Multi-problemed bike (electrical + ???) [Archive]

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ImaginativeFig

01-22-2014, 11:25 PM

I don't even know where to begin... I have a 2003 GZ250 with 8,046 miles on it that I suspect is having multiple problems. It broke down back in October when I was on my way out to the Texas Renaissance Festival, then some friends who work out there said they'd see what they could do, but they were busy and only got around to ruling out a couple of things before the Fest was over. By the time I got it back it was finals, then I went back to Oregon for winterbreak, so my bike's been sitting around worsening.

The current (haha) most pressing issue is that the battery is losing charge super fast. I had a friend come over to help me poke around at it and he brought a tender over, the tender would charge it up, then we'd stop it and watch the voltage plummet about a tenth of a volt per second. It would always slow down eventually. Before we hooked up the tender, the lights would turn on and it would try to start, but various times after that the lights were barely visible. I started following the service manual trouble shoot guide for battery running down quickly

I have no accessories
The current between the negative lead and negative terminal was 0.24 mA (which I understand to mean that the battery isn't leaking)
I couldn't measure the charging voltage since the bike won't start...
I started to try and check the stator resistance, but it got dark and I called it a night

In addition to that, I've got a fair amount of oil on the cooling fins, much like kongje did in his thread "Source of oil leak?" It looks like the respondents to that thread said to tighten the exhaust bolts (I guess these are the same "EXHAUST PIPE BOLTS" mentioned in the periodic maintenance section of the service manual?) and there was a bunch of talk about gaskets and o-rings which were variously disputed... but would a leak there cause oil loss when the bike isn't running? I could have sworn I had oil back when my bike broke down, but I don't appear to have any now (yes, I checked with the bike upright, I even leaned it to that side.) I haven't noticed any fluid spots of any sort under my bike, where could the oil have gone? :confused:

Other than that... the bike doesn't go. Even when the battery seems to have a charge (lights turn on, and start-y noises happen [my friend said it sounded like it was turning over]). Spark plug's new, carb's been cleaned, I believe my Rennie friend said something about spraying starter fluid somewhere and it not helping. His conclusion was that I needed to do a compression test, but I guess first I should get my electric system in order... right?

I'd really like my bike to be running when my next job starts in 2 weeks... do y'all figure it would be more likely to happen if I sent it to a shop or can I try to fix it on my own (/with help from more knowledgeable, better tooled friends). My fears with sending it to a shop is that they might take a long time to fix it (since they have other bikes to deal with) and/or, they might cost so much that I can't afford it (I'm tight on money until this job starts up)... my fears with attempting to do it myself is that I might mess it up and/or have to send it to the shop after all anyway.

Sorry for being super long winded. Conciseness has never been a strong point of mine.

Actual Problem and Lessons Learned
(So someone coming on this thread later doesn't have to read all of it [spoiler alert])
The actual problem keeping the bike from starting was that the cam shaft had snapped in half. This was found after running all the basic easy tests (new gas, check for spark, etc), I checked for compression with a compression kit borrowed from the mechanic down the street, found it wanting, checked to see what the valves were doing, they weren't moving at all, checked to see what was up with the cams and found the problem. Pictures of that mess on pg 14. Suspicion is that the break was either due to shearing force caused by parts not moving right because of low oil, or perhaps due to manufacturing flaw.

The battery problems described above were fixed by taking it in to be charged at the mechanic, we must have failed to charge it correctly with my friend's charger.
Lessons learned: (added as I review the thread)

Be prepared for your repair to take waaaaay longer than you expect. Patience really is a virtue
Keep up with maintenance (especially, keep an eye on your oil!)
If your battery's being weird, get it charged/tested, most places will do it for free
Yes it's fine to change oil cold if you can't turn the engine on, it just takes a bit longer and it's harder to tell if you got precisely the right amount in
If you have the OEM spark plug tool, never lose it, also, be kind and pass it on to the next owner. To get mine out, I used a 18mm long socket and an extender, but at that point my deal was so long, I had to take the gas tank off.
When loosening a bolt, make quadruply sure you are actually turning it the right way, especially if you're getting at it from a weird angle.
(Related to above) don't mess up fasteners (bolts, screws, w/e) on your bike. Just don't.
The oil drain plug is an M14-1.25 (meaning it's metric, diameter of 14mm, pitch of 1.25, the OEM part is also 12 mm long, stainless steel, with a 17mm flange head) If your bike shop doesn't have it, the auto stores will, don't let them tell you they don't. It's the same as 2009-2012 F350/450/550 Super Duty truck, among others.
If you're ever having trouble finding a special bolt like that, get one of the customer service peeps to give you the specifications (particularly diameter and pitch) and then google those and see what else uses it
Yes, the starter plunger (choke) should come fairly freely when you unscrew the nut that holds it to the carb, if it refuses, it's probably gunked up and the spring's probably being crappy. I let WD-40 sit on it and eventually worked it out (I have since learned the wonders of penetrating oil and would imagine that would do even better)
Buy penetrating oil (I got P'Blaster) and degreaser (I got DuPont for chain and sprocket). Just do it. They're great.
GZ250s' gas system is vacuum fed, there is no off switch, but on or res will keep the gas from flowing if you disconnect the hose from the carb, conversely pri will make it flow freely.
There is a drain screw on the bottom of the carb, unscrewing it will let gas out the float drain tube so that your disconnected carb doesn't randomly spit gas at you
After reconnecting your carb, prime it for a few seconds to re-fill the float...
Before you prime the carb, make sure the float drain screw is tightened, unless your floor is thirsty for gas. (Around page 10 are lots of good carb tips that I'll probably need again later)
The screws that hold your float bowl on are JIS #2 because Japan hates you. (Getting a JIS screw driver may not actually help you, however, because your carb hates you too)
If spark's good, battery's good, the bike's turning over, the carb's clean, and starter fluid sprayed in the air box doesn't make the bike go, check compression (you may be able to borrow a compression test kit from a mechanic if you're friendly and willing to leave a deposit)
GN250 cylinder head (along with most other parts) is interchangeable with GZ250
Ebay's great and all, but make sure you get and look closely at pics from all angles before you buy
When putting the generator cover tighten down the two long bolts that have the cylinder cans around their holes first, just until the cover is sitting on the bike, then tighten all the bolts evenly.
When any tightening bolts on your bike, first look in relevant sections for specific tightening instructions, if there are none, refer to the table on page 7-25 (222) of the service manual (the chart is also on page 17 of this thread)
If you have odd timing issues after putting the rotor back on, your woodruff key (the metal semi-circle that keeps the slots in the rotor and shaft aligned) has probably come out.
When pushing on the rotor by hand, turn the idle starter gear behind it to get the rotor snugged all the way back, then impact the nut on.

mainlinecoffee

01-23-2014, 01:27 AM

The electrical could be generator stator or a short,if it's cranking but not starting it could be a safety switch in the kickstand or clutch.

alantf

01-23-2014, 06:46 AM

First of all, test the battery. With your problems, it might be best to remove it from the bike. Charge it overnight at around 0.6 amps, remove the charger. Test voltage between terminals. Leave it for half an hour, then test voltage between terminals again. Let us know the results.

I had really bad starting problems a couple of weeks ago. I was convinced that it was a carb problem, but the test I've shown, above, showed a weak battery. Replaced the battery, and all the problems went away. But don't just guess - do the test and let us know the results.

ImaginativeFig

01-23-2014, 09:35 AM

I do not currently own a charger/tender/whatever, I've been meaning to get one since they're pretty derned useful/important. Any recommendations on what to get? I'm low on money, but I don't wanna go cheap and get something useless.

Goose51683

01-23-2014, 12:20 PM

If you said you had a friend that put your bike on a tender see if you can borrow his for a day or two. It should only take a night to charge your battery and test it the next day.

In the mean time I would take another look at the engine and see if you can find any causes for your missing oil. Did you take a look at the spark plug recently? does it look fouled at all? Also, when you pull the spark plug you might as well check the compression real quick to either confirm its and issue or rule it out.

Just some thoughts.

jonathan180iq

01-23-2014, 12:51 PM

Goose51683

01-23-2014, 01:06 PM

Jonathan's right (as irritating as that is, it tends to be true), these bikes are incredibly simple which is part of the joy of owning one.

jonathan180iq

01-23-2014, 01:16 PM

Jonathan's right (as irritating as that is, it tends to be true)

http://www.0-60mag.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/83139703.gif

alantf

01-23-2014, 01:26 PM

Hey Jonathan..............It WILL start with the kickstand down (so long as it's in neutral) It's when you put it in gear with the stand down that it comes in and cuts the engine.

ImaginativeFig

01-23-2014, 01:51 PM

Do you THINK you had oil in the bike before you let it sit or did you definitely have the proper amount of oil in the bike? That's a big difference when it comes to brainstorming, ya know what I mean?

To rule out the possibility of memory error, just change the oil. It's all of $10 and you'll know, going forward, that there is oil in the bike and that it's at the proper level.
I said "could have sworn" and I meant "could have sworn" I have a terrible memory, so it could have been gone for a while, but I tend to check the oil level and my friends who looked at the bike also didn't note it being low, so... there's that.
But yeah, there's no oil, so obviously I need to "change" it (not sure how well that word applies if there isn't any to take out, but I'll open the drain and see what happens.) You put a pan under for oil to go into, but what happens after that with old oil? You put it in some container and put it under your pillow for the oil fairy to take?

After you change the oil, clean the engine and fins and underside of the bike. This will allow you the opportunity to check for any leaks that might be there.
How do you guys recommend cleaning the fins? They're fairly deep and narrow... also what liquid(s) are recommended?

The bolts that people recommend torquing aren't just the exhaust bolts. Those are usually tweaked when people have an exhaust leak. The head bolts are what get snugged down when you're seeing more oil on the cooling fins. You remove the tank to access these, IIRC. Torque specs are in the service manuals.
So should I try doing something with those or just wait and see where/if oil pops up when/if I get Coot (the bike) up and running?

Take the battery off the bike, drive over to Autozone or your other favorite autoparts store, and they will test the battery for free. I can almost bet money that it's bad. And even if this isn't the biggest Gremlin, it needs to be done.
I'll do that, except for the driving bit... with Coot outta commission it's feet or bus.

Is your gas fresh?
No, it's from October and has been sitting in my tank through whatever weather's happened since then. Much like the oil fairy, I don't know how the gas fairy works. Am I gunna hafta by gas cans and take them somewhere for disposal?
How do you even get gas out? I have a feeling opening up the top and turning the fuel tank upside down is not the correct technique.

Have you pulled the plug just to give it a good little cleaning (replacing is only like $5)
The spark plug has been replaced since the bike broke down and has not magically fouled while sitting dormant.

Aired up the tires? ("Why? I want to it to crank" - just do it.)
Uh... I guess I could... it would be a lot easier to do if I could ride the bike to air though...

You can do this. You don't need to take it to a shop. We are all here for you.
You guys are kinda awesome, just thought you should know. (That's not just at Jonathan, the rest of you are cool for your replies and I've been going through random other threads, reading and learning)

Goose51683

01-23-2014, 02:18 PM

Wow that s a lot of questions.

You can usually take used oil to a mechanic or autozone (or similar) and they will take it)

You can use Q-tips to help clean between the fins, that or a twisted up rag, whatever works.

For the head bolts, I would put a wrench on it and make sure they are at least reasonably tight, if you had a torque wrench you could check that way but not to many people have torque wrenches starting out

As far as removing the gas, you can pull the small black hose that goes from your petcock (the gas selector switch) to your carb, direct that into a gasoline safe container, and then turn the petcock to prime and it should drain out. Then hook the little black hose back up to the carb.

And yes...we are awesome.

Guys, did I miss and mess anything up there?

