Learning to corner

[greatmaul]

I've been riding for only about a month or so, and I think that cornering finally clicked for me. I live in the foothills, so the first (and last) 30 minutes or so of my commute is done in the "twisties." I've read the books, lots of them, watched the videos, and taken the BRC, but I still never felt comfortable cornering.

Then, 2 nights ago, it finally clicked. I finally decided I was just going to go for it. It wasn't a fast curve, only about 20 or 30, but I'd always had trouble with it, fighting the bars and having to cut the throttle and 50 pence the line. This time, I just shifted my weight over, leaned completely with (not against) the bike, relaxed my outside arm and let my legs hold me up, and I carved right though it.

I was totally surprised. This was one of a few curves I'd never negotiated well, and the bike cut through it like it was nothing. Of course, I did just replace the original 12 year old hard, cracked tires with new Pirelli Sport Demon front and Route 66 rear, so that might have had something to do with it, as well.

All the rest of the curves that night were like butter, with the only scary part being the tightest curve, I'd guess about 145 degrees or so, I was cutting through it and the heel of my boot scraped on the pavement. That was kind of a worry, and when I got home, I looked up the "10 steps to proper cornering," in Total Control (Lee Parks) and sure enough, rule #1 is reposition your foot, so it doesn't stick out and get caught on the ground, maybe causing a crash.

Anyways, probably everyone knows that, but it was a new thing for me. I tend to keep my feet a bit wide of the engine because my pants leg rode up once and my ankle was hugging the engine casing for a second before I realized it was hot.

[JWR]

Yes, the heels will touch down first on the GZ.

[attachment=0:1onft3c5]dragon.jpg[/attachment:1onft3c5]

[greatmaul]

cool pic! I didn't realize that our feet were that close to the ground :\

[alanmcorcoran]

Cornering (or, turning) tends to improve on its own over time. Although there is leaning involved, and, at slower speeds, you might benefit from weight shifting, about 99% of it is simple counter steering. Because counter steering is, well, counter-intuitive, for some of us (like me) it takes a bit of time before it comes naturally. It took me about a year (5-6K mi.) until I really improved. I generally found that time was more of a factor than thinking or studying it.

There is some value in practicing your entrance and exit lines (See Hough, etc.) and maintaining throttle all the way through the curve (Keith Code) (http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Basic ... 0965045021 (http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Basics-High-Performance-Motorcycle/dp/0965045021)) to keep the suspension under tension. I practiced this a lot when I was on a long tour and it elevated my ability and reduced my "stress" when hitting extended gnarly sections.

I think the important thing is to be patient and not force the issue. Running off the road is the number two cause of MC fatality after getting hit by left turners. I think this happens because beginners try to keep up with experienced riders and panic when the bike goes wide.

If you like reading, Proficient Motorcycling is a nice quality book with lots of tips and illustrations and the Keith Code "twist" link I put above has some more advanced tips - aimed at racers but very applicable to touring the twisties as well.

[Water Warrior 2]

Nice to hear about your new riding experience in the twisties. Kinda light a light coming on isn't it. :rawk: :rawk: You will find the GZ is a fine mount for having a fun time on a curvy road. A lot of folks have trouble with counter steering and leaning their bodies because of an inborn fear of falling. But once they have experienced the right way to corner without fear of falling the ride takes on a whole new meaning. Oh yeah, makes you grin from ear to ear. Just be careful not to get overconfident. Don't push the envelope or you will soon do something regretable. Take baby steps rather than trying to learn it all at once.

[Rookie Rider]

This is something i need to practice for sure. I'll be honest, its scary

[JWR]

If there is something in the road, do not look at it, look where you want to go.

Practice going straight, then push the bars left then right, this will give you a good feel of the bike moving under you.

[Water Warrior 2]

If there is something in the road, do not look at it, look where you want to go.

Practice going straight, then push the bars left then right, this will give you a good feel of the bike moving under you.
Yup, push left go left. Push right go right. Find a vacant industrial area or school parking lot after hours to practice.

[greatmaul]

This is something i need to practice for sure. I'll be honest, its scary

There is an element of trust, that's for sure, when it comes to cornering. I've read quite a few books, but 2 which focus on cornering are "A Twist of the Wrist II" by Keith Code, and "Total Control" by Lee Parks, both of whom are top quality road race teachers and riders. One of the things they stress is that a good rider doesn't make the bike better, they simply help their bikes to work correctly.

