put 2-3 oz. of seafoam in gas tank; now won't start/dies

[gstam4]

hey all, i've got a 2001 gz250 w/ 23k miles, bought about two months ago as my first bike.

dealer i bought it from replaced the clutch cable, i think (or was it the choke?), after i was complaining about the bike wanting to die at lights. it was decent after that, but still 'jerky' pretty often; it's like, when i'm cruising in any gear, there's always this point on the throttle that, if i cross it rolling on or off the throttle, the bike jerks and feels uneasy. it's subtle, but a bit disconcerting, especially when i'm rolling on the throttle during a turn.

mechanic at the dealer told me the carb is easy to clean, so that i really didn't need to use seafoam in the gas tank; he did tell me to use non-ethanol, which i've been doing (and also added an inline fuel filter for me). nonetheless, i read about peoples' experiences with seafoam in their bikes, and thought it was worth a try to see if it helped with the jerkiness.

two days ago, i *thought* i filled the tank with gas (see below), then added a small amount of seafoam that couldn't have been more than 2-3 ounces. rode around a little that same day and it was fine. yesterday and today, it's a massive struggle to get the bike started (was worried i was going to burn out the starter), and i need to set the choke near max to keep the bike from dying as i ride around.

could it be that, even though i have an inline fuel filter, the seafoam broke up some gunk in the gas tank or elsewhere, which is now blocking something? any other ideas?

about the gas tank: i thought this was a 2-3 gallon tank, and since i got it have been confused about how quickly i'm going through gas; figured the bike's just old and not getting good mileage anymore. i thought i filled it two days ago, but today when i looked in the tank, it was low enough that i could see some of the bottom of the tank (toward the front). when i fill it at the pump, i keep going until it gets close to the top of the gas tank; i don't wait to see if the level drops if i wait without continuing to fill it (that is, if it takes a few seconds for it to fill somewhere other than the tank?), so is that a possibility? i've gone about 20 miles since i 'filled' it two days ago; there's no way it could have used that much gas, and i don't think there's a leak.

appreciate anyone's advice.

[Fawlty]

Sounds like you need a carb. clean. As you suspect, it is likely that the Seafoam has disturbed some dirt. Even though you have an inline filter, if the carb was dirty the Seafoam may have disturbed it.

Are you sure you have no gas leak? Check the air filter for signs of gas. Check your oil and see if it smells of gas. Unplug the drain tube that runs from the air filter box and see if there is anything in there.

More advice will follow from better qualified members soon. Good luck.

[alantf]

Have you checked the oil level window? If fuel is getting, somehow, into the engine, the window will appear full (with the bike on the side stand). If this is so, don't run the engine until you find out why.

[jonathan180iq]

Make sure your petcock is not set to the PRI position. It needs to be set to RUN.

If it was left in PRI, for example, it would fill the air box, flood the carb, seep into the engine, leak past the rings and start filling the crankcase with gas. All of these scenarios are bad things.

If your petcock is not in the PRI position, it's still possible that something is clogged or stuck in the carb as a result of being loosened up by the seafoam (like the float, for example) which would result in a similar scenario.

And, for the record, your mechanic is a bone head. All carbs everywhere benefit from staying clean. Seafoam, or Berryman's, or MMO do that and maintain a nice happy environment in the carb. Without a happy carb, there are no happy bikes.

[Water Warrior 2]

Remove the oil filler plug and take a sniff. If you smell gas that will be a strong indication of where the gas went. No Smoking when you do this.

