Problems related?

[OldNTired]

Hi. Well, got a new problem, or I should say questions.
History:
Two days ago, after a 40 minute ride at 75-to-80 MPH at 94 degrees warm, and humid weather, when I parked I saw that ONE exhaust pipe (right side) had discolored. If both had, no problem, but why just one?
The next day, after pretty much the same ride at the same speed, and for the same amount of time, the entire LEFT side of the engine (along with my jeans and boot) were covered in oil, as was the entire lower left side back to the rectifier.
The oil level was halfway between 'too much' and 'not enough' before the second ride. The level now is just at the 'add' mark.
Can any one think of any reason? Of any link between the two?
I last checked the valve clearance about 5000 miles ago. The bike has a little over 10,000 miles on it.
No, I haven't had time to work on it. After a few beautiful days we are now caught in that series of storms that are dumpimg inches of rain. I need to clean the bike outside, and because of other 'projects' I don't have the room to work on it in the garage. I'm hoping for a clue, so when I get the chance I can make this an afternoon job by having whatever parts I might need handy.


Extra info: air box is clean, filter is fine, oil filter has 1500 miles on it, bike ran more than fine before this and still does - except for the leak! :)

Thanks for any help.

[Water Warrior 2]

The pipe color may indicate a needed valve check/adjustment. I do think you were working the bike fairly hard in those conditions at that speed. An oil leak on the left side might indicate a bad seal where the shifter comes out of the tranny. You did say left side I hope. Short term memory loss here at the moment. AKA senior moment.
Hmm, maybe the seal where the shaft comes out of the tranny that the front sprocket is mounted on. I'm guessing at these but it is a starting point none the less.

[Road_Clam]

The pipe color may indicate a needed valve check/adjustment.

Agreed, i'm thinking a tight valve adj causing slightly low compression and an overly rich running condition bluing the exhaust pipe ? I'm am surprised the engine was able to pull 75 mph with a tight valve. :??:

The only other thing I can think of if the valves are within spec is too hot ambient temps to hard of an engine load.

The oil leak, clean the residual oil mess, sprinkle the suspected clean area with baby powder and take the bike on the highway, the origin of the oil leak will be easily found.

[alantf]

after a 40 minute ride at 75-to-80 MPH at 94 degrees warm, and humid weather,

If this is "normal" riding for you, I reckon you need a bigger bike. You're knocking the bejazus out of the poor little GZ. :)

[jonathan180iq]

Clean the area up and see if you can determine where the oil came from.

I would suspect it's going to be the left side exhaust gasket or from the head gasket area on that side... which I hope for your sake it is not.
Check the "S" hose that runs between the crankcase and the air box. If you are lucky, that dislodged and you had some spray come out. However, if that were the case, you could have noticed the bike lose a good bit of power and start to bet sluggish and/or bucky.

You have to figure out where it came from before you can fix it ;)

[OldNTired]

The pipe color may indicate a needed valve check/adjustment. I do think you were working the bike fairly hard in those conditions at that speed. An oil leak on the left side might indicate a bad seal where the shifter comes out of the tranny. You did say left side I hope. Short term memory loss here at the moment. AKA senior moment.
Hmm, maybe the seal where the shaft comes out of the tranny that the front sprocket is mounted on. I'm guessing at these but it is a starting point none the less.

Agree with the idea of possibly needing a valve adjustment. It does confuse me though, when I last set them I set both exhaust valves the same. Maybe something in the specs makes it harder on one valve than the other, or a heat difference, or material differences. >
I know about those senior moments, seems like I live in one long one some days! But, The area near the shifter was the cleanest area. Also, the oil starts at the very front of the engine, and all over from top to bottom. Then the air flow sprayed it all the way to the rear fender.
And yes, I'll take the blame for pushing it on a hot day. It seldom gets that hot here, and going that fast helps cool you off! :)
After I get a chance (still raining hard here) to clean it up, I'll be checking for the leak, starting with the shifter area. Thanks.

[OldNTired]

[quote="Water Warrior":1eul0oa1]The pipe color may indicate a needed valve check/adjustment.

Agreed, i'm thinking a tight valve adj causing slightly low compression and an overly rich running condition bluing the exhaust pipe ? I'm am surprised the engine was able to pull 75 mph with a tight valve. :??:

The only other thing I can think of if the valves are within spec is too hot ambient temps to hard of an engine load.

The oil leak, clean the residual oil mess, sprinkle the suspected clean area with baby powder and take the bike on the highway, the origin of the oil leak will be easily found.[/quote:1eul0oa1]

Yes, and not only hot but a very high humidity day. One of those days where they warn us old folks not to be outside. :)
So, after I get it cleaned I'll steal my grandkids baby powder and see what is where.
Thanks.

[OldNTired]

after a 40 minute ride at 75-to-80 MPH at 94 degrees warm, and humid weather,

If this is "normal" riding for you, I reckon you need a bigger bike. You're knocking the bejazus out of the poor little GZ. :)

Ha ha! No, not normal on the temperature or the humidity. But that little bike has for years been driven at those speeds at least once a week. Never a problem before now. Maybe the combination of heat and humidity just overheated the poor thing.
A bigger bike wouldn't hurt though, especially for a long trip. Donations gladly accepted! :)

[OldNTired]

Clean the area up and see if you can determine where the oil came from.

I would suspect it's going to be the left side exhaust gasket or from the head gasket area on that side... which I hope for your sake it is not.
Check the "S" hose that runs between the crankcase and the air box. If you are lucky, that dislodged and you had some spray come out. However, if that were the case, you could have noticed the bike lose a good bit of power and start to bet sluggish and/or bucky.

You have to figure out where it came from before you can fix it ;)

No luck with the 'S' hose, it's there and on tight.
The head gasket sounds a bit ominous. I priced one, seems cheap enough, and that tells me it might be a lot of work to replace it. Just guessing here, but wouldn't I have lost a good bit of power and speed if that is the problem. I don't know, just thinking and hoping.
Any idea how big of a job it is?