Twist II, I especially recommend, because Code focuses on seven specific "Survival Reactions," which are instinctive moves most people perform on a bike when they panic, and shows how they actually cause more problems than they solve.

Both books really point out how proper cornering isn't just faster, but is actually safer, conserving the most traction, and maintaining the most stable suspension geometry possible.

[mole2]

If there is something in the road, do not look at it, look where you want to go.

Practice going straight, then push the bars left then right, this will give you a good feel of the bike moving under you.
Yup, push left go left. Push right go right. Find a vacant industrial area or school parking lot after hours to practice.

I think the pic below shows how countersteering works. The rider is leaning right and pushing right so the front wheel is slightly to the left. To me it's a natural thing as it would be awkward to either push left or pull right while leaning to the right.

http://image.motorcyclistonline.com/f/33697700+w750+st0/122-1110-01-o+2011-bmw-k1600gtl-in-action+.jpg


:)

[varangianknight]

Thanks to alanmcorcoran for re-assuring me that taking it slow and going at my own pace is all right, it may piss off a few drivers who want to go 10kph faster, but i'll get there alive! Im new to motorbikes but have ridden a pushy for the last twenty years (never owned a car) so i like to think that some of the BASIC principles of riding a bike (motor and push!) are somewhat in grained, please let me if im wrong or there are any major differneces. The thing im having trouble with is adjusting my range. Coming into a corner i still tend to look to down the road about 30 feet. too close i know! But what IS the right range? The faster you go into a corner do you look further ahead? Does the radius of the turn matter ie the tighter it is, do you need to look closer. Also where i live ther are some REALLY crappy road surfaces, so how do you look ahead and in front of you for leaves and slippery bits of road that tend to spring up on you no matter how well prepared you are. Im guessing ill learn most of this by trial and error, (more trial than error i hope), but any advice would be appreciated. Thanks

[JWR]

"A Twist of the Wrist II" by Keith Code, and "Total Control" by Lee Parks,

These two books are a lot cheaper than 1 accident.

These guys draw pictures and can explain where your field of vision should be far better than anyone on this board can.

[Water Warrior 2]

"A Twist of the Wrist II" by Keith Code, and "Total Control" by Lee Parks,

These two books are a lot cheaper than 1 accident.

These guys draw pictures and can explain where your field of vision should be far better than anyone on this board can.
Oh yeah, go with the professionals on this issue. Your field of vision is important for a safe confident ride on any surface. Learning from the experience of others and applying their techniques will really develop your skills on 2 wheels.

[PimpS]

just my two cents, it is also very important, that your head stays in narrow position, not with the angle of your bike or your body, it gives you better perception of the road and controlled balance.

O= head
II= torso

O (straight driving)
II

O (going into curve)
//

It is nicely seen on the pic that Mole2 posted...

I hope you get my drift... ;)

[PimpS]

JWR, your pic is awesome, i'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOO oops, don't know how to say it in english... It's SOOO HARD FOR ME TO WAIT TO SIT ON MY BIKE AND GO EASYRIDIN!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!


ps:don't worry, i'll go on training site first... ;) but still........AAAAAAA........!!!

[JWR]

This is a pretty good look at counter steering and looking at where you are going.




[attachment=0:3prhojtg]pc3.jpg[/attachment:3prhojtg]

[Water Warrior 2]

Your head should be vertical, not tilted. You retain better balance. Keeping your head up allows you to have a better field of vision especially when cornering in town or on the highway.

[dentheman]

I also have a problem cornering. I had to retest a couple times on cornering to pass the MSF course on a GZ. I am just a little concerned with leaning too far on my 500+ lb Shadow. Thanks for your post, I will try it.