[blaine]

Also change/clean the spark plug.It may of got fouled with carbon. ;) :)

[gstam4]

thanks guys. i apparently don't to have the tool needed to get to the air filter, but i removed the oil filler plug, and it seemed to smell like gas inside...kinda hard to tell (it was windy and i'm an idiot with cars/bikes), so i'm not sure.

i've never had the petcock set to prime - it's always been on 'on'. i don't think this disappearing gas problem is new - it's been going through gas like this since i got it two months ago. i just did the math and realized i've only put about 200 miles on it (!), but i've been to the gas station at least 3 times. the dealer i got it from gave me a 30 day warranty, and i had it back to them for a leaking gas smell and some other issues, but nothing major was discovered or repaired.

so it seems like i have two problems: seafoam treatment might have mixed things up so that i need to have the carb cleaned, and i need to figure out why gas is going where it's not supposed to go. unfortunately and predictably, i'm just about broke, so i guess i'll have to figure out how to break things apart myself.

[peanut]

I'm not a big mechanical guy, I prefer wires really, but if gas mixing in with the oil was the first thing on people's mind here from a description... Shouldn't the dealership have known what was going on when they had the physical bike???

[Water Warrior 2]

I'm not a big mechanical guy, I prefer wires really, but if gas mixing in with the oil was the first thing on people's mind here from a description... Shouldn't the dealership have known what was going on when they had the physical bike???

They were likely thinking the gas was an exterior leak rather than an interior leak and found nothing.

[gstam4]

yeah, i don't know if WW remembers this, but in an earlier post from january i mentioned that i thought the bike had a gas leak. dealer checked it under 30 day warranty and didn't find anything. shortly after that, i took it back to them as regards the problem with idle speed and dying at lights.

i'm tempted to try to press them by saying this problem was obviously there within the 30 day warranty period (indeed, when they sold me the bike), but i doubt they'll be willing to help me out. i'm guessing a repair bill would be upwards of $200-300.

[Fawlty]

yeah, i don't know if WW remembers this, but in an earlier post from january i mentioned that i thought the bike had a gas leak. dealer checked it under 30 day warranty and didn't find anything. shortly after that, i took it back to them as regards the problem with idle speed and dying at lights.

i'm tempted to try to press them by saying this problem was obviously there within the 30 day warranty period (indeed, when they sold me the bike), but i doubt they'll be willing to help me out. i'm guessing a repair bill would be upwards of $200-300.


It's worth a try, but it doesn't sound like they are much good. If you can smell gas in the oil, it is a good indicator of a leaking carb. possibly caused by a stuck or punctured float. Any mechanic worth his salt would be able to diagnose and fix this, it is not an uncommon problem. What is the oil level like, and what color is it? If you cannot get at the air filter have a look under the bike and you should see a capped tube hanging down, remove the cap and see what drains out. If you suspect the oil is contaminated with gas, you may cause damage by running the engine. There is no point changing the engine oil until you have the problem sorted.

[alantf]

i apparently don't to have the tool needed to get to the air filter,

All you need is a philips screwdriver. Firstly to remove the screw holding the side panel, then to remove the three screws holding the filter.

[jonathan180iq]

I don't recall what's necessary in accessing the air filter but I think it's just a phillip's head screw driver.

Pull the side cover and then pull the air filter and inspect it and take a good whiff of the hole in the air box.

Also, there is a drain tube at the bottom of the air box. It hangs all the way down and has a capped end under the bike. You can remove that cap and see what comes out. It should be some residual oil blow-by. If it's a lot of liquid, then you can pretty much bet that there is a lot of gas going where it's not supposed to go. If you can't do too much else, you can at least check those two things and all you'll need is a pair of pliers (for the drain tube plug) and a screw driver (for the air filter and side cover).

[Water Warrior 2]

yeah, i don't know if WW remembers this, but in an earlier post from january i mentioned that i thought the bike had a gas leak. dealer checked it under 30 day warranty and didn't find anything. shortly after that, i took it back to them as regards the problem with idle speed and dying at lights.

i'm tempted to try to press them by saying this problem was obviously there within the 30 day warranty period (indeed, when they sold me the bike), but i doubt they'll be willing to help me out. i'm guessing a repair bill would be upwards of $200-300.

