Start Up Problem

[longumd]

Hello friends,

I recently got a problem with starting, as per seen from the old post, I might need to check the carb thing. Anyway I would like to specify my problem and hopfully you guys might have some suggestions.

It is a 2003 GZ, 6000 miles. Got it this May and ran with no problem during the summer, except the charging voltage is a little bit low(13.2V). I charge my battery every two weeks, so it was fine. I always use choke when staring. My bike was just park outside and after series of heavy rains last month, I cannot start my bike at all. I changed the spark plug and clean the air filter last week. I got my battery fully charged last night (~12.8V). This morning when I tried to start the bike, the engine would die soon if I only press the start button for 2-3 seconds. Finally after I tried to keep pressing start button for ~5 seconds, the bike starts and runs as well. I rode it this morning for ~4 miles. Tonight when I try to start it, same problem, engine would die soon if I only press the start button for 2-3 seconds. Tried 3 times to start then the battery is drained.

Thanks in advance for all your suggestions.

[5th_bike]

Sounds like you need a new battery. By the way, 4 miles is not enough to replenish the power it uses to start. You need about half an hour of riding for that.

Don't forget to charge your new battery after you put the acid in it.

[Gz Rider]

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[longumd]

I feel that this person has a problem other than the battery. His battery was sufficient to crank for 5 seconds several times and he still had a problem starting the bike.

The battery may infact need replacement as evidenced by his need to charge it every two weeks (although this could be from not riding enough) and the age of the bike but he clearly has another problem.

Thanks. I felt battery might not be the only problem also. I measured the voltage this morning, it is 12.3 V? So, 12.8 V yesterday morning, then 6-7 times tried to start, left 12.3 V this morning. I will definitely take the battery to a local shop and test it. It was made in 09/2009, if it is truly bad, I will replace it.

I'm planning to do a 6000 mile maintenance recently. Since I've changed the spark plug and cleaned the air filter. All left on the manual are oil change, oil filter change, fuel hose replacement, brake hose and brake oil replacement. Other than these, I'm not sure what should I check or replace for the my start up problem.

[blaine]

All left on the manual are oil change, oil filter change, fuel hose replacement, brake hose and brake oil replacement. Other than these, I'm not sure what should I check or replace for the my start up problem.
Your fuel or brake hose should not need replacing,unless there is visible cracking or other damage.The fuel hose is no big deal,if you want to replace it for peace of mind.The brake hose is built a lot stronger and made to last a lot longer.(think of under your car)I would flush & install new fluid.
:) :2tup:

[Gz Rider]

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[longumd]

Well, does it has anything to do with the idle speed that I set? I was play with the screw a little bit when I have trouble starting the bike. I'm not sure whether it is still on the right range or not.

[longumd]

In the manual, I see a pain of doing the carb cleaning. How long do you guys expect to remove-disassemble-clean-put it back?

[Gz Rider]

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[Gz Rider]

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[longumd]

Thanks.

Other than the tool kit come with the bike, what else do I need to have for a carb cleaning?

I'm wondering, instead of do a carb cleaning, is it going to work by just adding some Fuel Stabilizer?

[blaine]

I'm wondering, instead of do a carb cleaning, is it going to work by just adding some Fuel Stabilizer?
You can try some SeaFoam or Berrymans b12 in the fuel.It can't hurt,and may save you taking the carb off.
:) :cool:

[mrlmd1]

1.) You may have a dead battery just because you are using it to start the bike and not running it enough. Riding only 4 miles will not add any significant charge back into the battery, Letting the bike run at slow idle will not charge a battery either. At about 2500 rpm+ you should get 13.8-14.2V at the battery terminals. Do you have any idea at what rpm or how fast the engine was running when you measured 13.2V? If that's at a speed just above idle it may be normal for the charging system on your bike.
To see if the battery is any good it has to be completely charged back up to 12.8V and put on a load tester.
2.) If you do get a new battery, most likely it will be an AGM or VRLA sealed battery, even if it gets filled with acid at the battery store. Be warned -- You MUST charge it up fully to the 12.8V BEFORE you first use it or it will never hold a full charge, Don't just take a new one home and put it on the bike and use it, it will prematurely fail. Charge it anyway, even if the guy in the store tells you it's good to go and for you to just put it on the bike.
3.) You do not play with the idle adjustment knob to start the bike. The choke is used when the engine is cold or the bike has been sitting for a while.
The idle screw is adjusted to get the proper idle rpm (~1300) only after the engine has warmed up, then you do not touch it again. If the bike won't start, there is some other reason. do not keep playing with that screw adjustment once it is set.

