Back again....

[DieHardBigRaw]

Hey friends, back again. it looks like I am having an ongoing issue here. I went for a nice long ride today on some back country roads, about a 1.5 hours in, I was stopping at a stoplight on my way home and my GZ backfired and died. Naturally I assumed out of fuel, but that didn't make any sense as I only had 100 miles on this tank. I open the tank and its still half full, check my lights and nothing. So the battery died obviously, but I dont know why the battery died. I know I am new to riding, but I would assume that the GZ (even though its a small bike) doesn't run strictly on the battery, I imagine that would drain the battery rather quickly. Thanks for any input on this guys, I am hoping to get riding again soon... :??:

[alantf]

Backfire? Not necessarilly an electrical issue. How did you get home? What tests have you done? Do lights light up? etc, etc, etc. Give us the full info, then we can start helping you. :)

[DieHardBigRaw]

I haven't done any test as of yet, I had just gotten home and then had some errands to run. I know though that the battery will charge up, but as of right now I haven't plugged it in. But after the backfire and it dying, I had no lights, not even a clicking sound like it wanted to turn over. I will plug it in and let the battery charge, what test should I be running after that though? Thanks.

[DieHardBigRaw]

How did I get it home? I parked it on the side of the road, called my wife to bring my truck and put in the bed, and drove the truck. It is currently still sitting in the bed of the truck.

[PimpS]

similar to my story... I'll propably check my battery on tuesday...

[DieHardBigRaw]

ok, more to add. The battery is less than a month old, so I pretty positive thats not the issue, especially since it didn't die on a short ride. Anyway, I pulled the bike off the truck and hooked the battery up to my 1Amp Charger for a few hours. I then it started it and decided to take a short drive to see how charging it worked. I made it about 1.5 miles, before I noticed a loss in power, by 2 miles, it stalled, died and backfired. I had a friend come jump me (car off of course) and I made it halfway home before needing another jump (car off) and then the bike died as I pulled into the driveway.

[DieHardBigRaw]

by 'loss in power' I mean that it felt like a let off the throttle entirely. It did this about 2-3 times before it died. If noone has any ideas, then I will probably schedule a diagnostic with the dealer, but am trying to avoid the outrageous cost and time of that (every dealer here says its a 2 week delay and I have to leave the bike with them until they can get to it)!

[alantf]

From what you describe, it would appear to be a charging circuit issue - new battery, ran a few miles then died. Download the manual from this site, then go to "faultfinding" in the electrical section. You didn't say whether you were ok with electrics, so keep us informed as to how you get on. Unfortunately, at this stage, there are too many things that it could be, until you've done a few tests, and eliminated a few possibilities. :)

First test - to see if it is a charging circuit issue - put the battery on the bike & connect it up. start the bike. Put your voltmeter across the battery terminals, rev up (to 4000 - 5000 revs) and see if the voltage rises. Let us know. If the voltage doesn't rise from the battery voltage (12.7v?) then it's definitely a fault on the charging circuit. :)

[jonathan180iq]

I am thinking that the popping out the exhaust that you are hearing as the bike shuts down is not actually connected to why the bike is dying. It's unrelated to the real issue but because it happens on shut down, it is confusing you and making it seem like it's something more important than it is. It's not uncommon for these bikes to give a little POP! at low idle and occasionally when shutting down. You need to run some carb cleaner and also check the condition of your air filter.

As AlanTF stated, there is more than likely a charging circuit issue somewhere. In your case, and where it varies from PimpS's, is that your issues sounds more like a faulty/intermittent connection, and not necessarily a bad battery. That being said however, simply because your battery is only a month old does not mean that it is good.

Now that you have it off the bike and charging, remove the charger and test the voltage. Wait a couple of hours and then do it again. If you're willing, drive it down the local auto parts store and have it tested, just to be sure. To test the charging circuit on the bike, get it running and test the voltage across the terminals.