Now it is coming back to me. Hate to be a party pooper but the shop is hoping for your repeat business as long as you pay. I doubt they would be willing to do anything that doesn't cost you.
You can't even get the bike to them safely anyway so I think you will have to fix this yourself with our help. The best part is you are going to increase your knowledge and spend a fewer bucks on tools or supplies than the shop would want.
Luckily there are some well versed carb guys right here. I am not one of them though. They can walk you through the process for a happy bike and put a smile on your face. Do not despair, the GZ is a simple bike and you can do this. :tup:

[gstam4]

if it's something i can do myself, i'm happy to try and learn the bike. makes it feel more like mine!

turns out my plastic side cover needed a hex key to open, and then the screws for the air filter cover were phillips. the air filter reeks of gasoline. (dumb question: how would gas get into the air filter?)

at a minimum, i know i'll be buying a new air filter, new spark plug, and several liters of cheap oil. i already have some royal purple 10w-40 for the end.

is the problem almost surely in the carb? if so, would i remove the carb, disassemble and clean it, figure out what the problem is, put it back in, and then do a couple of oil changes to flush the gas-contaminated oil out of my engine? or is there a lot more to it than that, possibly?

i was looking around for a how-to on the carb removal and cleaning, but came up empty. i do have the service manual posted on this site, but it's a little hard to read...def better than nothing, though.

[raul10141964]

... the air filter reeks of gasoline. (dumb question: how would gas get into the air filter?)



The carb oberfill and some of the exes gas go to filter box an some go to the engine pas true the rings an mix with the oil.


1- test the fuel valve, disconnect the fuel hose and test fore flow
on, res : no flow
prim: flow
2- check the flout and needle inside the carb may bi stack or dory


change oil

[Water Warrior 2]

Don't know if you are aware of the oil requirements. Do not use an oil with any mollifiers in it. These oils have an Energy conserving designation on the back of the container. Your best and cheapest oil is a diesel oil such as Shell Rotella. Any diesel oil or a motorcycle specific oil will do. I personally recommend Rotella because of the results we had with our bikes and it is available at a lot of locations.

[gstam4]

yeah, i got royal purple's max-cycle motorcycle oil.

i just pulled the air filter again out of curiosity, and noticed there's in fact a big pool of gas at the bottom of my airbox. awesome!

i'm having it towed to the dealer today ... we'll see if they help out at all. i'm gonna be kind of ticked if they don't at least cut me a break on labor/repair costs - as i realize now, this is the problem i had it in to them for while it was still under the 30-day warranty, but they apparently only looked for an external leak.

[JohnC]

Any diesel oil ... will do.

I would not accept this statement at face value. (It may prove to be true, but more likely it would prove not to be true.) First of all, Diesel engines use compression ignition and diesel oils are rated with specs starting with "C", like "CH-4" for a 4 stroke compression ignition engine; standard "H" is the 7th iteration.

Gas engines use spark ignition and oils rated (like) "SG". Any diesel oil you intend to use in a gas engine should carry a "Sx" rating as well as the "Cx" rating.

Rotella happens to have been tested to the JASO-MA spec, which is a motorcycle spec specifically designed to address wet clutch and transmission compatibility. Other Diesel oils may or may not meet the spec, but if it hasn't been tested there is no way of knowing. If it has been tested it will carry the JASO-MA rating as well as a SG or better spark ignition rating.

Rotella T6 meets the following specs:
API CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, SM, SL, SH; ACEA E9; Caterpillar
ECF-3, ECF-2; Cummins CES 20081; DDC 93K218; Ford WSS
M2C171-E; JASO DH-2, MA; Mack EO-O Premium Plus; MB Approval
228.31; Volvo VDS-4

[JohnC]

i just pulled the air filter again out of curiosity, and noticed there's in fact a big pool of gas at the bottom of my airbox. awesome!

If you've been trying unsuccessfully to start it, this may be "normal".