[Water Warrior 2]

Get your own baby powder. You will find it is nice to sprinkle some in your boots and undies plus you smell so nice. Oh..............of topic again. :roll: :roll:

[OldNTired]

Get your own baby powder. You will find it is nice to sprinkle some in your boots and undies plus you smell so nice. Oh..............of topic again. :roll: :roll:

With my luck the cops would stop me for speeding, then claim the baby powder was coke! :roll: :)

[jonathan180iq]

http://stores.intuitwebsites.com/hstrial-HOMEMEDICALSUPPL/catalog/baby-powder.jpg

It's actually a very gratifying way to stop ball chaffing when you're hiking or swamp butt when you're on a hot leather saddle for a long period of time.

[Water Warrior 2]

Get your own baby powder. You will find it is nice to sprinkle some in your boots and undies plus you smell so nice. Oh..............of topic again. :roll: :roll:

With my luck the cops would stop me for speeding, then claim the baby powder was coke! :roll: :)
Offer them a snort.

[OldNTired]

http://stores.intuitwebsites.com/hstrial-HOMEMEDICALSUPPL/catalog/baby-powder.jpg

It's actually a very gratifying way to stop ball chaffing when you're hiking or swamp butt when you're on a hot leather saddle for a long period of time.

It's not usually this hot or humid around here, but I will remember this
if this weather keeps up. It was worse today than any other this week.

[OldNTired]

[quote="Water Warrior":14dvi95y]Get your own baby powder. You will find it is nice to sprinkle some in your boots and undies plus you smell so nice. Oh..............of topic again. :roll: :roll:

With my luck the cops would stop me for speeding, then claim the baby powder was coke! :roll: :)
Offer them a snort.[/quote:14dvi95y]

The pigs around here would want it all! Hell, they'd probably sniff it off of the engine - while it was running!
But, WW, we could use you here today. After a week of over 2 inches of rain every day,
today we got over 3. Some major roads were more than 5 foot under water, and within a 10 minute walk from my place houses and businesses were flooded out. Tomorrow, hopefully, I'll be able to work on the GZ.

[Water Warrior 2]

5 feet of water on major roads is major trouble. That much water can wash out roadbeds below the pavement and then some one falls through into an ugly hole. A small watermain leak can accomplish the same thing and no one is the wiser until a bus crashes down into a pit. Hopefully no one gets hurt and the repairs are job security for the maintenance guys who make things right again.
Comes to mind an event one of my coworkers did. He fired up two major pumps full tilt in a given area. The pressure increase blew fire hydrants into the sky like rockets. Just plain stupid. Water can be a powerful force, do major damage and really is capable of threatening a person's life.

[Rookie Rider]

Arent 1 or 2 of the gz members here police officers or retired officers ? lol

[dentheman]

I have found that riding at highway speeds on hot days even affects my Shadow which I thought was built for such riding. It affects the shifting. It really needs an oil cooler or at least some cooling fins on the lower case. I haven't read other complaints, so I think it is peculiar to my bike. I am thinking that a spring in the tranny weakens when the oil is very hot because it goes back to normal after cooling just a couple minutes. No leaks though.

[Water Warrior 2]

Arent 1 or 2 of the gz members here police officers or retired officers ? lol
YES. And fine folks too boot.

[alantf]

Yes, I'd like to boot some of the Guardia Civil Trafico. (Make that ALL of them) :2tup:

[Water Warrior 2]

Woo Hoo, looks like a LEO bashing party. In all honesty we have to realize different parts of the world have different ways to uphold the law and persecute the public. I feel very fortunate here in the GWN. Personally I have never been mistreated or unjustly accused of an offence. I have however been arrested for going way too fast in a car years ago. Yeah, I really deserved that one. A lot of the misgivings of law enforcement is caused by the politicians and their desire to control the public at large. It is all about money in the gov bank accounts too. LEOs find themselves between a rock and a hard place all too often. Even here we get a few bad apples while the majority do what is best but the public seems to paint them all with the same brush. Yes, I am defending the LEOs as I know them. It is a very under appreciated job and not likely to make them overly rich at retirement. I hate to think of my world without law enforcement and the dedicated men and women out there.

[OldNTired]

5 feet of water on major roads is major trouble. That much water can wash out roadbeds below the pavement and then some one falls through into an ugly hole. A small watermain leak can accomplish the same thing and no one is the wiser until a bus crashes down into a pit. Hopefully no one gets hurt and the repairs are job security for the maintenance guys who make things right again.
Comes to mind an event one of my coworkers did. He fired up two major pumps full tilt in a given area. The pressure increase blew fire hydrants into the sky like rockets. Just plain stupid. Water can be a powerful force, do major damage and really is capable of threatening a person's life.

Hello everyone.
No real progress yet.
I just figured I'd post so you all wouldn't think that either it was fixed
or that I gave up on it.
Neither has happened. I've just had a few problems lately.

Anyway, today I replaced my 22mm socket (don't ask, but never lend! :) )
and tried to check valve setting.
I could NOT get a (any size) feeler guage under either exhaust stem.
Yes, I have in the past, but today it just didn't happen. Amazing.
So, tomorrow I'll try again. It might just have been me today.
But how could the thing have run?

Ps: No offense meant the other day in regards to cops. Ok, at least not a LOT.
Some are OK. At least that's what I've heard. :)
In the end, they are just like the rest of us; good, bad, and the norm.

[jonathan180iq]

Today I replaced my 22mm socket (don't ask, but never lend! :) )
and tried to check valve setting.
I could NOT get a (any size) feeler guage under either exhaust stem.
Yes, I have in the past, but today it just didn't happen. Amazing.
So, tomorrow I'll try again. It might just have been me today.
But how could the thing have run?



Well, as long as the engine was cold when you did the check, then I'm pretty sure you'll get the same results tomorrow.
That would certainly explain the overheating issue... Now, not to be ominous, but I really hope that overheating issue hasn't also lead to something warping which is why you now have an oil leak from the top end. Very similar thing happened to me in a Geo Metro Convertible. I took the previous owner's word that his repairs were solid when I bought it. The timing wasn't set right, combined with an air leak, and before too much longer, I had a warped head on my hands and a seeping oil leak from under the cam seal when the engine was running. Not the way I had planned on spending my student loan refund.

[OldNTired]

Today I replaced my 22mm socket (don't ask, but never lend! :) )
and tried to check valve setting.
I could NOT get a (any size) feeler guage under either exhaust stem.
Yes, I have in the past, but today it just didn't happen. Amazing.
So, tomorrow I'll try again. It might just have been me today.
But how could the thing have run?