Goose51683

01-23-2014, 02:19 PM

John, from now on when I think of you I will think of Ace Ventura....it probably fits better than I'll ever know.

alantf

01-23-2014, 03:35 PM

Like goose said, use whatever to clean the fins. Everyone has a different way, but the one I use is a squirt of zippo lighter fuel to soften the oil, then an old toothbrush for the easy to reach places, then a piece of paper kitchen towel (soaked in zippo fuel) wrapped round a screwdriver to get to the awkward bits. Just be imaginative, and do what suits you. ;)

alantf

01-23-2014, 03:44 PM

BTW... No "iff's", "but's", or excuses. Get the battery checked NOW. :p

Another quick heads up...When you get the new oil in, a quick check before every ride .....If you can see oil in the window while it's still on the stand, pull the bike upright, and if you see oil shoot up the glass (it'll change from a clear glass to a brown glass :rolleyes:) you'll know you're good to go.

ImaginativeFig

01-23-2014, 03:46 PM

Goodness gracious good mood, good mood *knock on wood*
I came home to google where the closest service-y place is, not only is the Batteries Plus where I bought my battery less than a mile from my house, but the shop in my town that stocks lots of Suzuki parts is right by it. I could push Cooter there if need be!

So I headed out to buy oil and get my battery tested and as soon as I step out the door, there's a dollar bill sitting on my door step (litter regularly blows into my front yard and it's a particularly windy day today). If finding a penny's good luck, a dollar must be 100x that, right?

Anyhoozles, I got to the shop and they said my battery was untestably dead, but they could charge it up and test it and call me with results (which sounds kinda like the ill-advised quick charge that I saw you guys railing against in another thread, but maybe they're not charging it up all the way? I should have clarified, but I'm kinda assuming the battery's toast at this point anyway).

I talked to the counter guy about swapping out dead gas and if they had a receptacle or whatever for it and he asked if I knew how to take the old gas out and because of you guys I was able to give the right answer and sound like someone who knows some stuff (but only a little).

Water Warrior 2

01-23-2014, 04:01 PM

Nobody mentioned it yet so I will. Are the battery connections good and tight?? Are they clean and free of corrosion?? A loose connection will not allow a good contact.
As for the gas I would agree with draining the tank and starting with some fresh gas with some Seafoam added to help clean things up internally.
Testing the battery at a parts store is free so do as suggested. If it is bad a new one will likely solve most of your problems. These bikes need a little TLC like any other bike but the rewards are gigantic and satisfying.

Oh.....after the fins on the engine are cleaned up you can sprinkle some talcum powder on them to show where the source of oil is coming from after you get it running.
Ditto on the tire pressures too. I would always run 2up tire pressures for less tire wear.

jonathan180iq

01-23-2014, 04:09 PM

http://www.ginorthwest.org/pages/uploaded_images/fake%20it.jpg
For Iffy.

Good use of multi-quotes from a forum noob. You will not, however, receive the same kind treatment from me.

Yes, by "changing" the oil it means to drain what was in there previously and replace with it a fresh amount of over-processed dinosaur remains of your choosing. While it may not appear to have any oil in the sight glass, there is, undoubtedly, some oil still in the crankcase. Also, don't listen to anyone else on the forum but me. There IS such thing as an oil fairy. Simply place the open topped container of used under your bed at night and by morning it will be gone. Oil fairies also are said to love children and pets. Make sure your open container of used motor oil is located within access to them so that they can share in the magic.

Cleaning fins requires something as complex as a stiff bristled brush and some foaming engine degreaser.

Leave the bolt torquing alone until you discover the actual source of the leak. These things are known for a very common brown residue that emanates sometime after purchase and really never goes away or worsens. Let's make sure that's not your issue before we go getting all heavy handed on some feeble nuts.

Feet are good.

If this were the 1970's I would just tell you to pour you old gas down the drain and help enliven the fishes of your local watering hole. Unlike the oil, there are no fairies for gas removal. It's suitable fuel still. Save it for your lawnmower.

There's lot's of magic in these parts. Replace the spark plug again anyway...actually, do it about 4 times. 4 is a magic number.

It's going to be hard to ride the bike to air, since they are bound by the limits of gravity and thus will only ever be able to be ridden to road. But knock yourself out.

We are the coolest, foshizzle. Anyhoozles, good luck. And keep us posted.

ImaginativeFig

01-23-2014, 04:10 PM

ok. So I got 2 quarts of oil and I'm waiting for results of battery test...
The service manual (and Jonathan's oil changing thread) says oil should be replaced when the engine is warm, does that mean that I should wait 'til the engine is a goin' or will I need the oil in there to make the whole going thing happen?

ImaginativeFig

01-23-2014, 04:17 PM

I'm a noob to this forum, but I was on a site that was once called go-gaia for the majority of highschool. Like seriously, that was my social life. I'm a cool kid.

You guys seem to swear by this seafoam stuff. I guess I'll have to acquire some.

The oil they gave (sold) me was (reading straight down the bottle) SAE 10W-40 Kawasaki Performance Oils 4-Stroke Engine Oil ATV/UTV... I see no API starbursts anywhere. Does that mean it's not certified? Should I take it back? On the back it says "Service Category CJ-4/SL, JASO MA and JASO MA2 engine oil"

Goose51683

01-23-2014, 04:26 PM

You are going to want to make sure you have the proper level of oil when you try to crank the bike over. NEVER ever turn over a motor without oil in it.

After you get the cooter running again you can get the engine warm and then check the level again but don't wait.

Also, I've been around for a few months and still don't know how you did that whole quote thing so you're one up on me.

Otherwise it sounds like you've got some good fortune on your side. Hopefully you and your cooter are back in tip top shape soon.

Water Warrior 2

01-23-2014, 04:30 PM

It is best to have the engine warmed a bit to thin out the oil so it drains more readily. In your case I would just change it regardless of temp. That said.....when you add the new oil, fill it to the full mark with the bike upright. After you do get it started and running the level may go down. Check it after the bike has been shut off for a couple minutes to see where the actual level is.
Did you get moto specific oil? A regular car oil will not do the bike any good. Shell Rotella(diesel) will work wonderfully and one of the cheapest on the market. It has no mollifiers in it to mess up the clutch plates just like a moto specific oil. Great success in 2 of our bikes. Carry on Iffy.

ImaginativeFig

01-23-2014, 05:00 PM

@__@ as I said before, it appears to be ATV oil. I don't even know. Should I try to return it when I go back for the battery?

Cathy

01-23-2014, 05:09 PM

Qasual:

Gaia online was so good back then.

jonathan180iq

01-23-2014, 05:11 PM

@__@ as I said before, it appears to be ATV oil. I don't even know.

THIS?
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Kawasaki-Performance-Oil-4-Stroke-SAE-10W-40-ATV-UTV-1-U-S-Quart-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqIOKiYE5NW!RlBeBO,ijPh-,g~~60_35.JPG

ImaginativeFig

01-23-2014, 05:30 PM

Qasual:

Gaia online was so good back then.
I've tried to go back a few times, it's just too complicated now... There was a period of time where I'd sign in every few months to change my avi's clothes and check pm's, but it's probably been over a year since the last time

THIS?
[img]
My bottle looks cooler, but yeah, same words n' shit.

alantf

01-23-2014, 06:47 PM

The reason you need the oil warm to change it is just that as the oil gets warm it gets thinner, so it runs out of the drain hole quicker, and more completely. ;)

ImaginativeFig

01-24-2014, 09:51 PM

Got the battery back, they said it's just fine. I just checked the voltage, it's still at 12.7 V. So... it's not the battery?

I got rid of the old gas and acquired an oil pan and my friend talked me into buying a torque wrench. I almost bought some seafoam, but decided to see if it was cheaper elsewhere. Turns out it's cheaper at Target than O'Reilley's. Looked in to getting a sparkplug socket, since I recieved none of the OEM toolkit, but Action Sports (the nearby parts store/dealer) only had them for $21. Butts. O'Reilleys had a 18mm sparkplug socket for <$5, but they didn't have it in stock and I wasn't sure if it was thin walled enough to fit in our tight space...would it work?

Tomorrow I wanna go get an oil filter (is there some specific part I'm looking for or are they pretty standard?), buy some fresh gas, and see if I can get something to extract that derned sparkplug (that doesn't cost $20)

blaine

01-24-2014, 11:21 PM

Got the battery back, they said it's just fine. I just checked the voltage, it's still at 12.7 V. So... it's not the battery?
It would seem that the battery is fine.I think I would be more concerned as to were the oil went or if the bike ran dry of oil which would point to a larger problem.I hope that is not the case. ;) :)

Water Warrior 2

01-25-2014, 12:05 AM

Any parts store or small engine repair shop will likely have a HiFlo-HF136 oil in stock. Cheaper than Suzuki but they are the same. Very common in small engines.

alantf

01-25-2014, 06:08 AM

Now that you know the battery's fine, a quick check on the charging system won't hurt. Once you get the oil into the bike (so you can start it up) put the battery back on the bike. With your voltmeter across the battery terminals, rev up to around 4000 RPM, and you should see the voltage shoot up to over 13 volts.

grasshopper

01-25-2014, 09:29 AM

Any parts store or small engine repair shop will likely have a HiFlo-HF136 oil in stock. Cheaper than Suzuki but they are the same. Very common in small engines.

HiFlo-HF136 oil FILTER.

ImaginativeFig

01-25-2014, 11:24 AM

(so you can start it up)
That's a funny joke. The bike hasn't started since October.

I'm heading out to get an oil filter, gas, an 18mm deep (thinwalled?) socket, and seafoam, will change oil and add gas (since I got rid of the stale stuff yesterday) when I return. How much seafoam do y'all put in? We dipped the carb in carb cleaner back in November, so it should just be a maintenance dose.

blaine

01-25-2014, 03:39 PM

That's a funny joke. The bike hasn't started since October.

I'm heading out to get an oil filter, gas, an 18mm deep (thinwalled?) socket, and seafoam, will change oil and add gas (since I got rid of the stale stuff yesterday) when I return. How much seafoam do y'all put in? We dipped the carb in carb cleaner back in November, so it should just be a maintenance dose.

About 3 ozs will be fine. ;) :)

grasshopper

01-25-2014, 08:32 PM

ImaginativeFig

01-25-2014, 09:46 PM

Ugh. Today was... let's say, unproductive.

Today the plan was to go buy the aforementioned things, change the oil, then go with a friend to meet up with a guy from craigslist who needs help fixing his house, then I was gunna go hang with some girlfriends, maybe come home and dick around with the bike a bit more...

Instead, this morning I came back from my shopping rounds and tried to take the oil plug bolt off. Unfortunately I'm lacking in spatial reasoning and spent the first 20 minutes trying--and marginally succeeding--to turn the bolt the wrong way, getting an already extremely tight bolt even tighter on. In my efforts to actually loosen it the correct way, I managed to shear off some of the metal on the bolt and scrape/bang up my hands pretty bad.

My friend came to pick me up for the craigslist thing, and when we returned from that I asked him if he would try his hand at loosening the bolt, he wanted me to try and start the bike, and at that point I realized that I didn't have my keys. We spent an hour or so looking for my keys at the house, then went back to the craigslist guy's house to look, then some more at the house. I eventually found my spare bike key, but we had to make a duplicate of the house key.

My friend decided this was the excuse he needed to finally buy the air compressor he wanted, so he did and he used a pneumatic impact to loosen the oil drain bolt on my bike, but it's dark, so I decided to leave the full oil change 'til tomorrow.

TL;DR: today kinda sucked and changing oil can be brutal.
Also, did put gas and a little oil in and try starting it up. It is turning over, but nothing else. Battery didn't drop too bad from trying to start it (still above 12v when I checked)
Tomorrow, I try again.

X10bws

01-25-2014, 11:18 PM

Rough day. A tip to loosen tight bolts in the future: use a pipe to extend the ratchets handle for leverage.