[Water Warrior 2]

JohnC, my bad. I have been lead to believe most if not all diesel oils will do the job. Rotella is certified and many riders used long before it was certified with no problems. I also use it in my Ranger 4.0 V6 with good results.
I must have written at one time that both the Vstrom 650 and Lynda's M-50 Suzuki were happy with 15-40 Rotella dino oil. Oddly enough the Vstrom shifted better with the cheap dino compared to Amsoil moto specific 10-40 oil.

[jonathan180iq]

Most people, especially newer riders and people who aren't straight hardcore gear heads, are going to purchase their oils from walmart or somewhere similar. And to the best of my knowledge, the 2-4 brands of diesel oil that are sold at box stores are going to work just fine for an oil change in a motorcycle.

Down on the chemical level, there are some differences between the two, sure. Like, diesel has the ability to clean and suspend harsher deposits than cheaper car oil. And this harsher cleaning environment can lead to the disintegration of chemically different gaskets and metals over time I suppose. But like everything else, for a simple clean out oil change and just to have something in the crankcase that will "do the job", you'd be hard pressed to find a diesel oil that would get anyone on the website to say "NO ABSOLUTELY NOT!!"

[gstam4]

got the bike back today; i had told them to take their time, and they fixed it for free, since it was the same problem i had taken it in for while it was under its 1-month warranty back in february. sounds like it was a problem with the flow needle in the carb.

rode two miles to the gas station to fill up, and then realized the fuel switch was on PRI; they hadn't set it back to ON, and i didn't think to check it. i flipped it up and hoped no damage had been done.

then i got home and let it idle for a minute while i looked around. to my surprise, i saw what the attached picture shows: a cable with a spark plug at the end of it, just dangling loose next to the engine. i took it back to the shop, and after likewise being surprised that his mechanic had left the bike like that, the service manager put the spark plug wherever it's supposed to go.

i'm not sure how the engine worked without the spark plug ...? (the one guy said vacuum-something, i think.) would riding it like this have done any damage? i took a 20-mile ride immediately after they fixed the dangling spark plug, and it seemed fine.

http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=25&pictureid=135

[mainlinecoffee]

Is that your spark plug? Where is that wire coming from? I'm no expert but something may be un right about that.

[grasshopper]

gstam4,
It looks like they used a spark plug to block off a vacuum hose. I would not go back to that shop.

[Tarzan]

I'm pretty sure that vacuum line is the one that goes to the petcock. It makes the fuel flow when the bike starts up. The spark plug was just a spare plug they used to plug the line while they were tuning it. The service manager hopefully put the vacuum line on the petcock where it goes and kept the sperk plug.
Riding the bike that way won't hurt the bike. When the petcock is on prime, it bypasses the vacuum function, enabling the carb to get fuel until it starts and creates vacuum. Then you turn the knob to run or reserve, run most of the time. Reserve when the bike starts to run out of gas. Reserve should be used to get to a fuel station.

[gstam4]

yeah, looks like that line, after the spark plug was taken off it, is now going to the petcock.

the bike seems to be riding fine. but i put 2 gallons of gas in it when i got it back earlier today, then did only about 35 miles since then, and the gas level seems to be pretty low in the tank (much lower than it looked after i put in the 2 gallons). my air filter still smells like gas, which means they didn't change it, but it's not wet and there's no gas in the airbox at all - and the oil level looks fine (not too high).

i'm hoping that i don't have a problem in addition to the flow needle (which i believe is what they fixed) that they didn't catch.

i'm going to get a new air filter from amazon soon...i'm sure having one that was previously soaked in gas isn't ideal.

[jonathan180iq]

....

Basically, to solve your problem, they bypassed the vacuum tube and put the petcock on PRI - they didn't actually fix anything. Do you remember what the specifically told you? I tend to lean towards not going back to that particular shop. You've reattached the vacuum hose and put the petcock back on RUN and you're having the same problem, right?