Well, as long as the engine was cold when you did the check, then I'm pretty sure you'll get the same results tomorrow.
That would certainly explain the overheating issue... Now, not to be ominous, but I really hope that overheating issue hasn't also lead to something warping which is why you now have an oil leak from the top end. Very similar thing happened to me in a Geo Metro Convertible. I took the previous owner's word that his repairs were solid when I bought it. The timing wasn't set right, combined with an air leak, and before too much longer, I had a warped head on my hands and a seeping oil leak from under the cam seal when the engine was running. Not the way I had planned on spending my student loan refund.

Finally had some time today without rain and such!
Those valves were so tight it took a while to get them loose enough to adjust.
Set both to 4.5. Double checked them.
Then, I washed the engine. Powdered it.
Put everything back together, and started it up.
It ran fine! A bit mre noise than before the adjustment, but that is OK.

Ran it for about 15 minutes until the rain started again, varying the speed
between low idle to about 3500 RPM,,
but no leaks!
Tomorrow we are supposed to get 'heavy thunderstorms', high (60mph)
winds, large hail, and lightening.
Still, hoping to get a break in there to take it for
a longer ride on the highway. Temp they say will be 90 (heat index of 100), and it will
be humid, so it should duplicate the conditions of the other day.

PS for Water Warrior: The powder made the bike smell nice. :)

[jonathan180iq]

Glad to hear that it's all looking up.

While running for those 15 minutes of varying speeds, I am assuming you did this with the bike stationary, right?
Be careful there as well. People have come on here before and told stories of cooking their bikes because they left them idling in the driveway to "warm up" for about 15-20 minutes only to come outside and find smoke and discolored metal.

Maybe run a good sturdy fan in front of the engine when doing something like this?

[bpdchief]

Oh Man... If I had any feelings left - you would have hurt them with those bad cop remarks !!! :poke2: This used to be me looking for and watching meth labs :hide:
A terribly unappreciated field of endeavor, and yet, a necessary evil in this world. If people were only more civil to one another, there would be less need for crabby old Irish cop bastards like me :) . No one wants us around until something goes wrong and then once it's cleared up they want us to go away again... makes me feel like Rodney Dangerfield - "Ahh, I don't get NO respect"

:lol:

[OldNTired]

Glad to hear that it's all looking up.

While running for those 15 minutes of varying speeds, I am assuming you did this with the bike stationary, right?
Be careful there as well. People have come on here before and told stories of cooking their bikes because they left them idling in the driveway to "warm up" for about 15-20 minutes only to come outside and find smoke and discolored metal.

Maybe run a good sturdy fan in front of the engine when doing something like this?

Nope, no fan, but I did have a 40 MPH
(at minimum) helping out! I guess these storms are good for somethig.

[OldNTired]

Oh Man... If I had any feelings left - you would have hurt them with those bad cop remarks !!! :poke2: This used to be me looking for and watching meth labs :hide:
A terribly unappreciated field of endeavor, and yet, a necessary evil in this world. If people were only more civil to one another, there would be less need for crabby old Irish cop bastards like me :) . No one wants us around until something goes wrong and then once it's cleared up they want us to go away again... makes me feel like Rodney Dangerfield - "Ahh, I don't get NO respect"

:lol:

Sorry, didn't mean any of it personally! Actually, I have had a LOT of cop friends over the years. Back when it was legal, I'd even load ammo for their off-duty weapons. Unforunately, it was still the same: some good, some bad, some neutral. Then again, sometimes I am good, sometimes
I'm bad, most times I'm just human. :) Seems like we all are like that. And I would never hold you being a cop against you. Well, maybe unless you were out to arrest me!

[Water Warrior 2]

Just don't do anything that requires an arrest.

[alantf]

My point was that it's the TRAFFIC COPS that I'm against. Both in England & over here, their role seems to be that of money gatherers for the government. I've not seen the slightest indication that they're in any way interested in trying to reduce accidents & deaths. I've seen many incidents where someone's made a genuine mistake, but instead of having a quiet word of advice they immediately go into "FINE" mode, because getting money out of motorists is easier than working for a living, & the more money they make, the better they're thought of by their bosses.

As an example, I was 6 MPH over the limit. This was genuinely accidental. I'd taken my eyes off the speedo to check that the good straight road (with no real reason for a limit) was clear, then reduced my speed to the limit. But it was enough for the money gatherer in uniform to issue me with a €100 ($150?) fine.

[OldNTired]

Just don't do anything that requires an arrest.

My friend, the laws are so restrictive these days that the average person
commits 3 felonies almost every day without even realizing it! Google it if you doubt that. :)
I'd rather just ride my bike in peace, though. :)
But I still can't. Had a chance to actually ride it for a while today.
Lots of noise, very little torque.
But - no leaking!
I've been setting valves since my first car, a '57 Sport Fury,
I guess either I've lost my touch,
or something else is wrong.
No time to work on it until late next week though,
too much damage around the house, yard, and garden to fix first.
These storms have been brutal.

[OldNTired]

My point was that it's the TRAFFIC COPS that I'm against. Both in England & over here, their role seems to be that of money gatherers for the government. I've not seen the slightest indication that they're in any way interested in trying to reduce accidents & deaths. I've seen many incidents where someone's made a genuine mistake, but instead of having a quiet word of advice they immediately go into "FINE" mode, because getting money out of motorists is easier than working for a living, & the more money they make, the better they're thought of by their bosses.

As an example, I was 6 MPH over the limit. This was genuinely accidental. I'd taken my eyes off the speedo to check that the good straight road (with no real reason for a limit) was clear, then reduced my speed to the limit. But it was enough for the money gatherer in uniform to issue me with a €100 ($150?) fine.


Not much different than here! I have been luck the older I get though.
For the last 10 years they have let me go with a warning.
What was the speed limit where they stopped you?

[alantf]

[attachment=0:7lmbym73]view 37.JPG[/attachment:7lmbym73][attachment=1:7lmbym73]view 32.JPG[/attachment:7lmbym73]50 k/hr. But although I was slightly over, it was not intentional. There is no good reason for that limit, on this stretch of good road, with no houses, schools, hidden dangers etc, except as a cash cow for the police. I was well aware of this, & knew that there was often a hidden camera car, so the slight speed increase was as I took my eyes off the speedo to check the road ahead. I'm surprised that there aren't more accidents on that stretch of road, with motorists watching the speedo more than the road. These are a couple of views of the road.....$150 for 6mph!!!!!!