ImaginativeFig

01-26-2014, 12:50 AM

Yeah, but why use a pipe when you have an air compressor, apparently (not that I have either lying about, unless I wanted to steal some plumbing, but the roommates/landlord would probably be a bit pissy 'bout that)
I watched two Doctor Who Christmas specials back to back, so now I'm at least going to bed in a good mood.

alantf

01-26-2014, 05:40 AM

You said the battery was above 12v. A few weeks ago when I had problems starting, and ended up buying a new battery (which cured the problem), the old battery which gave the problems was showing 12.36v, and starting was a problem, so you may need to give it a charge, to help it. Overnight at 0.6A is the ideal charge, but certainly not above 2A for a couple of hours.

ImaginativeFig

01-26-2014, 10:57 PM

Water Warrior 2

01-27-2014, 12:42 AM

Every bike parts shop in town is closed on Sundays, and I dared not put the drain bolt that'd I'd so badly mangled back on, so without the ability to put oil in, troubleshooting waits another day.
I'm not a patient person *fidgetfidget*

Patients grasshopper. It will be worth the wait. When you get a new drain bolt/plug be sure to get a new crush washer too.

jonathan180iq

01-27-2014, 09:43 AM

It's the grasshopper's patient who needs patience? ;)

ImaginativeFig

01-27-2014, 08:09 PM

@___@ Action Sports is closed today too, and the Polaris place doesn't have Suzuki bits in stock and everything's probably gunna be closed tomorrow because Texans can't handle snow. *frantic tooth gnashing*

raul10141964

01-27-2014, 08:48 PM

state of emergency hear tomorrow -13F tonight

ImaginativeFig

01-27-2014, 09:37 PM

Yeah well "it might not get above freezing tomorrow" :P Oh noooooo! But Texas is about as well equipped to handle cold as Chicago is to handle heat (my room mate went on a tirade yesterday about redditors being all condescending about Texans freaking out about the cold. He brought up the fact that a "heat wave" of around 80 degrees caused a bunch of deaths in Chicago a few years back, whereas that's a cool day in summer here... that being said, the Oregonian inside of me laughs at school closures for a little bit of frost.)

I feel bad for y'all up there who have been in the negatives so much though, that's gotta be terrible. My part of Oregon never got that cold either, so I'd be a big baby up there too.

grasshopper

01-27-2014, 10:18 PM

Every bike parts shop in town is closed on Sundays, and I dared not put the drain bolt that'd I'd so badly mangled back on, so without the ability to put oil in, troubleshooting waits another day.
I'm not a patient person *fidgetfidget*

sometimes I have found the same size bolt at lowes or home depo. just a thought. (be sure to have the original bolt with you.)

blaine

01-27-2014, 10:36 PM

sometimes I have found the same size bolt at lowes or home depo. just a thought. (be sure to have the original bolt with you.)

That is true of some bolts,but not a drain plug.They have a special taper on the end & some of them have a small magnet installed in them.:) ;)

grasshopper

01-28-2014, 09:12 AM

That is true of some bolts,but not a drain plug.They have a special taper on the end & some of them have a small magnet installed in them.:) ;)

I was thinking of something temporary for iffy. I can relate to the eagerness to get the problem figured out.

jonathan180iq

01-28-2014, 09:20 AM

Iffy, can you get us a picture of badly the drain bolt is mangled? I've actually done the same thing on a buddy's Ford Focus. A pair of vice grips will usually grab enough of the head to seat the bolt until you can get a replacement. They don't have to be Herculean tight - just good and snug for now. I wouldn't leave an exposed hole in the bottom of the crankcase for too long - it'll start to dry out in there, or critters can get into it... Nothing worse than exploded field mouse lining the walls of the engine.

grasshopper

01-28-2014, 09:24 AM

Water Warrior 2

01-28-2014, 03:44 PM

Check the local auto parts store. Take the old one with you and specify a new Metric plug and crush washer.

ImaginativeFig

01-28-2014, 11:25 PM

Yeah I went to O'Reilly's, Napa, Autozone, and Sears, and called Advance on Sunday, they all said they had nothing that would work (except for the guy at Autozone who tried to convince me that I could use a similar bolt with a different pitch, it'd be fine, I'd just have to use a bit of force and it would make new threads :wtf: )
I ordered the part at ActionSports today, but they said it would take 5 biz days for it to show up (so... next Wednesday! That sucks!)
Tomorrow I'm gunna check out Fastenal and Ace Bolt and Screw, since they're bolt specialists...

grasshopper

01-28-2014, 11:39 PM

sorry your having such a hard time finding a bolt. I found good help at the lowes for a bolt ,temporary fix. you know just to test things out while you wait for your ordered bolt to come in. I have used them on some of my dirt bikes to get by until my other bolt came in the mail. I would not try to force a bolt in there. good luck.

Water Warrior 2

01-29-2014, 01:33 AM

except for the guy at Autozone who tried to convince me that I could use a similar bolt with a different pitch, it'd be fine, I'd just have to use a bit of force and it would make new threads :wtf: ).

NEVER NEVER NEVER. A different pitch will probably work once if the bolt doesn't chew all the threads out. The next oil change will likely be the end of the threads and you are royally hooped. The different pitch to the thread is a Japanese Standard and should not be mucked with. Somebody needs a smack. >:(

ImaginativeFig

01-29-2014, 02:07 AM

NEVER NEVER NEVER. A different pitch will probably work once if the bolt doesn't chew all the threads out. The next oil change will likely be the end of the threads and you are royally hooped. The different pitch to the thread is a Japanese Standard and should not be mucked with. Somebody needs a smack. >:(
Riiiiight? He just lost a lot of credibility... interesting guy, fun to talk to, I just wouldn't let him touch my bike...

I found good help at the lowes for a bolt ,temporary fix. you know just to test things out while you wait for your ordered bolt to come in.
Thing about temporary bolts is that swapping them out for the real deal would essentially require another oil change, right? I mean, it's a drain bolt, once you take it out, oil starts draining, yeah?

ImaginativeFig

01-29-2014, 02:14 AM

Here's a little video I shot for you guys on Sunday of Coot and his oil. I just finished editing it to my satisfaction, so here you go http://youtu.be/enkqce4BZ1s

grasshopper

01-29-2014, 07:13 AM

yeah your right about the oil change. unless you do what I have done and do a fast bolt swap. may only lose a cup or less of oil at the most, (engine cold) and you can just top that off. Nice video by the way. the bolt didn't look to bad from what I could see. if the threads are still good I would just use it. looks like you could still get a box-end wrench on it. I like the colored socket set. there is nothing like having the right tools for the job.

blaine

01-29-2014, 09:14 AM

I agree the bolt don't look to bad.I'd reuse it for now. ;) :)

Goose51683

01-29-2014, 11:07 AM

Little tip I've used for other "quick" bolt swaps. Stick a vacuum hose on the hole you add oil to (sorry brain dead today, can't think of the correct word) keep the vacuum running, it should pull enough vacuum on your engine to prevent you from losing to much oil when you swap out the drain bolt. You can even stick a piece of cloth over the hose or hole to prevent any kind of debris from possibly falling in if you want that extra sense of safety.

We use a similar approach during oil changes on our massive gearboxes in wind turbines.

Water Warrior 2

01-29-2014, 03:00 PM

Here's a little video I shot for you guys on Sunday of Coot and his oil. I just finished editing it to my satisfaction, so here you go http://youtu.be/enkqce4BZ1s

Iffy, did I understand the vid correctly??? You put in 2 bottles of oil and the next day that little dribble came out into the container??

ImaginativeFig

01-29-2014, 08:59 PM

I agree the bolt don't look to bad.I'd reuse it for now. ;) :)

It's hard to see in the video, but all 6 corners are rounded at the top. I'm getting mighty tempted to try though anyway. I don't want to have to wait a week. If I have to wait 'til next Wednesday, that will give me 2 days (with school and work taking up most of the daylight) to figure out what's wrong with him before I need 'im to get me out to my weekend job.

Iffy, did I understand the vid correctly??? You put in 2 bottles of oil and the next day that little dribble came out into the container??

Nonono, I put the difference between those two bottles (one was the one I'd taken from and the other was unopened) so around.... 100mL?

ImaginativeFig

01-30-2014, 01:14 AM

Today I went to Fastenal and they didn't have anything of the right pitch and diameter on hand. He did give me the specs though, so I'll post 'em here for future reference
The (OEM) oil drain plug on a Suzuki GZ250 is a stainless steel M (or maybe N, but m for metric makes sense) 14 (mm diameter?), 1.25 pitch, 12mm long, 17mm hex flange head bolt

Goose51683

01-30-2014, 08:39 AM

I'm absolutely floored that you can find a bolt that size for a temporary replacement. You might try calling some different Fastenals around the area, I know around here they all carry different stock.

ImaginativeFig

01-30-2014, 10:51 AM

Most bolts with that big of diameter don't have such fine thread, apparently.
The Fastenal guy said that if he ordered it it would be coming from Indiana (I think. Your neck of the woods, eh?), so it might arrive by Monday, which would beat Action Sports, but it wouldn't be *the* right bolt. I guess I could try the Bryan location, but the guy I was talking to at Fastenal last night wasn't just brushing me off, I think he actually looked everywhere near by.
Do keep in mind that I'm in a small city/big town, there aren't a ton of any kind of locations around me, plus I'm in Texas, so there are big gaps between cities and towns, plus I don't have a vehicle other than my bike, so getting to those far away towns ain't easy.
One of my friends is going to either Houston or Dallas (can't remember which) this weekend, I might be able to send her somewhere if I can call them and determine that they have it in stock...
But I'm thinking I might just give up and stick the old bolt back in there tonight so I can get back to troubleshooting

raul10141964

01-30-2014, 10:54 AM

an autoparts store will have it is a commune sise fore oil drain plug on a Japanese care ore you can tray a new gasquet

Goose51683

01-30-2014, 12:54 PM

I'd drive it down for you but the Indiana to Texas trip isn't exactly a great one.

Water Warrior 2

01-30-2014, 01:17 PM

Take a look on Ebay. You never know till you look.

ImaginativeFig

01-30-2014, 06:49 PM

an autoparts store will have it is a commune sise fore oil drain plug on a Japanese care ore you can tray a new gasquet
Like I said, I tried every autoparts store in town. What good would a new gasket do? The head of the bolt is mangled.

JohnC

01-30-2014, 08:30 PM

Take the old one out, grind off the damaged flats and have someone weld a nut on it.

ImaginativeFig

01-31-2014, 02:15 AM

Apparently it's the same size as an 2009-2012 F350/450/550 Super Duty oil drain plug bolt. (Some sources are saying F250 as well, but whatever, just make sure you get the result of a M14 -1.25 not M14 1.5)
Also 1984-1991 Jeep Cherokee (4WD or 2WD), 1986-91 Jeep Comanche, and some other vehicles mentioned on the fitment tab
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Needa-Parts-Engine-Oil-Drain-Plug/2009-Ford-F450-Super-Duty-P-U-4WD/_/N-jvcjpZ8gd4w?itemIdentifier=257165_339486_0_
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/DAG0/090177/02330.oap?year=2009&make=Ford&model=F-550%2BSuper%2BDuty&vi=1445637&ck=Search_oil+drain+plug_1445637_710&showStores=true#at
I'm a bit ticked, apparently it's stocked at my local Autozone, so I could have gotten one of these when I was there last Sunday. Maybe I'll see if O'Reilly's can get it for me by the time I could get there, since I'm not mad at them for giving me shitty advice and they actually didn't have the part in stock (they'd have to get it from Houston)
Oh well, I'll go get one tomorrow and at least be able to do stuff this weekend.

Water Warrior 2

01-31-2014, 02:25 AM

ImaginativeFig

01-31-2014, 07:44 PM

I GOT A BOLT!!! *dies of happiness...
but then comes back 'cause shit ain't done*
I put it on 'bout a half to 3/4 turn past finger tight, and dumped some oil in there. I might have filled it past the F- line. It looked like it was below and I was like "Oh, I should put some more in--wait no! Engine's cold, oil will expand when it's hot, so I'm good" but then I guess some more of it settled because it was a bit over the line next I looked.