From what I recall, 2 gallons of gas pretty much fills up the tank, doesn't it? 35 miles after fill up and you shouldn't see more than 1/2 a gallon missing from the tank. That said, you can't judge fuel useage by looking in the tank. Fill up the tank, set your tirp meter to 0, go for a solid 45-60 minute ride, fill up the bike again and calculate your fuel economy. (Miles ridden / gallons to fill). On a healthy bike, you should see something between 50-60+MPG. If you get a number in the 30s or 40s, then you have a fuel problem still.

I will say, the faint smell of gas in the airbox is pretty common, as is the scent of motor oil, especially considering that it was recently filled with oil and gas...

[Water Warrior 2]

Jonathan is right about a proper fill and calculation for the amount of gas used. An eyeball guess is never going to work well enough. If memory serves me the tank is closer to 3 gallons U.S.
I have to wonder about the spark plug plugging a vacuum line. Seems like a goofy way to accomplish something. I suppose it works for the tech but I would opt for screwing in a small bolt finger tight or just slip in a golf T.

[gstam4]

....

Basically, to solve your problem, they bypassed the vacuum tube and put the petcock on PRI - they didn't actually fix anything. Do you remember what the specifically told you? I tend to lean towards not going back to that particular shop. You've reattached the vacuum hose and put the petcock back on RUN and you're having the same problem, right?

when i took it back, their service manager re-attached the vacuum hose; i had already put the petcock back to RUN after noticing it was left on PRIME while at the gas station a few miles earlier. the service manager's expression made it seem like it was just something dumb they forget to do at the end; i think they had my carburetor apart and fixed the flow needle. (i should have gotten more info, but was trying not to be a pain in the hopes they wouldn't charge me - which they didn't.)

so far i've only gone about 40 miles. still running fine, and still no gas in the airbox. i really have no idea how much of that 2 gallons of gas i've used in those 40 miles; how do you determine when the tank is full? when the gas would be touching the bottom of the fuel cap?

[5th_bike]

Right on, when filling and you look down and you stop when the gas touches the bottom of the rim around the fuel cap, it's full.

BTW I never put anything in the gas, and it always runs, even when unused for a couple weeks. But I do try and run it with no more than three weeks in between. Recently it sat unused for more than a month, and it still worked fine. I do believe though that when you don't use it for say three or four months, your carb wil gunk up. But not in two or three weeks.

[mole2]

Right on, when filling and you look down and you stop when the gas touches the bottom of the rim around the fuel cap, it's full.

BTW I never put anything in the gas, and it always runs, even when unused for a couple weeks. But I do try and run it with no more than three weeks in between. Recently it sat unused for more than a month, and it still worked fine. I do believe though that when you don't use it for say three or four months, your carb wil gunk up. But not in two or three weeks.

Ethanol gas can go into phase separation in as little as a month. That's the best reason to put Stabil in your fuel. Couple with that the fact that Stabil cleans your fuel system and it's a win - win situation.

Short story. I owned a 2005 Trophy Walkaround boat. I always filled my boats 85 gallon gas tank at the end of the season when I winterized it. I always put the correct amount of Stabil in the gas. This would be in September (when I was living in NY). In 2007 I hurt my back badly. I commissioned the boat in Spring and tried to take it out but the pounding hurt really bad. I immediately re-winterized it as I knew I would not be able to use it that year. The following year, 2008, I commissioned the boat in Spring and all was well with my back. That boat started right up with the almost two year old gas. Everything I own other than my daily driver truck gets Stabil.


:)

[gstam4]

update: after riding a little today, i parked the bike and adjusted the screws for the left foot pedal, which were loose. while down in that direction, i smelled a pretty strong smell of gas. opened the airbox and it was still dry, but then noticed that the pictured part of the petcock was wet with gas on the outside. (hopefully the pictures show where it was wet; when i touched my finger to it, the tip of my finger was soaked.)

so for whatever the dealer did earlier this week (opening the carb and apparently adjusting/fixing the flow needle), it seems i now/still have a petcock issue. (back in february when i first noticed a leak, i think they looked at the petcock.) anyone know what the problem might be, and what i should do next? i don't think the dealer is open again until tuesday. someone shoot me.

thanks again to all.

http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=25&pictureid=136

[mole2]

There should be a hose clamp on that fuel line. Gas might be leaking out from around the loose fit.

http://pinwall2.pinwallcycle.com/ebay/bike4916/400.jpg


:)

[gstam4]

dumb question: you mean 'should be' in the sense that there isn't, but i should get one, right? is that something i could find at any hardware store?