[Water Warrior 2]

There is one danger that I can see. You may fall asleep from boredom and hit a light pole. In all honesty that section of road could be a 70 or 80 kph easily with a reduced limit for any curves.

[Water Warrior 2]

Alantf, just had a thought as to the speed limit. Could it be possible that the limit is lower than expected to make it safer for the smaller scooters that are so common there. Some of them barely top out above 55 kph on flat ground.

[alantf]

Not really....They're usually the ones that shoot past me while I'm at the speed limit.

Another example of cash gathering.......... Quite often, on the approach to a roundabout (in a 50 K/hr zone) there'll be a single 40 k/hr sign, about ½ mile before the roundabout. If anyone should miss that single sign, then woe betide them, because the police wait (in hiding) at the roundabouts for anyone approaching at 50 k/hr, so they can jump out and fine them.

[Water Warrior 2]

Ouch, sounds like a money maker with one sign.

[OldNTired]

[attachment=0:21jkvtc9]view 37.JPG[/attachment:21jkvtc9][attachment=1:21jkvtc9]view 32.JPG[/attachment:21jkvtc9]50 k/hr. But although I was slightly over, it was not intentional. There is no good reason for that limit, on this stretch of good road, with no houses, schools, hidden dangers etc, except as a cash cow for the police. I was well aware of this, & knew that there was often a hidden camera car, so the slight speed increase was as I took my eyes off the speedo to check the road ahead. I'm surprised that there aren't more accidents on that stretch of road, with motorists watching the speedo more than the road. These are a couple of views of the road.....$150 for 6mph!!!!!!


I am a little confused. You say you were going 50 KPH, but them said 6 MPH over the limit! Please be consistent - us old guys get confused easily!
Also, I always think in MPH, so your 50 KPH is only about 30 MPH!
Hell, I'd drive that road at 60 or 70 MPH and the hell with the cops!

To find a piece of road that nice around here is almost imposible.
Where did they hide the potholes? And that view is great!

In any case, if you were 6 over, either KPH or MPH 98% of cops here would
ignore it and write it off as speedometer error.

I got nothing done today; thunderstorms and darkness most of the day, and no electric for many hours. Drat! I have to get the bike fixed!

[OldNTired]

Not really....They're usually the ones that shoot past me while I'm at the speed limit.

Another example of cash gathering.......... Quite often, on the approach to a roundabout (in a 50 K/hr zone) there'll be a single 40 k/hr sign, about ½ mile before the roundabout. If anyone should miss that single sign, then woe betide them, because the police wait (in hiding) at the roundabouts for anyone approaching at 50 k/hr, so they can jump out and fine them.

Yes, something that seems to be common around the world. Down South in the USA they are known to put the signs behind bushes and such and wait for tourists.

[OldNTired]

There is one danger that I can see. You may fall asleep from boredom and hit a light pole. In all honesty that section of road could be a 70 or 80 kph easily with a reduced limit for any curves.

Agreed! Around here, without a sign stating a lower speed, it would
automatically be a 50 or 55 MPH limit. It'd the kind of road that I
would probably drive at 60 to 70 MPH. OK, well, if the bike was running I would! :)

[alantf]

I am a little confused. You say you were going 50 KPH, but them said 6 MPH over the limit! Please be consistent

No....You asked me what the speed limit was, so I said 50k/hr. I said I was 6 mph over the limit to make mph easier for you to understand than k/hr. :)

[Water Warrior 2]

I am a little confused. You say you were going 50 KPH, but them said 6 MPH over the limit! Please be consistent

No....You asked me what the speed limit was, so I said 50k/hr. I said I was 6 mph over the limit to make mph easier for you to understand than k/hr. :)
Yup, we do have an international crowd here. I grew up with miles etc and then had to learn to think Metric. It is a more accurate system in most cases but I still find myself mentally converting KPH to MPH so I know how fast I am really going. Yeah, stuck in the Past, listening to the Beatles and luvin it.

[alantf]

I still find myself mentally converting KPH to MPH so I know how fast I am really going.

:plus1:

[Water Warrior 2]

:cuss: :curse: I still find myself mentally converting KPH to MPH so I know how fast I am really going.

:plus1:
And then us lucky folks in the GWN had an Imperial system of measurement too. Bigger gallons, more quarts and ounces of fluid in oddball sized container compared to the rest of the world. At one time my job involved converting many chemical weights and measures from Imperial to Metric. Of course a lot of the chemicals came in from the U.S. Tadaa, enter the conversion calculator. The change over period from Imperial meaure to Metric was a living *ell. Metric measurement did prove to be far more accurate at work when all was said and done.
That said, I will never never never be able to wrap my head around liters per 100 kilometers when figuring fuel consumption. I want miles per gallon. I want Imperial measure and I want it now dang it. :cuss:

[OldNTired]

I am a little confused. You say you were going 50 KPH, but them said 6 MPH over the limit! Please be consistent

No....You asked me what the speed limit was, so I said 50k/hr. I said I was 6 mph over the limit to make mph easier for you to understand than k/hr. :)

I see! Thanks. Things are not looking good here, more later.

[OldNTired]

:cuss: :curse: [quote="Water Warrior":2qg0ln1u] I still find myself mentally converting KPH to MPH so I know how fast I am really going.

:plus1:
And then us lucky folks in the GWN had an Imperial system of measurement too. Bigger gallons, more quarts and ounces of fluid in oddball sized container compared to the rest of the world. At one time my job involved converting many chemical weights and measures from Imperial to Metric. Of course a lot of the chemicals came in from the U.S. Tadaa, enter the conversion calculator. The change over period from Imperial meaure to Metric was a living *ell. Metric measurement did prove to be far more accurate at work when all was said and done.
That said, I will never never never be able to wrap my head around liters per 100 kilometers when figuring fuel consumption. I want miles per gallon. I want Imperial measure and I want it now dang it. :cuss:[/quote:2qg0ln1u]

I remember wayyy back when I was in High School, 50 years ago, when 'they' were trying to convert us 'Yanks' to
the Metric system. They'd have had better luck trying to teach us to speak and write in Greek.
At work I used 8 programming languages, 4 different number systems, and a few special languages for special applications, but I still can't get a grip on the Metric system.
Things took a bad turn here today, more later.

