Front vs Rear Braking

[minieggroll]

Hello,

I just started riding and was wondering under what circumstances to use front vs rear brake. Should I always apply both when braking or use one for slower braking? My MSF course isn't until April 21st so I've gotta learn on my own at this point :/

Thanks for the help!

[Gz Rider]

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[blaine]

Braking is a tricky issue. Everything I've seen says to apply both evenly. Some people like to use only the front brake because if it wears out, it's easier to repair yourself. One problem (of many) that arises with that strategy is you might forget to use your rear brake in an emergency. Also, locking up (skidding) the front wheel is much more likely to cause a loss of control (crash) than the rear. Really though, you don't want to lock up either wheel and using both evenly is part of a strategy to avoid that.

When you are going slow & maneuvering,be sure to use you rear brake ONLY.If you use your front brake in this situation you will dump the bike.Also using the rear brake lightly helps to stabilize & control the bike when moving slowly.
:) :cool:

[Water Warrior 2]

That is great advice minieggroll. Get reading and you will soon know all about the brakes and when to use them. By the time you take the course you will have a much better understanding of bike control and what not to do in some situations. The GZ is a very forgiving bike but it does need some cooperation from the rider. Learn your part of the equation, the GZ knows it's part already.

[mole2]

Just a quick note. If you should lock up your front brake release it immediately. You greatly risk high siding if you keep your front brake locked. If you lock up your rear brake leave it locked. Slow maneuvers should be the rear brake only. Get in the habit of rear only on slow riding. Hitting your front brake while moving slow and hitting sand will take you down fast. Don't use your front brake with the wheel turned. You are instructing the motorcycle to go down if you do that. When in a curve straighten the front wheel BEFORE braking or you'll high side. Use both brakes when braking from speed.

A final note. The bike will only do what you tell it to do...even if it's the wrong thing to do.


:)

[Gz Rider]

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[blaine]

I've never seen (or experienced) this issue of rear braking on slow turns as Mole2 and Blaine describe. Is this technique in Proficient Motorcycling or another source?


Question:
Why do I have problems making U-turns? I've taken the MSF course and I know about head and eyes, but I still can't seem to turn my bike without duck walking it around a U-turn.

Answer
Though you've taken the MSF course and they've told you about head and eyes, the friction zone and using the rear brake, they haven't told you how to apply those techniques properly. Here's the U-turn drill. Assuming you're going to make a left hand U-turn. Decide exactly where you are going to start your turn, put your foot on the rear brake, get in the friction zone, dip your bike to the right so that your front tire is heading towards the right side of the edge of the street. As soon as you reach that point, turn your HEAD AND EYES as far as you can to the left. Never, ever look at the opposite edge of the road where you don't want the bike to go. The further you lean the bike, the tighter the turn you can make. There is no production bike I know of that cannot make a turn in less than 24 feet. In the deepest part of the lean, bring the revs up a little, slip the clutch a little more and put a little more pressure on the rear brake. All the time, keeping your head and eyes focused on where you want the bike to go. Think of how an owl turns his head completely around, that's what you should look like when executing a U-turn properly.


A lot of times you will see riders going through parking lots slowly with their feet down for balance.If you use your rear brake & the friction zone of your clutch,you can move much slower with your feet on the pegs & maintain your balance,control & dignity.
:) :2tup:

[Gz Rider]

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[blaine]

That quote seems to be from Jerry Palladino, is that correct?


Yes,It is. :cool: :2tup:


This may explain it better for some:


With the motorcycle in the friction zone, keep your foot on the rear brake and feather it as the bike starts to move. By doing this you are making the motorcycle think it's going faster than it is. When you apply power and keep your foot on the rear brake, it keeps the motorcycle from falling over at low speeds which is where most people have a problem. I've never heard of anyone having problems balancing their motorcycle at 50 or 60mph. If you don't use these techniques at 5 or 10mph the motorcycle feels clumsy and wants to fall over on it's side. AVOID using the front brake at all costs when riding at parking lot speeds, as applying the front brake at 5 or 10mph with the handle bars turned even slightly, will pull you to the ground like a magnet. Of course, once above parking lot speeds, you must use the front brake as well as the rear brake, as 70% of your braking power comes from the front brake.