[gstam4]

i just took another picture. the whole cylinder-shaped piece at the bottom of the petcock (which has a drop of gas at the bottom, which you might be able to see) seems to be wet. is it possible that the gas is leaking down from the petcock (at the arrow), instead of where the petcock meets the clear tube? if so, does that mean i probably need a new petcock? (i doubt i have the skills to take it apart and repair it myself.)

http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=25&pictureid=140

[blaine]

If it's leaking from the arrow make sure that the two screws are tight (by "pri") ;) :)

[gstam4]

If it's leaking from the arrow make sure that the two screws are tight (by "pri") ;) :)

tight as can be. still a slow drip that seems to be coming down from the petcock, a few hours since I rode last.

[blaine]

tight as can be. still a slow drip that seems to be coming down from the petcock, a few hours since I rode last.
Ok see if you can determine if the fuel is leaking from between the tank & petcock.There is a rubber o-ring between the two. ;) :)

[5th_bike]

tight as can be. still a slow drip that seems to be coming down from the petcock, a few hours since I rode last.
On Mole2's picture you can see that there are five screws on the other side of the petcock that also may need a check for tightness.
You can probably most easily access those by just taking the tank off.

[gstam4]

got some clamps on the hoses, and it seems like that might have done the trick - fingers crossed. thanks all!

[gstam4]

scratch that, still leaking, to the point where i have a few small spots of gas on the ground after leaving the bike sitting overnight (also lots of gas smell). now have gas dripping from the petcock and the bottom of the carburetor and the hose running between them. the clamps that were put on (note there wasn't one placed on the hose where it meets the carb) don't seem to have done anything, suggesting that wasn't the problem. but based on the pictures, it sure seems like i have more than one place gas is leaking from.

given that it also needs new tires, i am seriously about to quit on this bike after all of 500 miles.

http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=25&pictureid=181
http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=25&pictureid=182
http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=25&pictureid=183

[Water Warrior 2]

Don't get discouraged. Ebay is a wonderful place to shop. Look for a new petcock to replace the old one or a rebuild kit. Look for a carb kit to rebuild the carb. Shouldn't cost an arm or leg and will mean a better selling price if you do still want to sell the bike. No one wants to buy a potential fireball that has gas leaking near warm parts.
As for tires...............well, you might or might not have known that going in but a person should always expect a certain amount of cost related repairs and maintenance with a used bike. Tires are maintenance items and safety items. When you get the bike up to snuff you will be more than satisfied and gained some experience and a sense of accomplishment.

[gstam4]

thanks, i'll see what i can get my hands on. as you say, probably a slim chance selling it anyway unless i get it fixed. (i've had it back to the shop i bought it from ... 3 times now?)

it'll probably take me a couple weeks to get my hands on a new petcock and carb kit. do you think it's dangerous riding around with a slow gas leak like that?

[Water Warrior 2]

do you think it's dangerous riding around with a slow gas leak like that?

I might do it but I won't say you should do it. It all depends on the amount of fuel leaking and the amount of risk you are willing to take.

[jonathan180iq]

Clean that carb off with a good dose of carb cleaner spray. You need to see where the leak originates from and you won't see that in its current state.

The drips and stuff at the bottom aren't leak points. I think what you're seeing is simply the effect of the leaking gas hugging the carb on its way down and then dripping off at those lowest points.

It is quite a lot that's leaking. Give the whole thing a solid clean and then wipe it down and sit there and look for wet spots to develop. It won't take long. And you'll know what's going on.