[OldNTired]

Well, it started out as a great day - sun shining, 81 degrees, NO RAIN! And time to work.

It went bad quickly. I grabbed some tools, prepped the bike so I could check the valve clearances, grabbed the guages to do it - and - I leaned over and saw that the valve stem adjusting nuts were missing! So are the valve stems. The manual warned not to over-tighten
them, so I tightened them but I guess not enough. I can't find the nuts, they must have dropped below the rockers. As for the valve stems, I guess they are in the cylinder.
I still have some hope, depending on the piston clearance. The engine in my
Karmann Ghia once swallowed a 10mm 1/2 inch long bolt and lived, because there was
enough clearance.
I guess I better hit the manual and learn how to remove the head.
Oh well, the weather is still beautiful today! Even if everything else went to hell.

[Water Warrior 2]

Oh my, not good news. Look on the bright side if possible. A new learning experience and a How To with pics for the rest of us.

[OldNTired]

Oh my, not good news. Look on the bright side if possible. A new learning experience and a How To with pics for the rest of us.

I'll try, but no guarantees. The only camera I have is old, low pixel,
and doesn't produce very good pics.
I read the manual, and the job seems time consuming. Also, the manual
skips a lot of the work that will have to be done. Or maybe it was covered
in another section that I skipped over. :)
Before I even get to the head, I need to figure out a quick way to get the
carb and intake out of the way.
Tomorrow, hopefully, I'll get started.
If I hit any snags I'll probably start a new thread, I think most folks are ignoring this one because we got off track a bit.
Thanks to you and Alan for the help.

[Water Warrior 2]

You can do it. There are a few members with the knowledge and experience to give you lots of helpful hints. Just take your time and think your moves through before doing anything. The one saving grace is the GZ is a single cylinder and not a multi with a lot more parts to deal with.

[OldNTired]

You can do it. There are a few members with the knowledge and experience to give you lots of helpful hints. Just take your time and think your moves through before doing anything. The one saving grace is the GZ is a single cylinder and not a multi with a lot more parts to deal with.

Thanks, friend, for the vote of confidence.
Yes, I've done harder things in my life many times,
but I was a lot younger, stronger, and healthier.
Well, nothing ventured - nothing gained,
no guts - no glory,
hell, it's not running now - what have I got to lose?
Did I leave any out? :)
I'll be starting on it tonight.

[Water Warrior 2]

Younger, stronger and healthier will always be trumped by Old Guy Syndrome.
One of my brilliant revelations after decades of frustration with odd jobs was to plan it out in my mind. This included having all the tools and odds an ends in place. Estimated the time frame and then multiplied by 5. Oddly enough a 75 minute oil change can be enjoyable with a can of Coke and a smoke.
Take your time and work in good light with a few breaks. Being hunched over a bike in the dark is no fun.

[OldNTired]

Younger, stronger and healthier will always be trumped by Old Guy Syndrome.
One of my brilliant revelations after decades of frustration with odd jobs was to plan it out in my mind. This included having all the tools and odds an ends in place. Estimated the time frame and then multiplied by 5. Oddly enough a 75 minute oil change can be enjoyable with a can of Coke and a smoke.
Take your time and work in good light with a few breaks. Being hunched over a bike in the dark is no fun.


That sounds pretty much like the way I try to do things.
As much as I would like the bike to be done(yesterday!) I know that
it's gonna tale a lot longer than I would like it to.
It is better, though, to take ones time and do it right, hopefully the first time,
than to have to do it over.
Plus, there is a lot of damage to fix after those storms, and more to come
later this week, but I'm going to put off as much as I can
so I can get some work done on the bike.

I started searching the archives, but so far haven't found a writeup on
removing the head. I'll keep looking but am not going to wait on a hope
before I start working on it.

[Water Warrior 2]

To take ones time and do it right. :lol: Yeah, you don't want to have to confess you found 6 ways not to do it.

[OldNTired]

To take ones time and do it right. :lol: Yeah, you don't want to have to confess you found 6 ways not to do it.


Good day, bad day. Woke up with more pain than usual, took some 'stuff' and went back to sleep. Woke up, while drinking a pot of coffee read the few threads left from my search and found a gold mine! Someone else replaced their cyl head and did a great job documenting it. Read post while drinking coffee, and started getting all tools together that I'd need (had to run out and get a torque wrench, my old one doesn't go down to 7 ft/lbs).
More pain, more drugs, more coffee, and started wrenching.
Soon had all bolts out but one - the one you can't get out with the engine in the frame!
Tried to take off the cover, forgetting that the thing was still bolted to the frame.
Have to get a new mallet, guess my son 'borrowed' mine. Found out while trying to get
the thing out.
Tomorrows job! :) Been in a kind of fog all day.
And then hope tomorrow is better. Steady progress.

[Water Warrior 2]

Sounds like you are off to a pretty good start.

Paint the handles of some of your tools pink. They will always come back or never leave at all.

[OldNTired]

Sounds like you are off to a pretty good start.

Paint the handles of some of your tools pink. They will always come back or never leave at all.

A lot of his are painted. Don't misunderstand, he rarely takes the tools with him. He has an inability to remember where they belong. He'll take a tool from 'box a', fourth drawer, and return it to ???. And then he forgets where he put it, and sometimes forgets that he used it at all.

[Water Warrior 2]

Sounds like you are off to a pretty good start.

Paint the handles of some of your tools pink. They will always come back or never leave at all.

A lot of his are painted. Don't misunderstand, he rarely takes the tools with him. He has an inability to remember where they belong. He'll take a tool from 'box a', fourth drawer, and return it to ???. And then he forgets where he put it, and sometimes forgets that he used it at all.
A place for everything and everything in it's place. Easy to say but hard to accomplish.

[OldNTired]

[quote="Water Warrior":30bpnx3r]Sounds like you are off to a pretty good start.

Paint the handles of some of your tools pink. They will always come back or never leave at all.