Avoid dragging your feet along the ground as this tends to upset the balance of the motorcycle, and of course, if your feet are dragging on the ground you cannot have your foot on the brake. As soon as you start to move your bike from a complete stop, both feet should automatically come up to the floor boards or pegs and your right foot should be feathering the rear brake. Once you master these three simple techniques, you will be amazed at the tight maneuvers your bike can perform. You'll know you've gotten it right when you can make full lock turns in both directions at 5mph with the pegs or boards scraping a perfect circle in the pavement.
:) :cool:

[Water Warrior 2]

I've never seen (or experienced) this issue of rear braking on slow turns as Mole2 and Blaine describe. Is this technique in Proficient Motorcycling or another source?
Using the rear brake in slow manuevers and U turns help to stabilize the bike and prevents unwanted extra speed. Used in conjunction with the friction zone you can move around at slow speed for quite some distance/time. You can read all about it in Proficient Motorcycling. David Hough has some detailed explanations for slow riding and great info about the front end geometry that dumps you on your butt if you use the front brake while riding slow.


In a high speed situation on a curve you can depend on the front brake more than the rear. The rear is more likely to lock up and step out to the side than the front. You won't fall using the front because both wheels turning act like gyros and want to stay upright. You can use both brakes but keep in mind the weight will transfer to the front and unload the rear traction with a better chance of rear lock up. The whole process is a learning curve and confidence in understanding the forces involved in riding. I kept learning small tidbits after 50+ years of 2 wheeling. My steepest and most gratifying learning curve was in 2007 at a riding course with Lynda after we decided I was not a good instructor for her. My Vstrom was a lot easier to ride after that course. Most riding courses draw their info from David Hough's writings. Read it, practice it and above all take the course.

[alantf]

When I took the English motorcycle test, the examiners asked questions after the practical test. Two questions they always asked were "which brake do you use for a normal stop", and "why". The answers they expected were "the front brake, slightly before the back brake", and "because if you use the back brake first, you stand a chance that the drag may cause a skid". Experience has shown this to be correct, with the exception that when going slowly (walking pace) with the bars turned, if you use the front brake, the bike will definitely go down. So this is the one & only time to use only the back brake. :)

[jonathan180iq]

There are also times when, in mid turn, at speed, that you'll want to use the rear brake to shave just a few mph off of your current rate. You do this to keep from throwing off the current suspension load and possibly losing your line when you are deep into the lean.
This, however, is something to worry about as you start riding a little bit faster.

To answer your original question, the front brake is the main brake. You'll brake with the front probably 80 percent of the time. To lessen the load placed on the front brake parts, since you'll use it to often, I generally always use the rear as well, when in a straight line or when I just want to shave a few mph off, as mentioned above. And when in traffic, just to keep my mind fresh, I'll try using the rear brake on its own, just to make sure I have a feel for how much pressure is required to come a full and complete stop.

[Gz Rider]

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[Water Warrior 2]

All that said, I've heard many stories of people dumping bikes during the course.
Also might be the fact that most are newbies and watching the front wheel rather than looking up and looking where they want to go.

[minieggroll]

I did get a copy of Proficient Motorcycling and have been slowly reading it. lol It's been really cold here but I've still managed to take the bike out for half hour to one hour rides about once a week to practice.

What is dumping a bike? I have used to front brake on the bike when it is going at very slow speeds with no issues. Would this apply mainly to bigger bikes?

[JWR]

I did get a copy of Proficient Motorcycling and have been slowly reading it. lol It's been really cold here but I've still managed to take the bike out for half hour to one hour rides about once a week to practice.

What is dumping a bike? I have used to front brake on the bike when it is going at very slow speeds with no issues. Would this apply mainly to bigger bikes?


They are talking about dropping the bike in a slow speed turn and using the front brake too much.