My '99 used to start in 1-2 seconds, maybe 2 revolutions of the engine. Every time. You probably have a dirty carb so first try the stuff Blaine suggested, 1-2 oz/gal of fuel, no more than that, dumped into the tank.

Totally different question for you - your bike is a 2003, with 6000miles. If those tires are original they need to be replaced as they are 8 years old, regardless of how much tread is on them. Check the date stamp on the sidewall for a little rectangular box for the week (first 2 digits) and year (last 2 digits) of the 4 digit code in there to see if those are the original tires.

[longumd]

Thanks. I'm a student and had several mid-terms last two weeks, so did not have a chance to take care of my bike.

So I bought some Fuel System Revitalizer, get my battery charged this morning, put the revitalizer in. But this time when I push the start button, there I did not hear any rumble from the engine, it is only some croon noise, seems it comes from some electrical part. Not sure what should I check right now.

For the tires, thanks for the suggestion, I checked them when I bought the bike, front tire is about 3 years old and 1 year on the rear tire. I'm thinking of replacing the front tire next spring.

[Gz Rider]

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[mrlmd1]

You do NOT have to replace the front tire next spring. Save yourself $100.

[longumd]

1. does the head light come on when you turn the key on? Yes

2. Is the head light bright as usual or dim? As usual in the morning, but dim tonight

3. When you press the start button does the headlight stay reasonably bright or dies it almost completely die? Not completely die, but not bright at all.

So I get the battery back and charged it to full 4 hours ago then disconnect the charger. Now the voltage drops from 12.8 to 12.5~12.6, I suspect there is the problem with the battery. Recently I mostly just use the battery trying to start, maybe this kills the battery.

[Gz Rider]

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[longumd]

For the starter motor, I guess I know where it is, just on the right of the "SUZUKI" sign? But it is covered, I'm not sure how could I check it to answer your following questions.

Thanks.

[mrlmd1]

You may not be leaving the battery on the charger for a long enough time, and what you are measuring is the "surface charge" right after you take it off the charger. Charge it up again for another 4-6 hours, measure the voltage right when you are done, then again an hour later to eliminate (let dissipate) that surface charge, and measure it again the next morning. If the voltage does drop from 12.6-12.8 down a half volt or more, thee battery may not be good. What you have to do then is fully charge it again and get it load tested, which any garage or battery place or Autozone or similar will do for free.
One other thing, brought up here every once in a while - make sure when you turn your bike off you leave the key in the OFF position, not all the way over to PARK, which leaves the rear light on which will drain the battery. No one notices that light on when they walk away from the bike.
Also make sure your battery connections are clean and tight, as is the ground and connection to the starter.

[longumd]

You may not be leaving the battery on the charger for a long enough time, and what you are measuring is the "surface charge" right after you take it off the charger. Charge it up again for another 4-6 hours, measure the voltage right when you are done, then again an hour later to eliminate (let dissipate) that surface charge, and measure it again the next morning. If the voltage does drop from 12.6-12.8 down a half volt or more, thee battery may not be good. What you have to do then is fully charge it again and get it load tested, which any garage or battery place or Autozone or similar will do for free.
One other thing, brought up here every once in a while - make sure when you turn your bike off you leave the key in the OFF position, not all the way over to PARK, which leaves the rear light on which will drain the battery. No one notices that light on when they walk away from the bike.
Also make sure your battery connections are clean and tight, as is the ground and connection to the starter.

Thanks. That's exactly what I did from last night to this morning. I charged it to full( shows as 12.9V right after get charged). This morning it shows ~12.55V. I toke it to Autozone a week later, I charged the battery in the morning and get it tested at night, they told me I need to charge the battery....