A lot of his are painted. Don't misunderstand, he rarely takes the tools with him. He has an inability to remember where they belong. He'll take a tool from 'box a', fourth drawer, and return it to ???. And then he forgets where he put it, and sometimes forgets that he used it at all.
A place for everything and everything in it's place. Easy to say but hard to accomplish.[/quote:30bpnx3r]

Progress today, but also a BIG screwup.
I got the head cover off. What a damn fight getting clearance to get it out!
But, it is out.
Found a piece of one stem between the springs.
But where I screwed up is in removing the bolts. As always, I loosened all bolts,
then went along putting them in a Baggy so they don't get lost.
What I didn't notice was that they are different lengths! And the manual
neither tells you anywhere, or let you know which lengths go where.
Stupid on my part. Guess I'll have to guess where they belong,
unless when I get replacement parts I'll see if the dealership can (will?)
help me out. Couldn't find anything in the archives here.

[Maggie]

Progress today, but also a BIG screwup.
I got the head cover off. What a damn fight getting clearance to get it out!
But, it is out.
Found a piece of one stem between the springs.
But where I screwed up is in removing the bolts. As always, I loosened all bolts,
then went along putting them in a Baggy so they don't get lost.
What I didn't notice was that they are different lengths! And the manual
neither tells you anywhere, or let you know which lengths go where.
Stupid on my part. Guess I'll have to guess where they belong,
unless when I get replacement parts I'll see if the dealership can (will?)
help me out. Couldn't find anything in the archives here.

I thought I was in the same hot water when I removed the clutch cover (despite having read the warning on an excellent post about it) and didn't note which size bolt went where. However, the parts microfiche you can download here showed me where each different bolt should go. Whew! Thanks GZ forum! First, for all the great posts on how to do stuff and then all the encouragement. I do have a "mistakes made" post I need to write about that repair though...UGH! :retard:

[OldNTired]

Progress today, but also a BIG screwup.
I got the head cover off. What a damn fight getting clearance to get it out!
But, it is out.
Found a piece of one stem between the springs.
But where I screwed up is in removing the bolts. As always, I loosened all bolts,
then went along putting them in a Baggy so they don't get lost.
What I didn't notice was that they are different lengths! And the manual
neither tells you anywhere, or let you know which lengths go where.
Stupid on my part. Guess I'll have to guess where they belong,
unless when I get replacement parts I'll see if the dealership can (will?)
help me out. Couldn't find anything in the archives here.

I thought I was in the same hot water when I removed the clutch cover (despite having read the warning on an excellent post about it) and didn't note which size bolt went where. However, the parts microfiche you can download here showed me where each different bolt should go. Whew! Thanks GZ forum! First, for all the great posts on how to do stuff and then all the encouragement. I do have a "mistakes made" post I need to write about that repair though...UGH! :retard:

Thanks, I'll try that. I always use the parts fiche from the dealer, but the one they have doesn't show where the different lengths go. I shows where 'a' bolt goes, but doesn't show the length that goes there.

[OldNTired]

Progress today, but also a BIG screwup.
I got the head cover off. What a damn fight getting clearance to get it out!
But, it is out.
Found a piece of one stem between the springs.
But where I screwed up is in removing the bolts. As always, I loosened all bolts,
then went along putting them in a Baggy so they don't get lost.
What I didn't notice was that they are different lengths! And the manual
neither tells you anywhere, or let you know which lengths go where.
Stupid on my part. Guess I'll have to guess where they belong,
unless when I get replacement parts I'll see if the dealership can (will?)
help me out. Couldn't find anything in the archives here.

I thought I was in the same hot water when I removed the clutch cover (despite having read the warning on an excellent post about it) and didn't note which size bolt went where. However, the parts microfiche you can download here showed me where each different bolt should go. Whew! Thanks GZ forum! First, for all the great posts on how to do stuff and then all the encouragement. I do have a "mistakes made" post I need to write about that repair though...UGH! :retard:

Well, thanks for the 'try', but that fiche doesn't list the lengths either.

[Water Warrior 2]

Is it possible to just use a zip tie to determine the depth of the bolt holes and then compare the bolt lengths?

[jonathan180iq]

I was going to suggest something along those lines.

I know it's hindsight and doesn't need to be said, but because manufacturers just love making bolts 1,000 different lengths, I always carry a spare piece of cardboard outside with me when I'm working on something new or taking something apart for the first time. Just punch the bolts/screws whatever into the cardboard and make yourself a note for orientation.

http://tech.bareasschoppers.com/wp-content/image_gallery/tech/clutch/clutch_install/cardboard.jpg

I used to just lay things out in proper order on a table. But I'm really bad about turning around when I'm in a hurry and knocking or bumping something and throwing that all out of whack.

[OldNTired]

Is it possible to just use a zip tie to determine the depth of the bolt holes and then compare the bolt lengths?

I never thought of that! Either zip ties or those bamboo skewers you use on the grill,
they wouldn't bend as easily.
Thanks. I'll try it this evening.

[OldNTired]

I was going to suggest something along those lines.

I know it's hindsight and doesn't need to be said, but because manufacturers just love making bolts 1,000 different lengths, I always carry a spare piece of cardboard outside with me when I'm working on something new or taking something apart for the first time. Just punch the bolts/screws whatever into the cardboard and make yourself a note for orientation.

http://tech.bareasschoppers.com/wp-content/image_gallery/tech/clutch/clutch_install/cardboard.jpg

I used to just lay things out in proper order on a table. But I'm really bad about turning around when I'm in a hurry and knocking or bumping something and throwing that all out of whack.

That's a great idea, I used to do that myself, a long time ago.
Sometimes age brings you wisdom, but sometimes makes you forget
some of the things that helped so much in tthe past.
Thanks, I'll start doing that again.

[OldNTired]

Is it possible to just use a zip tie to determine the depth of the bolt holes and then compare the bolt lengths?


Not much to report. Had to clean up a bit after the storms, neighbor was worried his kid would get hurt by tree that got knocked over.