When you connect the leads to the terminals for the first time, with the key out and the bike completely off, do you get any arcing? If you do, then there is probably a wire shorting out somewhere, which could be your culprit.

[Road_Clam]

by 'loss in power' I mean that it felt like a let off the throttle entirely. It did this about 2-3 times before it died. If noone has any ideas, then I will probably schedule a diagnostic with the dealer, but am trying to avoid the outrageous cost and time of that (every dealer here says its a 2 week delay and I have to leave the bike with them until they can get to it)!

Your exact issue is getting to be a very common issue. This very question has been asked many times. Research, read and test :

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5879 (http://www.gz250bike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5879)

[DieHardBigRaw]

Road_Clam, Thanks for that thread, I will definitely run that test and give you guys an update today!

[DieHardBigRaw]

ok, some quick tests done at lunch today on the battery. I tested the battery with key out of the ignition at 13.2V, with the key in the ignition and turned to run (but not started) at 12.5V and finally with the engine running and revved to appx 4-5000 RPMS at 12.1V - 12.3V. So it appears that I have a charging system issue, as I suspected a long time ago. Since motorcycles dont have alternators, I am guessing its either the stator or regulator. I will do my best to check those and get back to you guys. I am NOT well versed on electronics so it may took few tries to get some accurate readings. Thanks guys, and I hope to have another update for you all in a few hours!

[PimpS]

It really looks my situation is similar, DieHard, you explained your incidents with loss of throttle, like I should... Keep us posted what have you discovered...

[alantf]

[attachment=0:2iyvupdz]position of gz voltage regulator (Nº10).jpg[/attachment:2iyvupdz][attachment=1:2iyvupdz]img071.jpg[/attachment:2iyvupdz][attachment=2:2iyvupdz]img042.jpg[/attachment:2iyvupdz][attachment=3:2iyvupdz]img036.jpg[/attachment:2iyvupdz][attachment=4:2iyvupdz]gz voltage regulator.jpg[/attachment:2iyvupdz] Since motorcycles dont have alternators, I am guessing its either the stator or regulator.

Stop right there..........Oh yes they do!!!!! You obviously haven't read the manual. Most modern vehicles have an alternator, simply because it's the most efficient method of producing electricity. Rectifiers then convert it to single phase dc, with a regulator to maintain the charging voltage. As you haven't read the manual, I'm enclosing some drawings.

[Water Warrior 2]

Alantf to the rescue. What would we do without a retired electrician on the forum? Not knocking the rest of the guys but an electrical guru is a real bonus.

[DieHardBigRaw]

Here is a picture of the multimeter I have, which setting do I need to use to test the regulator/rectifier? I drew an arrow to the one I tried, but nothing showed on the screen. Thanks guys, electrical is defintely not my thing, not even close! :??:

[Road_Clam]

Here is a picture of the multimeter I have, which setting do I need to use to test the regulator/rectifier? I drew an arrow to the one I tried, but nothing showed on the screen. Thanks guys, electrical is defintely not my thing, not even close! :??:

It's easier and more conclusive if you test the stator like I suggested, for that test set you meter to DCV 250

[DieHardBigRaw]

yeah, sorry, stator, so much reading, everything is running together, thanks for the clarification. and I have DCV 200 and DCV 500, is either ok? Thanks

[OldNTired]

yeah, sorry, stator, so much reading, everything is running together, thanks for the clarification. and I have DCV 200 and DCV 500, is either ok? Thanks


NO. NO!!!
Check the output of the stator with the meter set for AC voltage!
The output of the rectifier is checked using DC voltage!
A good stator should put out AT LEAST 60 VAC.
Set your meter at 200 or 250 VAC to test this.
And the bike must be running!
Remember to test between ALL THREE leads.
Also check the stator for grounds. It is covered in the manual.
For this test, make sure the bike is NOT running!!!

