again. I found out that it was a fuse in the ignition circuit 10 Amp had gone. I replaced it with a new one.

I have checked the, sidestand ciucitbreaker and, clutch switch also. The problem now is that I can not start the machine with the self-starter, but only by running the machine .

It has gradually become more difficult, in the beginning I could even without help, now it is not possible without help. Everything in the electrical system havs been measured and tested and there was nothing that seemed suspicious. Relays have been thoroughly measured, nothing found. Ignition coil and sparkplug cap are replaced and the spark plug as well.

We also cleaned the carburetor through and adjusted the maindolmen screw and set correctly. The spark plug still appears to show that the machine dont get enough gasoline (electrodes and insulation seems pale and not "coffee-colored").

So what seems to be the problem, what have I overseen? HELP!!!

[alantf]

try blasting the starter button, red cutout switch, clutch switch and sidestand relay with aerosol contact cleaner. The rain may have got in one of them and caused a bad contact. :tup:

[haraldduus]

The selfstarter runs, but will not start the engine.

[alantf]

I'm no mechanic, but it sounds like a problem between the starter motor (if you can hear it working) and its physical connection to the engine. Looking at the wiring diagram, fuse 3 leads to the side stand relay, so it's possible that water got into it and caused the fuse to blow. If the relay "thought" it had closed, that would kill the engine. Someone may come in here and say if it's possible that the sudden engine kill could cause anything to shear between the starter motor and the engine. :hmm:

[haraldduus]

I can also feel the engin is cranked by starter, but it dont spring to life. So wtf is wrong :-( Ther is a spak in the plug. I end up thinking gaz, but Why can I then run it to start???? So confusing!!!

haraldduus mobil

[spldart]

Once it's started it runs and idles smoothly?

What's your compression ratio?
Not looking normal wear and tear but did your motor inhale some water....
A hot exhaust valve can crack bad if it's hit with water.

Real bad rain and all problems started?

Plug should look medium beach sand or light tan color.

Assuming all you have done.... You've have R&R'd the air filter right?

[haraldduus]

yes, when it get warm.

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[haraldduus]

It is not the valvs did a tune up after, just to be shure. Comp seems ok also. No to water in engine.

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[raul10141964]

Use the choke

[haraldduus]

Read the first part of this thred raul10141964 . Ther is more to it than using the choker.

haraldduus tablet

[spldart]

Still hard to start with the air filter removed?
Did you confirm spark during cranking without pushing? (timing light)
Did you actually run compression test? (the gauge that screws into the spark plug hole)
Did you set carb float level and idle passage adjustment as per service manual?

Any four stroke motor only needs three things.
A spark. At just the right time.
Compression. A piston and two to five valves doing their job.
Proper air to fuel ratio. Carb delivering 14.5 to 1.

Something in that pyramid is messing things up.
Water in exhaust.
Wet air filter.
Weak to no spark when cranking but adequate for pushing.
Mixture off.
Engine let go, to little compression to start easy.

And blowing a fuse just because of heavy rain is NOT right. Something else is going on.
Clean water conducts enough to mess up sensitive electronics but not take out a 10 amp
fuse without there being something else major fuxed up.

I've had my gz through torrential downpours and 18 inches of flood waters. It has never
blown a fuse or died on me cuz of it.

[haraldduus]

Hi spldart

I am in the hands of experts, My expertice ends at refuling drivning and minor repears :-) But I had two verry god mechanicks with me, and we tried a lot of difrerent, things. None of it resultet in a runding bikers :-( I will tak "this" with me and try again. :-)

haraldduus tablet

[Water Warrior 2]

Could be that the starter itself needs some TLC. If it is dirty and corroded inside it may need to be disassembled and cleaned up a bunch. The GZ has a smaller battery that can not overcome the dirty condition and still provide enough power to fire the ignition. Using a larger battery to boost the bike is a good way to fry a dragging starter.
Seen this in the past with cages. Dragging starter and a no start condition. Dead of winter and no place to plug in the block heater. The cage was power boosted with 24 volts finally and the starter went up in smoke. Me: outside at 40 below changing starter. New starter and battery charged up. Engine started first try.

[spldart]

Could be that the starter itself needs some TLC. If it is dirty and corroded inside it may need to be disassembled and cleaned up a bunch. The GZ has a smaller battery that can not overcome the dirty condition and still provide enough power to fire the ignition. Using a larger battery to boost the bike is a good way to fry a dragging starter.
Seen this in the past with cages. Dragging starter and a no start condition. Dead of winter and no place to plug in the block heater. The cage was power boosted with 24 volts finally and the starter went up in smoke. Me: outside at 40 below changing starter. New starter and battery charged up. Engine started first try.

This is a good idea. :tup: Water Warrior :D
I had an old kawi that would eat windings on the armature.
Made it nearly impossible to start except by pushing.
I picked up a used starter that worked a bit better then went to a rebuilder and
got enamel winding wire of one gauge heaver and rewound the original.
It was Way not easy to do. And you have to do it exactly right.

Ended up with a great starter motor... But I digress...

Perhaps starter is weak. Perhaps battery is weak.
If you try a jump from a 12 volt car battery keep the cranking to a min or you
will find that starters limits real fast and do serious damage.

Frankly. These bikes are very easy to start when in good tune and you have learned their idiosyncrasies.
By the way.
If it's real hot out...
Don't even touch the choke. Just turn throttle slightly and crank.

[haraldduus]

Tryed to change starter yesterday (had a spare) but that wasent it neither.

Så back to the wiering again.

haraldduus mobil

[alantf]

With the starter button pressed, and the starter motor running, have you checked the voltage between the starter +ve terminal and ground? and, what is the no load voltage between starter motor and ground, with the terminal unfastened from the starter motor, and the starter button pressed?

[haraldduus]

will get back to you with details of meshurements, but dont hold your breath :-) Have to get apiontment with my freind and tjek it out. As you wrote "I am no mechanick" Same gods for mee :-( I am in the hands of good freind with knolegde and some knowhow.

[alantf]

When I said that I was no mechanic, that's for the engine, but I was an electrician for fifty years, before I retired, so I tend to know more about the electrical side than the mechanical. :)

[haraldduus]

Ok. I was born into a fruit plantation owner famely that also made plantation eqipment, but never lerned the trade due to my age. The ptoduction was cansled and plantation sold. So love machines but knows little of what makes them tik and how they are wired. But I try to learn as I run into problems along the way. Learned alot from the Jinlun JL150 ;-) but unfortunently not enough

[haraldduus]

Ok, so.... Now we have trying to meshuere at all the points of conections at the bike and we did not get something "off" So I think that the cdi box must have gotten a "spike" when that fuse blew.??? Dose it sound plausable? Otherwise I am lost.

haraldduus tablet

[haraldduus]

Tryed a new cdi box. Same result. Buying a new bike tomorrow same model, but from 2007. Old bike will be fixed later on, ore used for spareparts. I nead my bike on a dayly basis, so... Now I got time to fix it with out getting fustratet. (I hope) Thank you all of you, for all your advise and pointers :-)

haraldduus mobil

[spldart]

Sorry. cdi boxes usually just let go or go thermal intermittent in my experience.
AKA they just stopped working or only work cold or hot.
Thus the timing light query.
Anywho... Hope you have great luck with your new to you 2k7. I wish I had a whole spare bike
just sitting in the the garage for spare parts ;)

[haraldduus]

Thanks ☺ Ende up with a Yamaha VX 500 virago with 16500 miles from 1983 for 21000 Dkr. Still gong fix the GZ. Hope you will get yours back on track

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