So, I had enough time to lock pushrod for the cam chain tension adjuster, then spent a few minutes trying to understand what they meant by 'remove the 'cam chain tension adjuster'!
The image is so poor that you can't tell if it is the smaller piece or the bigger piece that that one sits in. I decided to go for the larger of the two (held by two hex-key bolts.
Then I found out that I no longer have any Metric hex-keys. And by then it was too late to drive to a hardware or tool store.
Unless, of course, someone tells me that I am about to remove the wrong piece! :)

[OldNTired]

Well, to make a short story even shorter:
Got the Metric hex keys on Friday, finished the job shortly after.
Ordering parts, gaskets, sealers on Monday.
Should only take an hour or two to have the bike running after they come in.
Thanks for all the info, help, advice, and laughs.

[Water Warrior 2]

Sounds great. You must be a far better mechanic than I will ever be.

[OldNTired]

Sounds great. You must be a far better mechanic than I will ever be.

I doubt it.
But, I do learn quickly when others help.
And I learned something when ordering the parts I need. With bolts, the length of the bolt is
part of the part number! Look at the last three digits of the bolt part number,
ignore the last digit. The two digits BEFORE the last are the length. Or so they say. I'll verify that when I reassemble.
The parts won't be in until the end of the week.

[Water Warrior 2]

Sounds great. You must be a far better mechanic than I will ever be.

I doubt it.
But, I do learn quickly when others help.
And I learned something when ordering the parts I need. With bolts, the length of the bolt is
part of the part number! Look at the last three digits of the bolt part number,
ignore the last digit. The two digits BEFORE the last are the length. Or so they say. I'll verify that when I reassemble.
The parts won't be in until the end of the week.
Surprise surprise, a new bit of info to file away. Thanks for mentioning it. That would be the length in millimeters of course ?????

[OldNTired]

[quote="Water Warrior":1vld5pnb]Sounds great. You must be a far better mechanic than I will ever be.

I doubt it.
But, I do learn quickly when others help.
And I learned something when ordering the parts I need. With bolts, the length of the bolt is
part of the part number! Look at the last three digits of the bolt part number,
ignore the last digit. The two digits BEFORE the last are the length. Or so they say. I'll verify that when I reassemble.
The parts won't be in until the end of the week.
Surprise surprise, a new bit of info to file away. Thanks for mentioning it. That would be the length in millimeters of course ?????[/quote:1vld5pnb]

Yep, I think. I'm still not 'up' on Metric, but MM sounds right. And, I noticed that bolts longer than two digits in length are specified as to length in the service manual. Noticed one of the bolts I had to remove had the length (120) in parenthesis.

[Water Warrior 2]

120 mm looks close to 4.7 inches on my little ruler.

[Water Warrior 2]

Just tried this. Google "Metric conversion charts". Everything you always wanted to know and a bucket load of stuff you would rather forget.

[alantf]

Afraid you'll have to learn metric. EVERYTHING on the GZ is metric. Lengths, volumes, weights. The whole caboodle. Afraid that America seems to be the only place in the world that hasn't converted. Now I'm used to it, it seems a lot easier. I remember, years ago, as well as bolt length there was the pitch to consider. BA, BSF, BSW, AF, etc, etc, etc. Now, with metric, the pitch is the same for any given diameter, so all I need in my nut & bolt box is a selection of lengths, and I know they're gonna fit. :2tup:

[OldNTired]

Just tried this. Google "Metric conversion charts". Everything you always wanted to know and a bucket load of stuff you would rather forget.


Well, I never 'really' wanted to learn anything about Metric,
but as the days pass it seems that I NEED to learn about it! :)
Thanks, I'll try that out.

[OldNTired]

Afraid you'll have to learn metric. EVERYTHING on the GZ is metric. Lengths, volumes, weights. The whole caboodle. Afraid that America seems to be the only place in the world that hasn't converted. Now I'm used to it, it seems a lot easier. I remember, years ago, as well as bolt length there was the pitch to consider. BA, BSF, BSW, AF, etc, etc, etc. Now, with metric, the pitch is the same for any given diameter, so all I need in my nut & bolt box is a selection of lengths, and I know they're gonna fit. :2tup:

I should have learned a long time ago. One car is German, the other a newer American that uses almost all Metric. I was in the service before they started measuring distances
in kilometers, we still used feet, yards, miles, etc.
But, there is more to a bolt than just length; there is strength (torque), head diameter, shaft diameter, etc. I will admit that not having to worry about the thread pitch saves a lot
of time and hassle. Few things are more frustrating when looking in my 'junk' bin
for a nut or bolt I need than finding one that would fit except for the pitch!
Damn, guess I'll be going back to school in my sixties, trying to learn Metric! :)

One other thing to mention about the GZ. When I ordered the parts I tried to get some
'Suzuki Bond 1215'. Not only didn't they have it, they claimed they never heard of it!
They told me to use 'Tri Bond', which I never heard of. I think I'll use Permatex Hylomar.
They've always given me a good product.

[Road_Clam]

Just tried this. Google "Metric conversion charts". Everything you always wanted to know and a bucket load of stuff you would rather forget.


Well, I never 'really' wanted to learn anything about Metric,
but as the days pass it seems that I NEED to learn about it! :)
Thanks, I'll try that out.

Even my hardcore "american Iron" Harley is a mixed bag of SAE, and Metric fasteners. Harley likes to remove all the "metric" designations from the heads of bolts to fool old skool Harley owners into thinking "my Harley is 100% American" .

[OldNTired]

[quote="Water Warrior":19q9loxe]Just tried this. Google "Metric conversion charts". Everything you always wanted to know and a bucket load of stuff you would rather forget.


Well, I never 'really' wanted to learn anything about Metric,
but as the days pass it seems that I NEED to learn about it! :)
Thanks, I'll try that out.

Even my hardcore "american Iron" Harley is a mixed bag of SAE, and Metric fasteners. Harley likes to remove all the "metric" designations from the heads of bolts to fool old skool Harley owners into thinking "my Harley is 100% American" .[/quote:19q9loxe]

Sheesh! I've heard that they are making some of them in India these days.
But as far as the mixed bag of Metric and SAE, my last two cars (Caddy and Chrysler) have used both. Still waiting for parts, and I'm supposed to help two of my kids this weekend. Oh well,
we're supposed to have bad weather this weekend anyway so I guess there is no rush.