The output of the rectifier should be at least 12.3 volts DC.
If the RPMs are at about 3000 or higher, you voltage
can go up to over 13.7 volts DC.
Set your meter at (can't see your pic now) 20 volts DC.
As you were told before, read the manual!!!
I have those pages burned into my memory...

[Road_Clam]

yeah, sorry, stator, so much reading, everything is running together, thanks for the clarification. and I have DCV 200 and DCV 500, is either ok? Thanks


NO. NO!!!
Check the output of the stator with the meter set for AC voltage!
The output of the rectifier is checked using DC voltage!
A good stator should put out AT LEAST 60 VAC.
Set your meter at 200 or 250 VAC to test this.
And the bike must be running!
Remember to test between ALL THREE leads.
Also check the stator for grounds. It is covered in the manual.
For this test, make sure the bike is NOT running!!!

The output of the rectifier should be at least 12.3 volts DC.
If the RPMs are at about 3000 or higher, you voltage
can go up to over 13.7 volts DC.
Set your meter at (can't see your pic now) 20 volts DC.
As you were told before, read the manual!!!
I have those pages burned into my memory...

OK I need further explanation. To have AC you first need INPUT voltage, then the inputted voltage is transformed to varying output voltage. A stator only has output voltage therefore it's considered DC ? Do I have this comment incorrect ? I'm no expert on the specifics of AC to DC conversions on a charge system so get me on the same page as you :2tup:

[alantf]

The 3 phase alternator produces ac. The rectifier unit converts the 3 phase ac to single phase dc, which feeds the battery. The silicon control rectifiers control the dc to the battery, so there can be no over voltage.

What's with this "stator"? No such thing on an alternator. They only existed on the old fashioned dynamos that went out 50 years ago. Sorry, but you're clouding the issue with incorrect advice. :)

Check the drawings that I've included (above) & you should be able to follow the circuit.

[DieHardBigRaw]

The manual specifically mentions a Stator Coil as part of the charging system. I find no reference to an alternator. I think that there is a language barrier disconnect and we are all referring to the same thing. Either way, the manual on page 6-8 is less than helpful in telling me which wire gets the positive and negative and how (what order) to test 3 lead wires with only a positive and negative cables for my tester? Just don't want to fry my tester or get inaccurate results. Sorry for so many questions, but I really illiterate on all things electric, I can 'wrench' with the best of them, but am all thumbs when it comes to electrical work. Thanks again!

[alantf]

[attachment=0:33excw6s]img081.jpg[/attachment:33excw6s]

I've just checked the manual, & they're referring to the stationary part of the alternator as the "stator". I made my earlier comments, because it is a term that is usually used on dc generators, where the stator carries the field coils. Oh well....I've put up a picture from the manual, showing the tests. The bits with the ? sign are the various places to do the resistance tests. The bits with the V signs are the places to do the voltage tests. The manual tells you what the results should be. This is the test to prove the alternator. If everything's ok, then the next steps will be to test the rectifier system, then the voltage regulator system. But let's do one thing at a time. Test the alternator, then let us know the results. :2tup:

BTW, forgot to mention that you do each test in turn, with the 2 leads on your tester. For the resistance test, it doesn't matter which way round the leads are. It doesn't really matter on the voltage test either. All that'll happen is that you may get a minus sign in front of the reading. Just ignore it. It's the reading that matters. So, to recap.....you're testing between each pair of terminals (1 to 2, 2 to 3, 1 to 3) (then each terminal to ground on the resistance test). :2tup:

[alantf]

The manual specifically mentions a Stator Coil as part of the charging system. I find no reference to an alternator. I think that there is a language barrier

:oops: I agree. Sorry Road_Clam. :yes:

[jonathan180iq]

6 of one. 1/2 dozen of the other.

Terminology aside, (Stator, alternator, generator...) we are all referring to the same thing; The-Thing-That-Generates-Electricity-While-The-Motor-Is-Running.

TTTGEWTMIR

Let's just call it the GEWTMIR. (Geut-meer)