Anyway, problem's not solved, just now troubleshootable.
Here's a new vid with the noise it makes when I try to start
http://youtu.be/xqCiA8RixFc

blaine

01-31-2014, 08:22 PM

These bikes are very "cold blooded" & will have a difficult time starting if choke is not operating. Sounds like it's turning over fine. ;) :)

grasshopper

01-31-2014, 08:54 PM

definitely use the choke. you may also want to check if it is getting spark at the spark plug.

blaine

01-31-2014, 10:09 PM

definitely use the choke. you may also want to check if it is getting spark at the spark plug.
Yea she mentioned in her video that the choke was not working properly. ;) :)

ImaginativeFig

01-31-2014, 10:32 PM

Like I said in the vid, I can't get the choke to open all the way, seems like more of a problem in the switch than further down the line, anyone messed with that stuff before?

I just went out and tested the spark plug (argh! I wound up using my deep 18mm socket, which was still too short to be able fit my roommate's wrachet in there, so I had to ask my neighbors for an extender, which was so long I had to take my gas tank off :doh:) it's giving a nice bluey/purple spark.

Tomorrow I'll fiddle around with the choke and see what gives (or rather, why it doesn't)

✓ Fresh gas
✓ New and proper amount of oil
✓ turning over (sounds like)
✓ spark plug sparks

alantf

02-01-2014, 05:49 AM

Sounds like you need to disconnect the choke cable at the carb end, so you can see what's happening at that end of the cable, when you operate the lever. Perhaps it's frayed, or just needs lubricating, or needs a new cable.

ImaginativeFig

02-01-2014, 02:56 PM

Is choke called something else in the service manual? I ctrl+F'ed "choke" to no avail, skimming through stuff now, but...

ImaginativeFig

02-01-2014, 03:37 PM

Ah, it appears to be the "starter plunger"
Ok, I lefty loosyed the nut thingy that's attached to the end of the starter plunger/choke cable on the side of the carb, it made some disconcerting clicking noises as I did so and when I opened it, the nasty looking spring was all twisted up from my unscrewing, but showed no sign of coming out. I haven't been able to find a description of how to disconnect this, which makes me think it should be a no-brainer, but I'm thinking I messed it up some how?

ImaginativeFig

02-01-2014, 03:56 PM

Here's another vid, so you can see what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OI6W-wYtMA&feature=youtu.be

blaine

02-01-2014, 04:21 PM

Yep. there ia a plunger in front of the spring that is seized in the opening.Spray some penetrating fluid (WD-40) in the hole & the plunger will some out.Then you will see how it's supposed to operate.(choke-starter plunger)
;) :)

JohnC

02-01-2014, 05:00 PM

Use carb cleaner.

Water Warrior 2

02-01-2014, 06:18 PM

While you have the cable disconnected from the carb you might as well hold it upright a drip a little light oil into the cable housing to lube it for smoother operation. Sewing machine oil, 3 in 1 or Dextron auto trans oil.
Dextron is my choice as it is more of a cleaner and will not make plastic or inner cable sleeves swell up and bind.

ImaginativeFig

02-02-2014, 12:42 PM

I have WD-40, Seafaom, motoroil, the gas in my tank, and various metal polishes (liquid and cream brasso, puma, neverdull wads) as well as typical household cleaners (windex, bleach... that sort of thing) I can buy other stuff, but I'm low on funds and don't want to buy things unless I really need them, so if there's something that would help now that I really should be using in my general bike maintenance anyway, then I'll get it, but I don't want to buy something just to fix an acute problem if something I have on hand would work alright.

edit: for the record, this was not in response to any single suggestion, just saying to keep it in mind. You guys keep saying to use things that I don't have...
Also, the carb sat in chem dip for a few hours (or whatever the recommended duration was) back in late November/early December, so I kinda assume/hope that did something as far as carb cleaning goes...

ImaginativeFig

02-02-2014, 01:25 PM

blaine

02-02-2014, 01:58 PM

I WD-40 the crap outta the plunger hole in the carb, then pushed the screw up and used a screw driver to turn the plunger around in there a bit, after a turn or two, it finally came loose.
This video is kinda crap, but you can at least kind of see the plunger and how un-smoothly the choke cable is operating right now.
http://youtu.be/6XMsJQDRCno
You may be able to get it cleaned up to work properly.Also you need to disassemble the cable at the upper end & get some lube to flow down the cable.If this doesn't free things up you may need to replace the cable.But The plunger it's self may be the whole cause of the malfunction.Once clean & lubed it may work fine. ;) :)

ImaginativeFig

02-02-2014, 04:32 PM

Also you need to disassemble the cable at the upper end & get some lube to flow down the cable
How/where do you disassemble at the top and what would you use to lubricate?

I reassembled everything. It appeared that someone had at one point switched the overflow and air vent hoses. One's narrower, the other's wide, the narrow one had been stretched on to cover the higher outlet (the air vent), and the big one had been on the lower one (the overflow drain)... I switched them because it seemed like the small one fit better on the overflow drain than the air vent, is that right?
The choke's still difficult to open, but it is openable, but this still doesn't make my bike go.
What do I need to troubleshoot if the battery's good and it's turning over, but not starting?

blaine

02-02-2014, 06:00 PM

How/where do you disassemble at the top and what would you use to lubricate?

I reassembled everything. It appeared that someone had at one point switched the overflow and air vent hoses. One's narrower, the other's wide, the narrow one had been stretched on to cover the higher outlet (the air vent), and the big one had been on the lower one (the overflow drain)... I switched them because it seemed like the small one fit better on the overflow drain than the air vent, is that right?
The choke's still difficult to open, but it is openable, but this still doesn't make my bike go.
What do I need to troubleshoot if the battery's good and it's turning over, but not starting?
There are two screws that hold the housing together on the bars.When you loosen then you will be able to see the choke cable.There are specific lubes for cables or you can use any light oil.I like to use chain lube as it will flow down the cable & than "jell" to stay in place.Your hose placement sounds right.I can't check for you as I no longer have my G.Z. I would open the drain on the side of the float bowel (on bottom of carb) & be sure you have fuel & go from there.

;) :)

ImaginativeFig

02-02-2014, 06:07 PM

I think I found some of my missing oil. I was reading various trouble shooting guides and one said to check out the air intake system, so took out my air filter and felt around inside the airbox for any foreign items and found black gold (ok, it was brown & translucent, but whatever! The floor of the airbox was coated in oil, and the drain hose was probably just about full of it. Shoo, there was almost as much oil in my airbox as there was in the oil pan (but that's partially because there was so friggin little in the oil pan)... that's probably a slight exaggeration, but it was still a mildly alarming amount.

blaine

02-02-2014, 08:16 PM

ImaginativeFig

02-02-2014, 11:51 PM

Yeah, I did drain it, hence why I knew the drain tube was filled with oil. Wouldn't really describe it as "a little oil", but maybe it had built up over a long time, since I'd never done anything with the airbox before and I have no idea what POs have done

5th_bike

02-04-2014, 10:30 PM

...what would you use to lubricate?

The manual says to use motor oil. I put some in the bottle cap and use a match, dip it in the oil and drip it on the inner cable. It will slide down by itself. You can also do that with the throttle cables.

ImaginativeFig

02-06-2014, 12:42 PM

I'm really not that worried about my choke cable right now. It's moving all they way, just with some difficulty, but that's no different from how it's been the whole time I've owned it. I want to get my bike up and running. What's the next step?
Various things I'm reading/being told tell me that I should take my carb apart and clean shit. Which some of you seem to advise against (In this thread entitled 'request: How to clean the Carb' posted by itamarmo in 2008 (http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/showthread.php?t=644) ), but it's sat in Chem Dip and still there's visible gunk places (such as the starter plunger hole), so it's not hard to imagine that the jets are clogged or the float's gummed up or something (I've been watching carb videos--I only half know what I'm talking about here).
What else could cause turn over but no start? (Checked spark, checked battery, new gas, new oil)

jonathan180iq

02-06-2014, 01:17 PM

If there is visible anything in the carb, then it has to be cleaned. You need almost a surgical cleanliness in there, at least to the eyes, to have a properly functioning bike.

The only advise against diving into a carb disassembly is for those who have no idea what they are doing and start to change 13 different variables without making sure whatever was most recently cleaned is put back in the position it was in before removal.

For example, a pinched gasket or seal somewhere and POOF! Just like that all of your work was for nothing before there's not an air leak and even a clean carb won't solve a mixture problem. Or people go in there and turn screws they don't need to be turning, in 100 different directions, or they can't remember what they did or didn't do. Trying to help those situation from over the internet is basically impossible.

If you're thorough and do things in a procedural manner, then don't hesitate to clean the carb the way it needs to be cleaned. A couple cans of spray cleaner and compressed air will go a long way. Also, don't use brass bristles. If you want to use a brush, nothing more stiff than a toothbrush or Q-tip.

EDIT: Sitting in chem dip is essentially leaving a pot of baked on lasagna in the sink to soak overnight. It'll loosen stuff up, but not do any real "cleaning" on it's own.

ImaginativeFig

02-06-2014, 01:45 PM

That makes sense, but now I'm imagining that my carb is filled with lasagna...

And a gunky carb could make it not start right? I don't want to be chasing irrelevant ghosts.

Any recommended carb cleaning tutorials? (edit: ok, reading the one in the service manual, so I guess I just want to know if y'all have any tips aside from that)

Also, I coulda sworn I saw someone mention a way to drain the carb somewhere. Last time I took it off, it randomly spat gas at me a few times. I don't really want to become highly flammable.

blaine

02-06-2014, 03:13 PM

Yes....was me.There is a drain on the bottom side of the float bowel. ;) :)

jonathan180iq

02-06-2014, 04:00 PM

Yes....was me.There is a drain on the bottom side of the float bowel. ;) :)

Yup. Just a screw and the bowl will drain. You can catch this seeping jaundiced water or you can let it spill all over your garage floor for huffing, which makes for a happier work environment, albeit a bit "fuzzy".

A couple of things. When you do the drain and the removal of the carb, make sure the petcock is not set to PRI (which it never should be anyway, unless you're...)

About to refill the petcock that you just drained. PRI is motorcycle code for "Niagra Falls" and it will free pour all of your gas either into your carb/airbox/engine case or, again, all over your garage floor. You will, however, be using PRI when you reinstall your freshly cleaned carb.

And yes, a gunky carb will absolutely cause the bike to turn over but not to start. It's the main culprit of no start issues on these bikes, after the bad battery sceanrio that you've probably read so much about.

Carbs are very simple. There is a bowl at the bottom (the thing you're about to drain) which is the reservoir that the bike will draw from. Inside the the bowl is a float, which is mechanical device that won't allow the carb to keep too much or too little fuel in the bowl. The bowl is filled via vacuum caused by the running engine, sucking fuel from the tank and petcock down into the bowl. From the bowl, fuel is drawn through these little itty bitty passages and through things called slides and jets. Those passages are like arteries. If they are clogged or gummed up in some way, you're looking at the equivalent of a bike heart attack, and that fucker won't come back alive until you've performed the gearhead version of putting in a stint [blowing all that crud out of the passages so blood (fuel) can flow in and out of the heart again.]

Once the stint is put in (passage ways cleaned up), you have to recharge the heart by shocking it with some defibrillators (PRI) from the petcock. This refills the bowl and the engine vacuum should get everything purring again like Garfield eating his favorite dish.