[Water Warrior 2]

I did get a copy of Proficient Motorcycling and have been slowly reading it. lol It's been really cold here but I've still managed to take the bike out for half hour to one hour rides about once a week to practice.

What is dumping a bike? I have used to front brake on the bike when it is going at very slow speeds with no issues. Would this apply mainly to bigger bikes?
Applies to all bikes. When you get to the section about bike geometry and steering you will understand a lot better. Rear brake only for slow speeds or gravity will get your attention real fast. It is easier to fall at slow speeds compared to higher speeds.

[Gz Rider]

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[PimpS]

I don't understand something: when you are talking about the course, you mean a process during you learn the traffic rules, make theory exam, doing practical skills driving the streets and slow practise (driving 8's, stopping the bike from 40km/h, slalom drive, fast slalom drive...) and at the end is a final test which if it is approved by a judge who was watching you and gave you questions about knowing bike and special road situations, and if positive you get your motorcycle license?

Or by course you mean a course which usually lasts for 1 weekend, after you got your motorcycle license, which is good for you to take (not necessarily) just to improve your motorcycle skills? This course we call in Slovenija Training of safe driving, and it is recommended, like said, not obligatory.

thanks for answering, cause sometimes i don't fully understand when thinking of licensed driver, newbie licensed driver or just newbie not licensed driver...

[Gz Rider]

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[Water Warrior 2]

A training course is an excellant idea no matter who you are. Newbies who have never ridden will benefit the most and develop their skills very well. Old guys like me waited 50 years and had a bit harder time of it overall. We first have to unlearn the bad and unsafe habits we had been using for decades. Then we start to learn the proper way to safely ride and operate the bike.
Depending where you live will probably determine what is required to earn your bike license. In North America individual states have different requirements and the Canadian provinces are a close second.
Whatever you do for meeting the government requirements always remember there is no excuse for risking your life by not taking advantage of every bit of knowledge available to you. Reading, parking lot practice and understanding how the bike operates is all part of it. Be Smart Be Safe.

[mole2]

One thing that may be going on here is the GZ250 is so light that these techniques may not be as needed as they are on heavier bikes. If these techniques were required, I would have dumped my bike hundreds of times in the last 17,000 miles. I've never had as much as a skid (well once-about 1/2 inch on some pine needles :) )

I could see it as a ratio of rider size and muscle vs. bike weight and wheel base. The course, I imagine, is prepping you to ride any bike.

All that said, I've heard many stories of people dumping bikes during the course.

It's called luck. I'd rather be skilled. The Laws of Motorcycle Physics says slow speed + turned wheel + front brake = dump. Been there, done that and don't need to do it again.


:)

[5th_bike]

I don't understand something: when you are talking about the course, you mean a process during you learn the traffic rules, make theory exam, doing practical skills driving the streets and slow practise (driving 8's, stopping the bike from 40km/h, slalom drive, fast slalom drive...) and at the end is a final test which if it is approved by a judge who was watching you and gave you questions about knowing bike and special road situations, and if positive you get your motorcycle license?

Or by course you mean a course which usually lasts for 1 weekend, after you got your motorcycle license, which is good for you to take (not necessarily) just to improve your motorcycle skills? This course we call in Slovenija Training of safe driving, and it is recommended, like said, not obligatory.

thanks for answering, cause sometimes i don't fully understand when thinking of licensed driver, newbie licensed driver or just newbie not licensed driver...
The USA Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF) course is two nights of about 3 hours instruction each, followed by a theory exam, and two days of about six hours each on a parking lot with special road markings to indicate practice curves/turns etc. where two instructors teach the class (about 10 people, each with their school-supplied small motorcycle) how to start, turn, brake, switch gears, etc. - practice riding.
After you successfully pass the practical tests as well, you get an MSF certificate. Then, you take the MSF certificate to the Motor Vehicle Administration (MVA) of your state to get an "M" added to your driver's license. Then, you are legal to ride.

The MSF course is also not obligatory. The alternative is the "learner's permit" mentioned above, in that case you can get a learner's permit at the MVA and then at any time when you feel confident enough, you can take the theory and pratical exams at the MVA, and after you pass you get an "M"" on your license.