[Water Warrior 2]

Cornering can be a hoot once you learn the basics and fine tune your skills. You must always have trust in your bike too. It doesn't want to fall down anymore than you do. Low speed cornering is a little more of a work out with mind and body because the wheels no longer act as gyroscopes to keep you upright. It is all about training and practice. Training gives you the tools and practice gives you the skill to negotiate almost any surface short of a flowing lava bed which is not recommended. :lol:

[dentheman]

Cornering can be a hoot once you learn the basics and fine tune your skills. You must always have trust in your bike too. It doesn't want to fall down anymore than you do. Low speed cornering is a little more of a work out with mind and body because the wheels no longer act as gyroscopes to keep you upright. It is all about training and practice. Training gives you the tools and practice gives you the skill to negotiate almost any surface short of a flowing lava bed which is not recommended. :lol:
You are right about the bike not wanting to fall. I realize that at a stop sign I am supporting little weight with my feet on the ground; the bike is balanced, so its weight is not a factor, being supported by the tires with my feet alternately supporting perhaps just a few pounds to keep the bike upright. And when moving, the bike seems to correct for my minor mistakes. The problem is not with the bike, but with my confidence. But I see my confidence improving with each ride. I know cornering is my biggest problem, and where I will practice most. I took a couple bad falls when cornering on leaves/wet/gravel at high speed on my road bicycle in past years and that is in my subconscious; I will get over it. I also think much of the problem was the Shadow wasn't running right while I was trying to learn, sometimes she would hesitate when I got on the throttle in a turn and she lacked power overall, so I was afraid she would fail me at the wrong time. Now that she is fixed, I see my confidence building with each ride. Someone mentioned an 'element of trust' earlier in this thread, now I am learning to trust her, before I didn't.

[Water Warrior 2]

For sure an ill running bike would mess with your confidence when cornering. A low speed 90 degree corner would be very frightening if the engine even had a hiccup at the wrong moment.
Please allow me to correct a habit you have. You stated shifting your weight from one foot to the other while stopped. Your weight should be on your left foot with the right foot on the brake. If you get bumped from behind you have less chance of going down with just rear brake applied. Both hands should be in a go position just in case you have to get out of Dodge in a hurry. This is taught in riding lessons for good reason.

[dentheman]

Thanks for the reminder, now I do recall it from class. I have been using the front brake when at a stop.

[Water Warrior 2]

Thanks for the reminder, now I do recall it from class. I have been using the front brake when at a stop.
I did the same thing for decades. It wasn't until I was taught the proper way by an instructor in 2007. Suddenly my Vstrom became a lot easier to ride and handle in low speed situations. I always liked the responsiveness of the front brake but the final stop was a bit upsetting to the balance of the bike when the front end dropped a bit and then rebounded. I found with a little practice that the rear brake lets the bike come to a gentle stop and the left foot down is an automatic movement now.

[mrlmd1]

Not to be overly critical, just adding advice and some knowledge (?).

In those 2 pics posted by JWR, the body position is wrong. If you look at the pics, the rider's weight is pushing the bike down, into a higher lean angle than is necessary, as he is trying to maintain a more upright body position.
The correct approach would be for the rider's body on the bike to be more over to the inside of the turn, maybe sliding a butt check over, shoulder towards the inside handlebar, leaning over more, putting more of his weight to the inside of the turn, keeping the bike in a more upright position which means better traction on the road.The body should be leaning, head upright, causing the bike to lean less = better traction, higher speed through the turn. Check out some pics of riders racing - no need for knee down, just body weight to the inside, don't try to or fight to stay upright, that is wrong. And look where you want to go, not down on the road. Look down = go down.

[Water Warrior 2]

Good catch on the riding position. You are absolutely correct. I am or at least was a prime example of trying to keep my body upright in curves. I finally saw the light and started to lean my body into the curve with some almost startling results. The Vstrom will turn in so much more that the usual speed I was going was far too slow. Learning curve here we come. I spent a few afternoons on my favorite set of known twisties just practicing the body weight shift and gained a lot of confidence in my ability and buckets more confidence in the bike itself. Just leaning forward to the inside mirror on a curve will shift a lot of weight and plant the bike very well on the road surface. Now what I need is a GZ on the same twisties. Lynda always liked the GZ for it's cornering ability while just tilting her head to stay upright and keeping her body inline with the bike. Had she started shifting her weight on some of the back roads I very well might have been playing catch up a lot. The GZ could probably out manuever the Vstrom with aggressive riding. It's not just a case of more power but the total ability of each bike.
A good example of cornering and weight shifting made me giggle a bunch. I was playing cat and mouse with a fellow rider(Kevin) on a 600 sport bike. I was the slow fat cat in the straight but caught up to him in every curve and sometimes passed him when there were 2 lanes and lots of room. My practicing was paying off while Kevin had only learned how to go fast in a straight line. Kevin never did learn to corner well and a few of us were relieved when he stopped riding a bike and bought a quad to play with.