Make sure you don't reverse the vacuum lines under the tank. (There are only two. Lable them)

And be careful not to pink or misalign any of the gaskets and seals that you come across as you open things up.

~~~~~~

I have lots more advice but I tend to over speak anyway.

Have properly sized screw drivers. Nothing sucks worse than stripped carb screws halfway through the job.

You'll also want some vice grips, for that moment who you know you're about to strip one and you need to stop immediately and use a real tool.

Go ahead and buy a repalcement carb gasket set off Ebay. They're like $5.

Once you remove the bowl from the carb, you'll see the main jet. If there is any varnish at all, the bike won't run. Spend most of your first can of carb spray in this area... and keep it out of your eyes...

:)

JohnC

02-06-2014, 04:03 PM

Any recommended carb cleaning tutorials? (edit: ok, reading the one in the service manual, so I guess I just want to know if y'all have any tips aside from that)

Here's a good tutorial. (http://nighthawk-forums.com/*-engine-fuel-cooling-exhaust-*/550650-carb-cleaning-by-rockinrandy/) It's written for Keihin carbs, but Mikunis aren't that much different.

Here's another one on general cleaning techniques. (http://nighthawk-forums.com/*-general-maintenance-*/the-pine-sol-degreaser-topic-20514/)

If you have access to an ultrasonic cleaner, they're good for getting deposits out of tiny passages.

Water Warrior 2

02-06-2014, 09:02 PM

Jonathan, very well written and informative. The added humor is a bonus and sticks in the memory cells.

ImaginativeFig

02-06-2014, 09:44 PM

Make sure you don't reverse the vacuum lines under the tank. (There are only two. Lable them)

And be careful not to pink or misalign any of the gaskets and seals that you come across as you open things up.
Under the tank? Are you talking about those two that hang free (whatsit, overflow and air or something?) And what's pinking a gasket? Sounds weird.

Have properly sized screw drivers. Nothing sucks worse than stripped carb screws halfway through the job.

You'll also want some vice grips, for that moment who you know you're about to strip one and you need to stop immediately and use a real tool.
blah

Ah! That was another thing: I considered looking into the bowl when I had the carb off so I could wrestle with the starter plunger (which removing the carb was completely unnecessary for, but I only know that through the magic of hindsight), but all of the screws seemed like they wanted to strip more than a liquored up fratboy. I had a driver head that was fitting pretty snuggly, but soon as I tried to turn it I could feel the screw giving. After that nightmare with the drain plug, I really don't want to mess up anymore threaded stuff's heads. I don't suppose anyone already knows the specs on those screws so I can start a preemptive replacement search?

Carb cleaning shopping list:

carb cleaner spray
compressed air
gasket kit
replacement screws?

Is that right?

blaine

02-06-2014, 10:33 PM

I'm pretty sure he meant "pinch" the gaskets.Your list is right on.Sometimes tapping the driver with a hammer when it in the screw head will help them loosen. ;) :)

JohnC

02-06-2014, 11:36 PM

ImaginativeFig

02-07-2014, 01:02 AM

You need a #2 JIS driver. Phillips drivers do not fit and will destroy the heads of the screws. Another interesting thread (If I do say so myself...) ;) (http://nighthawk-forums.com/tools-and-equipment/those-pesky-phillips-head-screws)
Ugh, seriously? That's butts. Ok. Add that to the shopping list. Are there other sizes of JIS drivers I may need for the bike?
I can't see the thread, "The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.
Please login below or register an account with Nighthawk-Forums.com - Your Honda Nighthawk Motorcycle Forum!"

Edit: for the gasket set am I looking for just the o-rings or the bowl gasket too?

Water Warrior 2

02-07-2014, 04:49 AM

You can modify a regular screwdriver to fit the bike parts. Thanks to Alantf we learned that we can just grind or file down the tip of a screwdriver to shorten the tip a wee bit. A file will do the job but takes a while. I filed one driver down to fit and then wrapped some tape around the shaft to identify it in the tool drawer. There are a couple JIS screwdriver sets available in the U.S. but they are pricey and not needed if you just do a mod on regular stuff.

Another tool that is a JIS tool is an impact driver that many places sell. I used to use it for tightening screws when regular screwdrivers failed to work well. Mine came with 4 tips, 2 flat and 2 Philips. Due to it's size and weight it can be clumsy but is nevertheless effective.

jonathan180iq

02-07-2014, 09:14 AM

http://www.micromark.com/RS/SR/Product/14565_R.jpg

If you can't find a good file or anything better for the carb screws, do what I did. You only use the vice grips for the initial breaking free of the screw head. Once they've released their supernatural bond to the carb, any old screw driver can remove them and reinstall them.

blaine

02-07-2014, 09:26 AM

Edit: for the gasket set am I looking for just the o-rings or the bowl gasket too?
I would replace the bowl gasket too,just to be safe. ;) :)

Goose51683

02-07-2014, 10:16 AM

I'm with Jonathan, Vice grips were my best friend whenever I had to break those carb screws loose. Especially considering I didn't realize you needed a special screwdriver until after they were already stripped out.

JohnC

02-07-2014, 06:22 PM

You can modify a regular screwdriver to fit the bike parts. ... we can just grind or file down the tip of a screwdriver to shorten the tip a wee bit.

The problem isn't the length, it is the profile of the "blades". Shorter blades still have the wrong profile.

I guess you need to join the Honda forum to see it, but, since I wrote it, I don't see why I can't reproduce it here:

Those pesky Phillips head screws

With great regularity, someone makes a post cursing those pesky Phillips head screws, or suggesting using an impact tool to disassemble carburetors, or recommending replacing all the carb screws with 10 or 12 dollars worth of stainless steel socket head screws.

Being a mechanic who takes pride in his work, I cringe everytime I see this. Why?

There are no Phillips head screws on a Honda [sic] motorcycle.

Hondas, and most other Japanese bikes use a standard called JIS. It looks like Phillips, but it isn't. A Phillips driver does not fit the screw properly, is prone to camming out, and is certain to bugger the heads of all but the most loosely installed screws. In fact, Phillips screws and drivers are designed to cam out to prevent overtorquing the fastener.

http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/attachments/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/73294d1287169479-stuck-aperture-ring-50-1-7-jis-sd-jpg

JIS screws can often be identified by a small dot or dimple in one of the quadrants of the head.

http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F5K/IE3C/FQSWZZ4L/F5KIE3CFQSWZZ4L.MEDIUM.jpg

JIS drivers can be obtained through McMaster Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/#jis-%28japanese-industrial-standard%29-screwdrivers/=ggp88g) or you can get drivers or 1/4" hex tips for your favorite magnetic screw driver from RJR Cool Tools (http://www.rjrcooltools.com/jis.cfm). A #2 will cover most of the critical stuff; carb tops and bowls and hydraulic reservoir covers. I think there may be some #3 screws on some of the carb racks.

So, bugger your screws up then spend money on an impact tool and a new set of screws, or buy the right tool and use it for a lifetime.

:soap:

(Vice grips are for plumbers! ;) )

Water Warrior 2

02-08-2014, 02:34 AM

Thank you. More stuff for toolbox junkies.

ImaginativeFig

02-12-2014, 12:02 AM

So just for updating's sake: I've started my weekend job now, so I've lost that work time and now just have evenings after school/weekjob/other obligations and happenings to fiddle with Coot. Fortunately, opening weekend happened to coincide with my birthday to bring together monies and monies, so I was able to pay for my bike insurance as well as order a JIS #2 offa Amazon--which should arrive tomorrow, allowing the next round of tinkering to commence. I also got a Kroger (which is a grocery store) giftcard, which will help ease the decision between bike stuff and food :P

grasshopper

02-12-2014, 12:19 AM

well, happy birthday! foods gooood. lol. I hope the carb work your going to do will be the cure for cooter's illness. looks like you have a lot on your plate. remember, you cannot manage time, you can only manage events in time. Good luck!:tup:

Goose51683

02-12-2014, 08:50 AM

At least on the bright side once you get the cooter going you will know the ins and out of her about as well as anyone.

ImaginativeFig

02-13-2014, 08:32 PM

I got the stupid JIS screwdriver, but it's not faring any better than the phillips! I tried to vicegrip one of the screws open, but chickened out after it just marked up the screw without any budging. All I seem to be good at doing is messing up fasteners :doh:
A friend's gunna come over and see what he can do... though I'm thinking of calling up the friend with the impact...

grasshopper

02-13-2014, 10:53 PM

you are on the verge of being a gz250 mechanic.:cheers:

Water Warrior 2

02-14-2014, 12:21 AM

When all the skinned knuckles and swearing subsides you will know a sense of accomplishment. Sometimes it just takes longer so hang in there. Your 1st ride with a good performing Cooter will put a smile in your heart.

ImaginativeFig

02-14-2014, 12:35 AM

Yeah well, right now I'm so depressed I might just sit around and do homework. That's a sure sign of broken spirit right there.
What I need to do is stop getting my hopes up so high. Everytime I find a new thing wrong I get all excited, "This has gotta be it! I'll fix this and then I'll have wheels again!"
Anyway. we took the carb apart, took jets out, sprayed carb cleaner in. My friend who's taken his carbs apart just kinda was doing stuff while I was distracted with cleaning gunk off of various pieces, so I can't attest to everything he did. Apparently all of that was to no avail though, since there was no change in the starting noises.
I did find an oil leak though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlW9chMUAgM&feature=youtu.be
edit: Looking through parts diagrams, it looks like it's leaking between the two parts of the head assembly? Is there some sort of sealant supposed to be between there?

ImaginativeFig

02-14-2014, 12:55 AM

Ah.. just kidding about homework though. Fat chance of me doing that, haha! Just ate me a bowl of comfort food, aka sugar (dole frozen tropical fruit, mixed with dark chocolate chips and almonds, heated in the microwave until piping hot, then smothered in whipped cream. Mmm-mmm!)
Off to bed. Mentally. emotionally, and physically tired. Yesterday I decided to attempt to cut some rather hard oak with a rather blunt ax. Today many muscles I didn't know I had are rather frequently informing me of what a bad idea that was.

So what's left? Compression, timing, mysterious oil leaks?

jonathan180iq

02-14-2014, 01:10 PM

Your friend who kinda/sorta knew what he was doing... did you guys put the petcock on PRI for a minutes or two to refill the float bowl and then try cranking or did you try cranking while the petcock was still on RUN? If the latter, then it would have taken forever for the bike to sip enough fuel into the bowl to start to run and then again to try and crank after sitting for so long.

A poor man's compression test is to place a dollar bill over the exhaust outlet. While cranking, it should only be blown away from the muffler... Also, you can try to turn the compression stroke by hand. If you can, there isn't enough resistance. (This will just give you an idea if you need to invest in a compression test kit.)

Let's check for spark. Have you done that?
Remove the spark plug
Attack plug wire
Ground against motor or frame
Try and start bike
Watch for arcing at plug gap

You only need three things to make it go boom; fire, air, and fuel.

raul10141964

02-14-2014, 01:39 PM

to check for compression
remove the spark plug, put your finger on the hole an crank.
if you can stop the air from com out the compression is to low, check the valve gap

ImaginativeFig

02-14-2014, 02:10 PM

I've checked for spark (paaaages ago)

We started cranking in the run, then remembered about priming, so let it prime a bit. I forgot to close the bowl drain screw at first, so we got a nice puddle of confirmation that gas did in fact make into the bowl. Then switched to res to make sure that it wasn't just the low(ered) fuel level.

One of my friends has a gauge on a tube, according to youtube videos, you stick that with an adaptor in the sparkplug hole and turn over the bike 'til the gauge stops going up and that's your compression.

I'm still concerned about the oil leaking from between the parts of the head assembly, anyone know what's supposed to be stopping that from happening? Doesn't look like there's a gasket there in the parts diagram (it's a big irregular joining spot, so it wouldn't really make sense anyway). Is it just not tightened down enough?

Recap of what's been done:
✓ Battery tested and good
✓ Fresh gas
✓ New and proper amount of oil
✓ turning over (sounds like)
✓ spark plug sparks
✓ carb cleaned
? doesn't start when starter fluid (approximately) is sprayed in the air intake when cranking