For the "Park" thing, I made this mistake twice in May when I just got it. After that, I check my rear light very carefully every time I turn my bike off.

The connection seems to be fine on the battery, not quite sure about the connection to the starter.

[Gz Rider]

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[jonathan180iq]

I think you need a new battery.

But the bigger question, that I don't see answered, is "Can you start the bike right after it's charged?"
Even if you are loosing some charge over time, you should still be able to get the bike going right after you take it off the charger.

If not, you'll need a new battery plus troubleshoot what's keeping the bike from firing.

**Make sure the kickstand is up.

[longumd]

"Can you start the bike right after it's charged?"

Few weeks ago, yes, but need to press the start button more than 4 seconds

Then comes with a busy time in school, and I did not touch my bike at all then. My bike is covered whenever it is raining outside in these 2-3 weeks.

Now, no. I can hear a little bit rumble from the engine, then it's gone. If I keep pressing the start button, I could only hear some "croon". Not sure if it is the correct word to express the noise, but it sounds like the starter motor is rotating but cannot get the bike start.

I think the kickstand is up.

[jonathan180iq]

Imagine it was a car.

Does the engine "turn over" like WHIRR WHIRR WHIRR WHIRR" and just not fire to "RUMBLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEE"?
Or does it just make a WHIRR and then make a click sound and seem like nothing is happening?
If you are getting some strong WHIRR WHIRR WHIRRs, then the battery and starter aren't the problem.

Several others have diagnosed the problem, and it's most likely that you need a battery. I feel like this is where your issue is too. But to make sure that you don't have some moisture or corrosion under the starter button, you can also blast it with some WD-40.

You really a good couple of hours where you can focus on this and get it running.

In a pinch, you can boost the bike from your car using jumper cables, but just don't crank the car.
That way you will have enough battery power on tap to diagnose whether or not you have a different starting issue. I mean, you'll be able to try several different things, because the car batter will allow you time to crank the bike as much as you like.

A bike sitting out in the cold like that, with rain and stuff, takes a little extra time to crank, even with a good battery and everything working right.

You need to make sure you're doing all the basic things right, like turning the kill switch "ON" and making sure the kickstand is not down while you are trying to do this. (If the kickstand is down and the bike is in gear, it will not crank.) Choke must also be used in just about all situations.

On the chance that you do it get it running, have your helmet ready. You need to go ahead and take her for a spin to loosen everything up. Then, if you are going to winterize the bike, you can do it the right way and start from scratch.

[longumd]

Few weeks ago, it is "WHIRR WHIRR WHIRR WHIRR" then Rumble---Start

Now, it is "WHIRR" once then only left the noise I mentioned before, like start motor rotating only without touching the engine.

[longumd]

Yes I might try to jump start with my car

[jonathan180iq]

It could very well be the starter gear, but that's not a common failure on these bikes.
Give the starter a whack with a rubber mallet and see if it will engage.

[longumd]

Guess I should try to jump start it use car's battery first? If it works out then the starter gear is not the issue?

[mrlmd1]

Do not have the car engine running, just jump it from the battery.

[mrlmd1]

You do have gas in the bike right?
Do you know if it's getting to the carb?
Pull the fuel line off the carb or the bottom of the petcock, put it on PRIME and see if gas flows out.
If it does, put it on RUN and see if gas flows when you crank it, (but catch the gas in something or put another line on it into a container so you don't spill it all over the engine.).
Check to see if the vacuum hose is attached to the petcock to open the fuel flow or make sure the line is not cracked and leaking.

[jonathan180iq]

If the bike turns over strong when you crank it on good battery, then there is no possible way that you are looking for at a starter issue.
All the started does is spin the motor when you push the button. If the bike is turning over then, like I just said, no issue with starter.

And yes, I would hook it up to jump it first. My posts may seem like I am jumping ahead of myself, but I am just assuming you will try (or have already tried) the other stuff I mentioned in order first. ;)

[jonathan180iq]

You do have gas in the bike right?
Do you know if it's getting to the carb?
Pull the fuel line off the carb or the bottom of the petcock, put it on PRIME and see if gas flows out.
If it does, put it on RUN and see if gas flows when you crank it, (but catch the gas in something or put another line on it into a container so you don't spill it all over the engine.).
Check to see if the vacuum hose is attached to the petcock to open the fuel flow or make sure the line is not cracked and leaking.