[raul10141964]

in america the only thing not metric is the mine of the people

[alantf]

in america the only thing not metric is the mine of the people

???????????? :??: :??: :??:

[Water Warrior 2]

in america the only thing not metric is the "mind" of the people

???????????? :??: :??: :??:

I can relate to that. I fought the Metric system until I was forced to use it on the job. After getting familiar and practicing the Metric system it is actually a great system. Think of it as being bilingual with numbers.

[OldNTired]

in america the only thing not metric is the "mind" of the people

???????????? :??: :??: :??:

I can relate to that. I fought the Metric system until I was forced to use it on the job. After getting familiar and practicing the Metric system it is actually a great system. Think of it as being bilingual with numbers.

No, not the same. I can 'speak' in four different number syatems, and in eight computer languages, but with Metric I can't add 2mm and 2mm and get 4km! :)

Hey, maybe he meant 'the mime' of the people? :)

[Water Warrior 2]

2mm+2mm=4km. I can't do that either. You may have just invented a whole new system. :lol:
Hmm. it is just about 1 A.M. Nice quiet night for a drive. Maybe go log some miles in my Metric truck with a 7-11 coffee for company. I'll put 340 ml of coffee in my 12 fluid ounce cup. Imperial ounces of course. Canadian eh.

[OldNTired]

2mm+2mm=4km. I can't do that either. You may have just invented a whole new system. :lol:
Hmm. it is just about 1 A.M. Nice quiet night for a drive. Maybe go log some miles in my Metric truck with a 7-11 coffee for company. I'll put 340 ml of coffee in my 12 fluid ounce cup. Imperial ounces of course. Canadian eh.

I thought Canadians only drank beer!?!? :)

And I could have used one earlier this evening, or maybe a whole case.
After helping the kids, I decided that since I didn't have parts, but did have
1/2 hour (what's THAT in Metric?) I would work on the cyl head - what us old-timers called 'porting and relieving. The only reason I pulled the head in the first place was to find a tappet screw and nut that were missing. I had found the nut after pulling off the head cover, but
I was afraid the screw had, broken or not, been sucked into the cylinder. I was
worried that it would mess up a valve, or scrape the piston or cyl walls, or drop into the engine case and jam the timing chain.
So, while turning the head around, grinder in hand, smoothing the ports, what did see
INSIDE one of the valve springs??? Yes! The tappet adjusting screw!
After a few minutes with a very small pry bar and the worlds longest and thinnest pair of
needle-nose pliers I had it in my hand.
Yes, it was beat up, chewed up by 'something', but all in one part. If I had seen it earlier I would not have had to pull the head. But, it was impossible to see looking down at it because of the spring.
Oh well, at least now I don't have to worry about finding it, or worse yet just a piece of it!
And after I am done with the grinder my ports will be smooth and shiny!
Gonna take your advice WW, and just take my time and enjoy it.

[Water Warrior 2]

30 minutes in Metric. Hmm, don't know if there is an answer. But it is 7.5 degrees as the earth turns on it's axis.

Loose parts. Glad to hear you made a major find. Could have been ugly if you missed the adjustment nut only to hear something go bang after all the work.

[OldNTired]

30 minutes in Metric. Hmm, don't know if there is an answer. But it is 7.5 degrees as the earth turns on it's axis.

Loose parts. Glad to hear you made a major find. Could have been ugly if you missed the adjustment nut only to hear something go bang after all the work.

No, not the nut - the tappet ajustment screw! How that thing got inside the spring I'll never figure out. Not even if I spent 380 degrees as the earth turns on its axis.
Except for finally getting the parts, the rest of the day sucked. I spent a little time finishing up the ports, then got a call from my doc. It seems that I must not have studied enough for one of my tests so I was 'ordered' to go to the hospital immediately and retake them. Hopefully I can start reasssembly tomorrow. I should have been done with this already.

[OldNTired]

30 minutes in Metric. Hmm, don't know if there is an answer. But it is 7.5 degrees as the earth turns on it's axis.

Loose parts. Glad to hear you made a major find. Could have been ugly if you missed the adjustment nut only to hear something go bang after all the work.

No, not the nut - the tappet ajustment screw! How that thing got inside the spring I'll never figure out. Not even if I spent 380 degrees as the earth turns on its axis.
Except for finally getting the parts, the rest of the day sucked. I spent a little time finishing up the ports, then got a call from my doc. It seems that I must not have studied enough for one of my tests so I was 'ordered' to go to the hospital immediately and retake them. Hopefully I can start reasssembly tomorrow. I should have been done with this already.

Well, they finally threw me out yesterday. Told me that they were tired of me screwing up their machines and chasing the nurses. Was too tired after getting home, so this afternoon I picked up where I left off (after finding all my tools and such) and dug in.
Took about 1.5 to 2 hours total, including cleanup and setting the valves.
It runs beautifully!!! Sounds better than a Swiss watch, and runs just as smooth.
And, no leaks.
Thanks to everyone who offered advice and encouragement.

[Water Warrior 2]

Sounds like a clean bill of health. Good to hear.
Smoother than a Swiss watch.............you gotta be kidding. Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Just don't tell me it runs as smooth as my 650 Vstrom. That would have to a total outright fabrication/halucination.

[OldNTired]

Sounds like a clean bill of health. Good to hear.
Smoother than a Swiss watch.............you gotta be kidding. Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Just don't tell me it runs as smooth as my 650 Vstrom. That would have to a total outright fabrication/halucination.

And I'll take your word for that. :)
But honestly, this is the best I've ever heard it or driven it.

[Water Warrior 2]

OldNTired. You obviously know the business end of your tools and take care to do the job correctly. A big :2tup: getting er back on the road.

[OldNTired]

OldNTired. You obviously know the business end of your tools and take care to do the job correctly. A big :2tup: getting er back on the road.

Thanks, my friend, but the truth is that any fool that's been around as long as I have had to pick up a little along the road. Besides, I had the manual, a writeup from someone else that did it in the past, and the advice of folks like you. How could it not have ended up fine?
Took it for a LOOONG ride today, smiling for 60 miles. :)

Now, someday I have to learn metric!

[Water Warrior 2]

You are already learning metric. You own and wrench a GZ.

[OldNTired]

You are already learning metric. You own and wrench a GZ.

That doesn't help. I've had and worked on a Karmann Ghia for about 14 years, hasn't helped a bit. I'll just use a converter when I need to find out something. :)