? oil is coming from between cylinder head assembly pieces

jonathan180iq

02-14-2014, 03:34 PM

....If it doesn't start, or at least go BANG!!! with starter fluid then you are right is assessing the compression next.

Does your buddy know anything about valve timing? If that's off, compression will be low, as either the intake or exhaust stroke will be open before it should be and not allow for compression to build up to give a nice place for the bang to happen.

Raul's other cheap method for compression testing it pretty sound. But if your friend has a compression test kit, then go ahead and see what's going on.

I can't see most photos on the forum because anything that's photobucket or similar is blocked by my work server. Have you shown us where specifically the oil is seeping out from?

I apologize for 100 questions or even giving advice that's been given before or for things that were already checked. Keeping up with your ongoing trials and tribulations is like #45 of my important things to do before 9:00am every day ;)

raul10141964

02-14-2014, 07:33 PM

the oil on the fins is not important come from the valve cover and is almost normal on the GZ.

Check compression, if is low check valves.
if the valves are to tight the compression is low and do not start

JohnC

02-14-2014, 11:01 PM

? doesn't start when starter fluid (approximately) is sprayed in the air intake when cranking

What do you mean by "approximately"? Forget everything else. This tells me you don't have spark, or it's way too weak, or it's occurring at the wrong point in the cycle. Even if the compression is bad, starting fluid should make some noise.

Test compression by putting you finger over the plug hole and cranking. It should blow your finger of the hole.

? oil is coming from between cylinder head assembly pieces
Focus!!!

grasshopper

02-15-2014, 01:20 AM

[QUOTE=ImaginativeFig;77694] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlW9chMUAgM&feature=youtu.be

in this video I was confused :hmm: when you mentioned carb cleaner /starting fluid. just a note carb cleaner does not work as starting fluid.

Water Warrior 2

02-15-2014, 08:26 PM

A wee bit of white gas for a Coleman stove will work as starting fluid. Just a few drops should work.

JohnC

02-16-2014, 09:20 PM

A wee bit of white gas for a Coleman stove will work as starting fluid. Just a few drops should work.

Ohh! I had to run a car on that stuff once. I think it's about 65 octane! Anything over about 1/4 throttle and it sounded like someone had thrown a handful of ball bearings into the engine!

Water Warrior 2

02-16-2014, 10:28 PM

Ohh! I had to run a car on that stuff once. I think it's about 65 octane! Anything over about 1/4 throttle and it sounded like someone had thrown a handful of ball bearings into the engine!

I once used it to prime a carb in a car. Used too much and it lite off at full throttle until it ran out of fuel. I still wonder why the bloody thing didn't turn into a grenade.

ImaginativeFig

02-18-2014, 02:17 PM

I apologize for 100 questions or even giving advice that's been given before or for things that were already checked. Keeping up with your ongoing trials and tribulations is like #45 of my important things to do before 9:00am every day ;)
I'm honored to be so high on the list. I'm having trouble keeping track of what's been done as well, and I'm the one who's done most of it.

Water Warrior 2

02-18-2014, 04:30 PM

Make up a To Do List. Keep a record of everything you do. Our bikes have been documented from their first day and it is a tremendous advantage when needing some trivial info that has been forgotten.
Having a record of when, where, why and what things were done and the mileage plus costs incurred are a big help.

ImaginativeFig

02-18-2014, 09:26 PM

Tested compression (local bike shop let us borrow the kit with a $100 deposit), obviously on a cold engine. Got around 50psi. Opened up valve cover to look at them and they aren't moving, least not that I can notice, as we turn the crankshaft (following procedure in the "Valve Clearance" instructions on pg 2-5 of the service manual. Further inspection/experimentation is ongoing

ImaginativeFig

02-18-2014, 10:38 PM

Oohooohoohoohoo. Found the problem, it's a doozy. Will post pics.

5th_bike

02-18-2014, 10:54 PM

Let's hope so - fingers crossed...

ImaginativeFig

02-19-2014, 12:50 AM

Haha, yeah, the hope here is that this is the only problem, because it definitely is A problem May I present, my broken camshaft:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1904130_10152021567942857_91442891_n.jpg
I'm relieved to find a definite problem, not nearly so happy at the cost of replacement, particularly as I eye the damage to the head assembly...
So you know anyone trying to get rid of some of these parts?

blaine

02-19-2014, 12:54 AM

Ouch.That's what I was afraid of,internal damage. :( You best bet may be a complete head/engine on E-Bay.

ImaginativeFig

02-19-2014, 01:08 AM

From parts diagrams, it looks like there's only supposed to be a C ring in the bottom half of the assembly, but when I took mine apart I thought that it was a washer that had split in two, because there's something that looks an awful lot like another C ring in the top half.
Any of you remember messing around in there and seeing a piece in the top half, pretty much in the part where I'm zoomed in on in the pic labeled "damage to top of head assembly"?

mainlinecoffee

02-19-2014, 02:31 AM

Just a thought you may get away with just the camshaft if the head and valves aren't bent,also mark the cam chain teeth and head at top dead center to avoid issues down the road,look at the bright side it wasn't the crankshaft.

Water Warrior 2

02-19-2014, 02:39 AM

Oh my, that is bad news. As suggested a complete engine on ebay may be a good alternative compared to throwing money at this one. Might also be cheaper in the long run too. You can always sell any left over un-needed parts to recoup a bit of the cost.

ImaginativeFig

02-19-2014, 09:18 AM

A 1983 Suzuki GN250 cylinder head will work on my '03 GZ or no?
I've seen you guys talk about cross compatibility between those two engines, but they are showing up as different parts numbers...

grasshopper

02-19-2014, 10:08 AM

I just seen a camshaft on ebay for 18.99 and free shipping.2002 SUZUKI GZ250 CAMSHAFT/SPROCKET/OEM (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-SUZUKI-GZ250-CAMSHAFT-SPROCKET-OEM-/251397006827?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a886de5eb&vxp=mtr) .
you want to check it out.

raul10141964

02-19-2014, 11:05 AM

the different is the shape of the combustion chamber and the connection for a mechanical tachometer

A gn250 motor will fit

ImaginativeFig

02-19-2014, 03:37 PM

The GN250 head is only $75 with free shipping and it has a cam shaft and everything, so I'm going for it. Expected arrival is Monday.

ImaginativeFig

02-19-2014, 09:35 PM

blaine

02-19-2014, 09:58 PM

When I went to return the compression test kit to the bike shop, I showed them the camshaft, they said it looked it was due to low oil and that the cylinder/piston were probably toast too, so I lifted the rest of the cylinder head up to have a look and everything looked unmarred and generally kosher in there, so it's probably alright (right???)

Tried to fiddle with the valves to determine their salvageability... how easily are they supposed to move? Mine didn't move at all with me just pushing with my fingers. I guess maybe they got dried up and non-move-y and provided the resistance to snap the camshaft?

The valves take a fair bit of pressure to move them.Way more than you can exert with your hand.That was my thoughts all along....damage from low oil.I would be worried about the bearing being ruined in the bottom end (crankshaft) If it were me I would find a complete engine so your not throwing good money after bad. ;) :)

ImaginativeFig

02-19-2014, 11:12 PM

Can I check that bearing in some relatively easy way? (Haha, I'm suspecting 'no!')
I already paid for the head, but it hasn't shipped yet, so I think I can still cancel.
Not seeing any particularly appealing prices for full engines--still better prices than buying a new cylinder head from the bike shop, but still $75 on a part that I don't have to take the whole engine off the bike to replace looks sooo nice, but I'm seeing effects of laziness on my machine, so.... I'm torn. I can afford $75 right now, anything over $250 would have to wait a couple of paychecks/'til after rent's paid.

blaine

02-19-2014, 11:17 PM

Water Warrior 2

02-20-2014, 02:23 AM

I think it may be worth the gamble with just doing the head if the cylinder looks good. If, as suggested it was low oil then the cam may have been the only casualty due to being higher and receiving the least oil flow. Thinking positively, you may have just found an engine with a somewhat faulty cam that finally expired.
If you do the head only and find out the engine is bad and knocking you then have lots of experience and a usable head to re-sell.
Yes this is easy for me to say because I am not doing the work but if the budget is getting thin and rent is due...........................

b1pig

02-20-2014, 09:24 PM

someone correct me if i'm wrong... despite different exterior cosmetic stuff... is the TU250 engine physically the same?

cheap TU engine
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-Suzuki-TU250X-Engine-Runs-Great-/171177652569?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27dafbb159&vxp=mtr

gz engine
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Suzuki-Marauder-GZ-250-Engine-Motor-4276mi-Run-Drive-GUARANTEED-SEE-VIDEO-/301095206980?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item461aac4044&vxp=mtr

gz head
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUZUKI-LT250-DR250-GN250-GZ250-CYLINDER-HEAD-Complete-Assembly-with-all-parts-/161217707718?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item258952fec6&vxp=mtr

gz head
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CYLINDER-HEAD-Complete-Assembly-For-SUZUKI-LT250-DR250-GN250-GZ250-/321251431535?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4acc13d46f&vxp=mtr

I came late into this...
just remember that the ethanol gas has around a 45 day "shelf life" to it. you have to add stabilizers for it to last longer than that. the GZ carb is a PAIN to keep clean. i've had to disassemble and clean my wife's GZ carb 3 times.

The enrichment cable is also a pain. our bike live in a garage, and hers still corrodes. you have to be careful about it, but you have to remove the cable from the bike completely. (14mm wrench on the carb end) once you get the plunger and spring off (again, be careful) I put one end in a bench vice. I then slowly spray WD40/PB Blaster/ETC... down the end in my hand. usually the carb end. Once I feel like I get the thing soaked, I start working that cable a little. bending and twisting slightly as i go... until i get it worked loose. it takes a LOT of work, but its practically free. evenutally spray oil down both ends of the cable.

after you get a head or engine...
a little trick for getting it to pull fuel/prime.
with the petcock in PRIME, the bowl should fill. pull the side cover off the left side and expose the inlet for the airbox. put two or three fingers over the inlet to the airbox and hit start. you should feel the engine pull against your fingers. thats a "real" choke and it will speed up the starting process.

hope you get it fixed and running.

jonathan180iq

02-25-2014, 01:49 PM

That's a break at a stress point, not at something that looks like it would overheat and shear apart because of low oil. I think it's broken due to a manufacturing flaw in the casting process of the metal. We've seen something similar once before in someone's case. I think it may have been BadBob, but I don't recall.

I could be wrong... That being said, the head it leaking and the bike was nearly out of oil anyway when you went to check it. So......

Hmmmmm...

Thinking....

I still think your best bets are to either do a complete tear down and rebuild or to simply replace the engine, of which I'm leaning towards the latter. Like WW said, the big concern if it is oil is damage to the main bearing.

Let's say you replace the needed parts, get your timing dialed in, spec your valves, everything looks good and it runs. You'll ride the bike for a few days, a couple of weeks, maybe even a couple of months, and then you'll suddenly, out of nowhere, the bike just stops making power. It just won't go. You coast to a stop and hear hissing and seeping oil and blue white misty smoke everywhere and then you're back at square one, having to replace the engine.

It sucks, I know. internal damage is the worst kind to have. But just suck it up, do it right, and enjoy the bike. (I feel for you on the $$ end. Do your due diligence while shopping. It will pay off. Try Alibaba.

EDIT: Blaine - not WW.

grasshopper

03-06-2014, 11:17 AM

:hi:ImaginativeFig.....How is it working out with your gz250?

ImaginativeFig

03-18-2014, 05:05 PM

Sorry I haven't been posting. I got the replacement head and everything inside it was fine and dandy. The outside has weird coloration, I think someone painted it black long ago (it's an '83, the paint [if that's what it is] is pretty flaked...), it also had no carb boot, which is fine, since mine original's still fine, the big setback is that 3 of the exhaust bolts were shorn off in their holes, so I've spent the last 3 weeks off and on trying to get those loose.