This would be the next step, but after you make sure that a good charge/good battery isn't the main problem.

[longumd]

I guess this is what I'm going to do:

1. Get a new battery
2. Get some new gas in it. The tank does have gas in it, last time I fill it up was 2 month ago. Now it still have some gas but very low level. I was told by the last owner here always add #93 gas so that's what I used. I saw someone posted here saying that we should only use #87 for this GZ? So I should fill the tank with #87 this time?
3. Use the old battery when I jump start it or doing other trouble shooting so I won't mess up the new battery

[Gz Rider]

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[jonathan180iq]

93 will work. I mean, gas is gas. But it's a waste of money if you buy it long term, since these bikes can run just fine on 87.

Your list looks good.

Let us know what happens with the jump-start attempt and we can do from there.

[blaine]

Let us know what happens with the jump-start attempt and we can do from there.
Just make sure that the vehicle you are boosting from is "NOT RUNNING." :) :cool:

[Gz Rider]

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[longumd]

A PhD life is boring, I'm still sitting in my office working, well, also visiting our forum.

Your file is cool.

You have 3 sounds in the file
A: Starter spin, not engaging the engine
B: Starter engaging, but no fire
C: Normal start

What I experienced yesterday is, one second of B, then it is all A.

[Gz Rider]

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[longumd]

Jump start doesn't worked out...

Again I got my battery charged (12.7V), then tried to start just using the motorcycle battery. The same as yesterday, it is one second of B, then A....

So I got the jump start cable connected, my car is not running at all and I even did not insert my car's key in. After getting it connected, the voltage that my car's battery provided it ~12.8V. Then I press the start button more than 10 times, it is all A. I don't see my light get's dim during all these trys.

So I gave up as it's going to rain, the bike's battery is not 12.2V.

Is it an issue with my starter motor?

This reminds me the first time my bike has starting issue. It was after a really heavy rain and my bike did not get convered since I'm out of town. The following few days I attempt to start it several times, it is very similar to the situation now, one or several seconds of B, then all A. I finally got it started on a sunny day, but since then, it's a pain everytime I try to start my bike.

Could it be some parts getting wet? There are series of rains recently.

[Gz Rider]

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[Water Warrior 2]

Just a thought. The rain might have added just a bit of extra corrosion to the starter cables and/or contacts. I also agree with tapping the stater with a rubber mallet. Just don't get carried away and really whack it hard.

[5th_bike]

Another thought - corrosion at cable contacts. I don't know where the starter motor cables all exactly connect but, if you have enough voltage at the source (car battery) then somewhere in the circuit could be a bad/corroded contact that prevents the starter motor form getting enough current.

There are at least seven places where the corrosion/bad connection could be:
1) connection to the battery
2+3) two connections at the starter relay
4) one contact inside the starter relay
5+6) two connections at the fuse box
7) connection from fuse box to battery.

I don't know (and too lazy to figure it out) if the two cables from the starter are in one unit with it or it they connect at the starter motor, that would be +2.

My car once had trouble starting,5 years ago or so, all I got was clicks from the starter relay (maybe someone would be willing to to record that sound for the GZ250 [hint, hint]). It was a bad connection of the +12V at the battery itself. Cleaned it, sanded it, reconnected it - no problem to date.

edit 1: addition
edits 2-4: typos

[Gz Rider]

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[longumd]

Thank you all again.

I not sure exactly where and how I should tap the starter motor. It is covered, right? And to clean contact of the starter side, I need to remove that cover?

[longumd]

Still, I guess a new battery is a must, right?

[blaine]

Still, I guess a new battery is a must, right?
Yes,a new battery is needed.As for your starter,just tap lightly on the outer case.
:cool: :)

[alantf]

I don't know (and too lazy to figure it out) if the two cables from the starter are in one unit with it or it they connect at the starter motor, that would be +2.