The MSF also has courses for advanced riders, where you take your own bike, at other times but at the same location.

Then, "newbie" has no legal meaning or anything, it means either someone who has just started riding or someone who has joined this forum and made less than 10 or so posts.

[PimpS]

Ok, thanks a lot!

[greatmaul]

I've never seen (or experienced) this issue of rear braking on slow turns as Mole2 and Blaine describe. Is this technique in Proficient Motorcycling or another source?

One way I like to look at this concept is looking at those racing bicycles on the velodrome. They move extremely slowly, and often come to complete stops on the bike, feet on the pedals, with the brake engaged and pushing down on the pedals. It just stands the bike up.

If you haven't seen this try to youtube a velodrome race. They'll stand there like that for long periods of time, and then suddenly one of them will bust out and start riding like crazy and the race is on. It's some kind of tactical thing, but on a motorcycle, using the back brake with the motor engaged, you can often slow to a standstill at a stoplight without putting your foot down at all.

[greatmaul]

Also, in the courses, they say to always (except in a very slow speed turn) use both brakes, and that's mainly to avoid the bad habit that people get in of just relying on one brake or the other. That can work in many situations, but when you have to stop *now* you'll want to have that reflex of using both of the brakes because the bike *will* stop quicker that way.

(even though, as stated before, 75-100% of the braking can end up on the front wheel due to the weight of the bike shifting forward during deceleration)

[Water Warrior 2]

As greatmaul says you can come to a stop without putting your foot down. This is a practiced method of stopping and also a good one. You have both feet at the foot controls for the longest time possible. That is where they should be just in case you suddenly need to make a quick exit in case another vehicle wants your space. You should be able to just put your "left" foot down as you come to a stop while your right foot stays on the rear brake to hold the bike stationary. You should have also just finished shifting down into 1st gear before dropping your left foot. That way the bike is stable and balanced. Both hands are ready for the forward movement.
Another reason for the rear brake only when stopped is a safety factor. Just in case you get nudged or bumped from behind the bike will be the most stable. The bike may get moved forward a bit but you can hold it up. If you have the front brake applied you will probably drop it and you may get hurt in the process. The forces involved are basically the same ones that come into play when using the front brake for very slow riding. The bike can be easily upset and down you go.
Riding is a serious endeavor and good safe habits need to be developed to make riding and safety an automatic action. It is better to learn safe habits first so you don't have to unlearn them at a later date.

[mrlmd1]

Another way to think of it is that the front brake is used for scrubbing off most of the speed, the rear brake is for fine tuning and stopping, or once you get to slower speeds. You have to know when and how to use both.

[Water Warrior 2]

Another way to think of it is that the front brake is used for scrubbing off most of the speed, the rear brake is for fine tuning and stopping, or once you get to slower speeds. You have to know when and how to use both.
Simple and to the point. big +

[Road_Clam]

There are a few standard and important "good" habits to exercise, such as downshifting approaching a normal stop. This allows engine braking to scrub off speed at a controlled rate. Braking shouls ALWAYS be performed with the bike vertical. I only use the rear brakes as an aid in helping to come to a more abrupt stop (or riding 2up). I personally do not keep my feet on the pegs until the very last stopping point. I favor the "walk" method for the last 5 feet or so. It's also VERY important to keep and eye in the mirrors for an approaching car from behind. Always keep your bike IN GEAR while stopped and allow yourself at least 10 ft of space from the car in front of you as this will allow a quick left or right exit if you are in fact seeing an approaching car at high speeds (Ie possibly getting rear ended). The only reason I tend to "walk" my bike to a stop is to ensure balance and secure footing when actually coming to a stop. I've seen so many riders come rolling to an "imbalanced" stop, and abruptly drop the bike on it's side. One can argue against my walk method, but it's worked perfect and secure for me for over 25 years.... so again to each his own..

[Water Warrior 2]

You have a far greater chance of experiencing an imbalanced stop using the front brake as your final stopping mechanism. The rear brake makes the stop a much smoother controlled stop. just sayin.