I sprayed them with some PB'laster, used a torch to attempt to loosen by expanding the aluminum, then double nutted the longest one to try and get it out, but only wound up shearing it off flush. I've handed it over to a blacksmith/machining friend of mine and he's working on it as I type. If he can't do it, I might try to see if I can get a hold of some Tap Out Kit (which appears to be Nitric acid, which supposedly eats steel, but leaves aluminum alone due to how it oxidizes)

grasshopper

03-18-2014, 07:45 PM

Good to see you back.:cheers: Those bolts can be a real pain!:doh: Sounds like you have all the options. I hope one of them works out for you. Your friend should be able to get those out for you. Best of luck with Iffy and hopefully you'll be riding again soon.:ride: Keep us posted.

Water Warrior 2

03-19-2014, 03:36 AM

A big + for patience and persistence. Hang in there Iffy. :tup:

ImaginativeFig

03-26-2014, 08:22 PM

So my blacksmith friend was able to get the bolts out. He wound up cracking the aluminum on one of the holes, but it was on the outer part and he welded it some.

Ever since I refilled my oil, I've been noticing a fair amount of drippage coming from the bottom of the generator cover, so I opened that up to have a look, and opened the crank case also to make sure that the damage from the camshaft snap/low oil situation there.
The generator cover's gasket was all crappy, so I ordered a new one, along with some other gaskets I seemed to need and I waited for them to arrive.

Today they came in and I went to go put them on, however, when I was trying to put the generator cover back on, I cracked it, so... yeah... new thing to fix/replace.
https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/r270/10003447_10152085425212857_807896631_n.jpg
Whatchu think, whole new cover needed, or what?

Any other idiot traps I need to look out for when putting the bike back together?

raul10141964

03-26-2014, 10:50 PM

2 of the bolts have an aliment bushings, use thous bolts to sit the cover on please then tide all the bolts even.
Do not over tide or you strip the treads

ImaginativeFig

03-26-2014, 11:05 PM

Trying to decide whether to jump on this '99 Cover for $12.26 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-Suzuki-GZ250-Stator-Magneto-Engine-Cover-Left-Side-/400673469766?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5d49fff546&vxp=mtr) or to attempt to JB Weld

ImaginativeFig

03-27-2014, 12:38 AM

2 of the bolts have an aliment bushings, use thous bolts to sit the cover on please then tide all the bolts even.
Do not over tide or you strip the treads

I'm not sure what you're referring to.
I think you meant
"2 of the bolts have alignment bushings, use those bolts to sit the cover on, then tighten all the bolts evenly.
Do not over tighten or you will strip the threads" Is that right? (I am not trying to make fun of you, just trying to make sure I'm interpreting your writing correctly)

Which ones are the ones with alignment (or ailment, if I'm misunderstanding you)
bushings? Are those the cylinder thingies that stick out?

Water Warrior 2

03-27-2014, 02:12 AM

I'm not sure what you're referring to.
I think you meant
"2 of the bolts have alignment bushings, use those bolts to sit the cover on, then tighten all the bolts evenly.
Do not over tighten or you will strip the threads" Is that right? (I am not trying to make fun of you, just trying to make sure I'm interpreting your writing correctly)

Which ones are the ones with alignment (or ailment, if I'm misunderstanding you)
bushings? Are those the cylinder thingies that stick out?

The alignment bushing might also be thought of as an alignment pin. Not sure cause I've never had the pleasure of taking a cover of a GZ. But as Raul mentioned, tighten the bolts evenly and do not try the Strongman act on them. Aluminum doesn't play well with over tightening.

Water Warrior 2

03-27-2014, 02:13 AM

grasshopper

03-28-2014, 01:42 PM

You are almost there. You should get a gz250 mechanics certificate from Suzuki for all that your going through. :)

ImaginativeFig

04-02-2014, 08:37 PM

Replacement cover finally arrived today. Now having trouble getting damned magneto bolts out of the old one *rabble rabble rabble*
Why would they need to be so friggin' tight?

raul10141964

04-02-2014, 08:44 PM

impact driver is the correct tool

Water Warrior 2

04-03-2014, 01:45 AM

impact driver is the correct tool

That is the perfect tool for tight bike hardware. Cheap and built to last a lifetime. Mine is over 35 years old and still looks new. Haven't needed it often but sure glad to have it in the tool box.

ImaginativeFig

04-04-2014, 11:27 AM

I'm pretty sure I just cracked the replacement cover too.
This time I played it (what I thought was) really safe. I first tightened down the two bolts with bushings, not super tight, but to the point where there was some resistance and the cover was touching the bike at those points.
Then I finger tightened the rest of the bolts and took out an in-lb torque wrench. I started at 25 in-lb (2.82 Nm) and tightened all the bolts to that. There are 8 bolts so I'd start at the top, then move 3 over, tighten that, move 3 over, etc, 'til I returned to top, if top was no longer tightened to 25 in-lb, then I'd do them all again in the same pattern. If it was still at 25 in-lb, then I upped it to 30 in-lb repeated tightening procedure, up to 40 in-lb, repeated, then up by 10 in lb at a time all the way up to 120 in-lb at which point it cracked. Same place as before. Booooooooo

So yeah, apparently the limit for the magneto cover is just under 10 ft lb (13.56 Nm)

raul10141964

04-04-2014, 12:12 PM

Torque chart from the service manual

alantf

04-04-2014, 12:17 PM

You must be a mind reader :shrug: I've just downloaded it, and when I've come to post it, I've found you've already done it. :doh: :tup:

mainlinecoffee

04-04-2014, 11:07 PM

What size are the side cover bolts? Maybe I'm a moron but I just crank em til they squeak than bring on the loctite

Water Warrior 2

04-05-2014, 12:04 AM

What size are the side cover bolts? Maybe I'm a moron but I just crank em til they squeak than bring on the loctite

Be careful with the squeak theory. That may work with cast iron but aluminum is close to stripping out the threads with a squeak. Put blue Loktite on the threads of the bolt and run them in snug.

mainlinecoffee

04-06-2014, 02:09 PM

Yeah I learned that the hard way working on a Lifan dirt bike. The stator plates are awful to pound in too

ImaginativeFig

04-07-2014, 11:04 AM

Torque chart from the service manual

Ah, wow, so I was way overtightening (which I suppose was obvious anyway)
I think I really need a printed version of the manual, I keep missing things searching through the digital one.
In the engine reassembly instructions I believe it says something asinine like "tighten the cover bolts securely" which is pretty damned objective. Woulda been nice if they just constantly threw in reference to that table.

raul10141964

04-07-2014, 02:43 PM

on page 7-24 is the torque specific for the chassis

ImaginativeFig

04-20-2014, 04:26 PM

Tried putting on the 2nd replacement cover today, measured the bolt diameters at 7/32nd with a crappy caliper, which is 5.5 mm, so I rounded down for safety and liklihood to 5mm, which the table on 7-25 says should be torqued to 2 lb ft, onlything is that at 2 lbft, the cover isn't even pulled flush with the body of the bike, so I turned it to 3 lbft. Still gap. 4 lbft. POP! No visible crack, but it's probably there somewhere. We can still get a piece of paper in between the parts on the troublesome left side.
I'm not really sure what to do at this point. Assuming the crankcase must be warped somehow. Or I'm somehow doing something very stupid.

ImaginativeFig

04-20-2014, 05:50 PM

The way I see it my options are:

Leave the current not-visibly-cracked-but-probably-close cover on and RTV around the edges to try and seal it (costs RTV + possible oil leak/vacuum seal problems)
Get a 3rd replacement cover and either try again myself or ask my shop to do it ($15-30 + shop labor if they do it)
buy either a full engine or lower engine off of ebay ($200-$400)
buy a new bike ($1,000-$3,000)
go bikeless (I'm leaving the country in less than a year and would probably sell then anyway) (free, but inconvenient)

Water Warrior 2

04-20-2014, 07:15 PM

blaine

04-20-2014, 08:10 PM

Can you hold the cover in place with your hand and get a proper fit or does the cover not fit flush to the engine?

If the cover does not flush to the engine case check to make sure that the stator is seated on the crank properly it may be out just enough to keep the cover from seating. ;) :)

ImaginativeFig

04-20-2014, 10:49 PM

No, none of the covers, including the one I originally took off immediately after taking it off, could just be held up to the bike flush, too much weird stuff going on with the magnets, I figured. Getting it off is difficult too. There's no feeling of metal being dragged against anything though. which is why I figured it was a weird magnetic thing.

With all the names (generator, magneto, stator, etc) being applied to different parts in there I'm a bit foggy on which is which. What you're talking about, blaine, is the big metal cylinder that's attached to the body of the bike and rotates around the coil-y flower thing that's attached to the cover? How could it possibly be mis-seated?

blaine

04-20-2014, 11:09 PM

ImaginativeFig

04-23-2014, 05:27 PM

Flywheel? Another term? So that's the part that goes around the stator, the part that you're looking at when you open the window to look for the line for TDC?
As soon as finals crunch is over, I'm going to take that cover off and take a close look at the case side of this whole situation. I'll take the stator off the cover and see what I can see about how the holes all line up and all that to try and figure out if the flaw is in the case, all 3 covers (ha!), or just the mechanic.

blaine

04-23-2014, 05:33 PM

ImaginativeFig

04-23-2014, 11:04 PM

Hahaha, so the good news is, I didn't crack my 3rd, bad news is I did crack my starter driven gear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bsC-v4i-og
Any ideas about this?
The shaft coming out of the gears to the left seems to be fitting overly snuggly into its slot in the magneto cover and I don't see the top, smaller gear of that pair on any of the diagrams in the service manual or in the parts fische (though I'm really not sure I'm looking at the right figure in the fische)

raul10141964

04-23-2014, 11:34 PM

you put the small gear on the wrong way

jonathan180iq

04-24-2014, 09:18 AM

Did you you read through BadBob's tear down and replacement? It had photos and everything. Have I not brought that up before? Maybe it was somewhere else that I mentioned that.

ImaginativeFig

04-24-2014, 10:15 AM

I never did anything to the small gear.
All we did to that side was open it up, look for metal shavings/damage, then ordere
d a new gasket, once the new gasket came in, I attempted to put the cover on and all the cracking started. The gears are in the same order they were when I first opened it, I'd totally believe that you're right and they're in the wrong order, except that I don't see how I ever got my bike started in the past if that's so.
I'll go look for/at BadBob's teardown

ImaginativeFig

04-24-2014, 10:48 AM

I'm not having any luck finding Badbob's tear down. Searched all the posts ever started by him. Some interesting ones, to be sure. Was it in the Instructional Articles? Somewhere else?
Edit: Found where you mentioned it, in clofan's post, which by the way, since I'm going to be taking the rotor off, any tips on preventing Clofan's situation would be greatly appreciated. As I'm looking at pictures and videos of how these things work, it appears his situation is not terribly uncommon.

jonathan180iq

04-24-2014, 10:54 AM

http://gz250bike.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1986 - Changing the Oil Cover Gasket

http://gz250bike.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1476 - Fix a Slippery Clutch

Not exactly the same thing, but this should offer some insight. Badbob is not around anymore, but he was rather descriptive with thoughts.

ImaginativeFig

04-24-2014, 11:43 PM

Clofan, who was very recently in that part of the engine confirms what Raul said, that the pair of little gears is reversed from how it's supposed to be. I'm still a little bit mind boggled on how on Earth my engine's been starting this whole time... (edit: you know, back when it had a full cam shaft)

blaine

04-25-2014, 12:10 AM

It baffles me how a cover was on there tightly before with no issues.:hmm::???:

ImaginativeFig

04-25-2014, 12:31 AM

Yeah, it's not like they're loose. Haha, I had the thought of maybe one of my room mates knocked it out and put it back in, but no...
Friggin' mysteries man. I seriously can't figure out how it happened.
I wonder if my friend's friend who was looking at it in October/November did something, put the gears in wrong, and then miraculously got the cover back on w/o cracking anything? But when I asked him what he checked he didn't say anything about going into any part of the engine (or doing an oil change... but maybe that's why it had so little oil in it in January?)