Sorry,but this just comes across as gibberish to me :) You obviously know what you mean, but it's a bit unintelligible. (BTW, there's only one cable coming from the starter) Can you take a deep breath & rephrase it? :2tup:

[5th_bike]

(...there's only one cable coming from the starter) Can you take a deep breath & rephrase it? :2tup:

Oh, that means - the ground connection of the starter is the frame. And now of course I had to go into the cold garage (near freezing tonight, tomorrow there will be 10 to 15 cm of snow...) to check things out.

So the connections are (chances of a bad connection in parentheses)
1) +12V (red cable) at battery (pretty high)
2) +12V (red cable) at starter relay (low, well protected by the cap on the relay)
3+4) 20A fuse connections in the starter relay (low, take fuse out, put it back in and you should be good to go)
4) starter motor cable (black) at the starter relay (low, protected by cap)
5) starter motor cable at the starter, under the rubber cap (could be corroded)
6) connections of starter motor to engine (two of them, should be good)
7) connections of engine to frame (should be OK as well)
8) connection of black battery cable at frame (unknown, probably OK)
9) connection of black battery cable at battery (unknown)

If you have a multimeter, that would help. For instance, you could measure the resistance between the starter motor body and the black (0V) pole (the lead itself) of the battery. That should be near zero ohms, in which case no.s 6 through 9 are eliminated.

[Peachy140]

Not to confuse you or anything, Im sure all the technical advise youre getting is good, but have you tried bumping it? Its not a long term solution but should at least get your bike running.

I had trouble with mine a while back there were days i could start it with the starter and there were days when it was almost as if the battery wasnt there... then there were the days when i got really cheesed off because it started fine in the morning and got me to work without any problems then 8 hours later it refused to budge.

In any case when ever I couldnt start the bike electronically shifting it into second gear, holding in the clutch and running a few meters with it then jumping on releasing the clutch and revving the throttle a bit got me home again.

Ive had no problems getting my bike to start since doing the following:

1. Changed battery
2. Cleaned connections inside start switch casing
3. Changed spark plug
4. Cleaned Carb

[Gz Rider]

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[Peachy140]

Thanks GZ Rider, yeah youre right about the skidding and the possibility of killing the starter but seeing as there was already so much technical info coming in already I thought Id mention the one thing that no one else had brought up.

Bumping a bike down hill is definately the easiest way... however it is also possible to run with the bike on a flat. Its just a question of the right timing and getting the wheels turning fast enough for a successful bump. Ive often found that where an old battery is the culprit, riding the bike around at high revs has charged the battery sufficiently to get the starter working again. Although as I said its a way of getting the bike going until you can sort the problem, but by no means a long term solution.

[Gz Rider]

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[Peachy140]

lol I totally agree with that mate. :)

[longumd]

Hello it's me again.

I've been putting some effort today to get the bike start again, but doesn't work well.

I got a new battery last weekend but haven't tried it yet.

I uploaded a picture of how it looks like around my starter motor, lots of rust in there.

So I got my old battery charged, get it installed. It seems to be better this time, hearing a series of sound "B" as we talked before when I pressing the start button. It doesn't get my bike start though. Second time is the same thing, some sound "B" and bike doesn't start. The third time I pressed the start button I only heard some noise coming out from the white box besides the battery (picture attached). Then everytime I press the start button, it comes out with the same noise in this box. Nothing happen in the starter motor.

I also tried jump start then, it was the same thing, just some noise from the white box.

[Water Warrior 2]

Longumd, stop before you get in over your head. Actually you are already I think. You should find some one local who knows more about a bike than you do. The pic of the "starter" is actually the front sprocket and chain. Very rusty and unkept by the previous owner. You should get some hands-on help in my opinion. Not trying to discourage you but trying to keep you from doing needless work without the proper knowledge of the bike.

[alantf]

I only heard some noise coming out from the white box besides the battery (picture attached).

I also tried jump start then, it was the same thing, just some noise from the white box.

The "white box" is the starter solenoid. This should "click" when you press the starter switch, as this is what "switches" & lets power through to the starter motor. I agree with WW, that your knowledge is very limited. Not your fault :) but I reckon you need some assistance before you spend unnecessary time finding the problem by accident, if at all. :2tup:

[longumd]

Thanks guys.

I will try to get some help then.