I dunno. I guess I need a new starter driven gear though. Unless y'all think I'd have some luck with welding (JB or friend who welds) this one?

raul10141964

04-25-2014, 12:53 PM

this is my gear after my starter clutch explode because the bolts holding it to the magneto become lost
i use a mig welder to fix it and a dreamel tool to touche up the tits
is noisy but being working for about 6 mots i planing to inspect it when i do the 6000mi oil change

ImaginativeFig

04-25-2014, 11:50 PM

Well, apparently I have a minor butt ton of friends who weld, so I'm going to see if my bike shop will be so kind as to lend me a rotor puller and send the gear off to one of those friends

ImaginativeFig

04-29-2014, 07:20 PM

Anyone got recommendations for taking off that flywheel nut? Suzuki's "rotor holder" tool looks like a joke (it's just a rounded Y with two screws)

blaine

04-29-2014, 08:29 PM

Anyone got recommendations for taking off that flywheel nut? Suzuki's "rotor holder" tool looks like a joke (it's just a rounded Y with two screws)
A strap wrench works well.;) :)

raul10141964

04-29-2014, 09:05 PM

impact wrench

blaine

04-29-2014, 09:23 PM

impact wrench
Yes if you use a impact wrench (air gun) you don't need to worry about holding the flywheel. ;) :)

ImaginativeFig

04-30-2014, 12:39 PM

I convinced my brother to go in on an impact and impact socket set with me (the electric kind, not hydraulic) with me. We're about to be room mates for a good while, so joint custody works out. Anyway, after letting it charge up, the impact worked fine at getting that nut off without a holder.

The puller I'd borrowed from the shop was too messed up to go on, so I pushed Cooter to the shop and we found a puller that fit and it came off pretty easily.

The idle gears were pretty snugged in there from the whole incident, so I used a pulley puller to lever them off (my room mate got another load of inherited tools from his grandpa which luckily had a selection of pulley pullers in it).

There's no way it was running with the gears like that, they had to have been switched since the bike broke down, I just don't know who/when/where/why.

So here's the damage. It's pretty messed up, not a clean snap, just bent 'til failure, so I'm scouring ebay for a replacement.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/10325237_10152153344182857_2675782866292131923_n.j pg

jonathan180iq

04-30-2014, 05:00 PM

See if you can just find a wreck bike and buy the whole thing... It's crazy how some of this stuff just magically fails/ends up backwards...

ImaginativeFig

05-01-2014, 11:33 AM

I've been looking. Can't find anything local, but did find one in Houston, but the seller stopped talking to me. Does switching engines and stuff change the title or registration stuff?

Also, my bike shop has been great about letting me borrow tools, they actually wound up taking my flywheel off for me (for free), I buy everything I need new from them (gaskets, oil, will probably get tires soon), but I'm feeling kinda free loadery. Would you guys (particularly the Americans, since this is probably pretty culture dependant) tip them or something? How much? And when there's 5 guys all helping a little bit, how does that get distributed? Haha, my boyfriend suggested baking them some cookies, but that might just be too girly for my pride.

raul10141964

05-01-2014, 12:36 PM

hear is one on e-bay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/05-Suzuki-GZ-250-Starter-One-Way-Clutch-Gear-OEM-A4229-/360853689747?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item54048e5593&vxp=mtr

jonathan180iq

05-01-2014, 03:09 PM

IT's honestly good business - as a shop and mechanic guy - the best tip you can give me is sending your friends to that particular place. If it's a "mom & pop" business, they can't compete with advertising so customer service and quality work is their calling card. It's why when a local place doesn't offer the kind of service that you're getting right now, we recommend that people walk away.

If you feel obliged to toss in a few dollars, then by all means do so. But you're buying new parts from them and you are giving them repeat service. In their eyes, you're already one of the better customers. Their service to you isn't something that they are doing just cause they are looking for a handout.

ImaginativeFig

05-01-2014, 09:11 PM

Thanks raul, I actually found one at a very similar price with cheap expedited shipping. It should be here as soon as tomorrow! :3

jonathan, I kinda figured that. I dunno, one of the more blunt guys got really excited with the service request form when he heard I'd actually pushed the bike in. He's like "Here fill this out!" and I'm like, "Oh... well, the puller Isidro lent me was too mangled to use, so I was coming to see if we could find one that would fit actually..." and then Isidro tried really hard to get me to buy the gear there but... haha... $200...
I'm leaving them good reviews on any review sites I find though.

ImaginativeFig

05-08-2014, 10:44 PM

*Sigh* so I got 'im all reassembled, but still no go. Not sure if I'm just being skiddish and all those loud, bad sounding noises are normal (it's been so long since I heard what he's supposed to sound like).

But anyway, they were alarming noises and my boyfriend agreed that they were somewhat alarming and then we tried to turn over the engine by hand and found that I had not tightened the rotor nut on enough.

I took my impact to it again and got the nut about flush with the end of the shaft, the bf expressed concerns about messing up the crank shaft, so I stopped.

We tried with the ignition again and it made different alarming noises and he thought that the cam chain was in a bind, but we were both cranky and called it quits for the day

Today I took the cylinder head cover back off to have a look, saw nothing, drained all the oil back out and took a peek in the crank case at the lower end of the cam chain, and saw nothing wrong, so I tried turning it over by hand again and this video around 1:10 is how that worked out for me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoFU7IDRw6U

ImaginativeFig

05-09-2014, 02:45 PM

Fun. Well... good thing I have my valves from my old head?
Any tips on preventing the same problem on reassembly?

jonathan180iq

05-09-2014, 03:24 PM

It's been the last year or so that all of these valve problems have been popping up... I don't remember being an issue for most of the life of this forum. All of the years of these bikes are different, and I haven't really kept up with mileage data. Maybe it's just that we have more members trying to fix a problem instead of people never posting and then just throwing their bikes, away. But it seems odd.

Anyway. The valve issue isn't something that happened because of you cranking the bike. A few different things had to fail all around the same time, and the broken gear and the subsequent searching for issues probably all boils down to this.

What kind of shape was your old head in? You'll also want the guides too. I don't recall the whole story. But if you have a good head on hand, then you're good to go. I'd just swap it over.

ImaginativeFig

05-19-2014, 12:24 AM

I really don't think it's a valve problem. I hand cranked again with the head fully assembled and the valve windows open and the most resistance happens a bit before the intake valves open up, not during any valve movement.
So after hand cranking it a bunch and not encountering anything too bad, I decided to try with the key again. This time got a whole new sound. Just realized I didn't dump a whole new load of oil in there this time, so it was just going with the dregs that were left over after I took the side off 2 weeks ago.
No terrible sounds tonight, a familiar failing sound that I forget the meaning of. What causes this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tan_b-vanM&edit=vd

gz4me +

05-19-2014, 10:04 PM

I know this might sound stupid, but did you check for spark after putting everything back togeather?? Grandson and I still have not got his GZ going. Last time we took everything apart and then put it back and still would not start, We did find bad connection at pick-up coil to CDI connector. Fixed that and got spark back, but still no start for us. But did have spark back. Hang in there!!!! You are doing one hell of a job.

ImaginativeFig

05-25-2014, 01:53 PM

Ok, I've check for spark, then a second time checked for spark with a witness. Spark is strong and purpley and jumping across the gap, which is the right distance.

When I'm holding the starter, the engine does turn over, there is air being pushed out of the exhaust (so my camshaft prolly isn't snapped again :P )

We tried starting it with starter fluid (actual starter fluid that I bought from the store, nothing approximate about it), no go, but we did get a reversion that scared me...

I also tried running starting it twice on Thursday. The first time I got two loud backfires,
the second time it started, but sputtered out.

so... what now?

ImaginativeFig

06-13-2014, 05:47 PM

Ok, since I had reason to believe I had spark, air, fuel, and compression, I started looking for timing or other stuff that could be wrong. I eventually found isaac's thread called "No start: Have spark, have fuel, have air" (http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4950) in which he discovered that his woodruff key had been shorn off, thus allowing the flywheel to misalign and screw up the ignition timing.
If you'll remember from last page (about a month ago), I intially didn't tighten my flywheel on tight enough, well, as it turns out, that destroyed my woodruff key.
It took some time to figure out how to get it out, since the protruding part was completely flattened/gone.
Turns out that the semi-circular shape means you just have to push down on one end (by, say, tapping an awl on it with a hammer) and the other pops up and can just be pulled out, so it's not really an excuse for your friend to build his arc welder, but whatever, we got it.

I put a new one in today with great hopes that it would go, but it didn't. It was hot and it took us a long time to tighten everything down on my bike all proper-like, but yeah, it won't go. Turn over sounds, no catching. I'll take another look at it sometime next week, I guess.

k1w1t1m

06-13-2014, 10:47 PM

Are you sure the cam timing is correct? I've never been inside one of these, just throwing an idea out.

ImaginativeFig

06-16-2014, 09:15 AM

It's definitely something I'll have to check again.
I'm missing the white line on the cam sprocket that's supposed to be at the front when it's timed, so even if did have it rightish, I may still be 180 off.

k1w1t1m

06-17-2014, 03:46 PM

I hand cranked again with the head fully assembled and the valve windows open and the most resistance happens a bit before the intake valves open up, not during any valve movement.

This is what makes me think cam timing. The most resistance should be just before the exhaust valves open.

5th_bike

06-18-2014, 10:32 PM

This is what makes me think cam timing. The most resistance should be just before the exhaust valves open.

I think you're right, however the most resistance is on the compression stroke, and both valves remain closed, then. So "just" meaning, after the piston goes down from the compression.

The exhaust valve should then remain open until the piston is at the top again. That is when the inlet valves should start opening. And the inlet valves should close when the piston is down again. Then, all valves should remain closed when the piston goes up, to the compression.

ImaginativeFig

10-05-2014, 05:51 PM

It was the woodruff key again. This time it didn't get shredded, it had just gotten pushed out when I was putting the rotor on or something.
Then the carb was gunked up and needed cleaning,
here's what it's doing now, what do you guys think I should do about it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-CC1LpmGUU

Water Warrior 2

10-05-2014, 08:15 PM

what do you guys think I should do about it?
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-CC1LpmGUU)
Give yourself a pat on the back. Go top up the tank and take a looonng pleasant ride for your efforts.

gz4me +

10-06-2014, 12:20 AM

Happy to see and hear your GZ up and running. You have been thru alot with this bike. Most would not have hung in there like you. I agree!!! Give yourself a good pat on the back. Grandson and I took a break from his GZ about the same time you were not posting. We have not got his running yet. Needed some time off to calm the nerves and build up some money. Hopefully we will have his going soon. We might be asking for help from you, so keep posting on here. Nice Job!!!!!

blaine

10-06-2014, 08:08 AM

WTG. Glad to see you hang in there & get her running.......now enjoy!!!! ;) :)

jonathan180iq

10-06-2014, 11:59 AM

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17ndmvj5bm3chgif/original.gif

5th_bike

10-10-2014, 01:28 AM

R-E-S-P-E-C-T !!!

I think you're amazing.

Now please drive carefully.

ImaginativeFig

10-16-2014, 06:34 PM

Hey, in that video, does my bike sound normal to you guys? My friend said it sounded like I had an exhaust leak. I can't remember what's normal. Dunno how concerned to be

jonathan180iq

10-17-2014, 09:52 AM

I didn't notice anything weird.

5th_bike

10-17-2014, 10:34 PM

Sounds healthy to me.

gz4me +

10-18-2014, 12:41 AM

Same as the others. Sounds good to me.