I'm wondering do you have any suggestions on the next step? I will try to read the manual carefully.

What do you recommend to buy to clean the rust and lube the parts?

[Gz Rider]

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[longumd]

I see in the manual, if the starter motor will not run and starter relay clicks, there will be three reasons:
1.Faulty starter motor
2.Faulty starter relay
3.Loosen or disconnected starter motor lead wire

Since the starter motor runs in the first place, then stop running and only the starter relay clicks, then is it more like a connecting issue?

Thinking about my bike, it starts having problem after rains and I let it sit for 2 months. It is entirely possible the issue a some corrosion and caused a bad connection?

[alantf]

Longumd, if you want to carry on faultfinding, then the acquisition of a multimeter is a necessity. Unfortunately, if you're not sure how to use one, then a trip to the repair shop becomes the next step. :)

[longumd]

Yes I have a multimeter and knows how to use it. Also has some common tools.

I will keep on troubleshooting, this time following the manual.

I guess I need some suggestions on what to buy to clean and lube the parts.

[5th_bike]

The starter looks like a metal cylinder on its side at the front of the engine, it has one cable that connects at the top at the right side, under a black rubber cap. This (black) cable comes from the starter relay (AKA starter solenoid) in your first picture. It is the "other" thick cable, about as thick as the red cable from the battery. Please refer to my previous post as to where to measure resistance.

My son is a UMD student who lives in College Park as well and I'd go there and try help you but I never dealt with carb issues (what I think this is because it turns over and doesn't start) before so I won't be much of a help.
if you don't feel comfortable cleaning the carb yourself you could try a shop. Or maybe there is a "Terp riders" organization where you could get help.

For cleaning the chain, use kerosene. For lubing it, use motor oil. Sparingly. I use a paintbrush to clean it, over a paint tray (to protect the garage floor), paper towels to dry the kerosene off, and a paintbrush to spread some motor oil to lube it.
Don't worry about that little bit of rust on your sprocket. It will wear off with use. Remove the cover and brush some oil on it.

[Peachy140]

hmmm carb... ok heres a silly question... Have you cleaned your carb recently? If so did you put the jets back in the right way round? Yes I did say it was silly but believe it or not its happened to me before lol

Also 2 months sat out in the rain is not good for your bike mate. Im not surprised it wont start to be honest. Have you put in that new battery yet? Do that, change the spark plug and if it still doesnt work i completley agree with these guys, find a garage and get it seen to by a qualified mechanic. Be careful who you take it to and make sure theyre reputable.

[Gz Rider]

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[longumd]

Thanks again!

To 5th_bike: Appreciated, I'm a UMD student too. I'm found Terp Rider on Facebook and trying to join them.

To Peachy140: Thanks for the advices, yes the spark plug is new, I changed it last month.

I tried the new battery this morning, the bike won't start but at least the starter motor works. The new battery is charged (12.8V), after get it installed, I attempted to start. The sound coming out is "B: Starter engaging, but no combustion", I mean, endless "B" as long as I keep pressing the starter switch. So I guess the new battery works much better than the old battery even with jump start. After few attempts, the bike still does not start, then I get the battery off and measured it(~12.55V).

I guess this is the last simple attempt before doing the detail troubleshooting. From your previous reply, I see it is more like I need to do a carb clean? Seems that the starter is working, no combustion came out because the carb doesn't give out vaporized gas to the engine?

[jonathan180iq]

I feel like it's a faulty kill switch somewhere. You're just not getting spark.

The kick stand switches on these things are known for going bad. And if it sat out in the rain for a long time, it could be corroded.
To test it, put the bike in physical neutral and see if that makes a difference.

Also, make sure you're using a good bit of choke and that your handlebar kill switch is no turned off.

It should at least hit, even with bad gas or bad vacuum or any of the other things that might be wrong with it.

[longumd]

Thanks jonathan180iq

I will try to check the switches.

Sorry I'm not quite sure what do you mean by "physical neutral". I always put my bike in neutral (neutral light on), use choke and the handlebar kill switch is on.

I attached the GZ starter system description, it appears to me that if the the bike has a faulty side stand switch, then the starter motor will not run properly. Since the starter motor is running with the new battery, I guess the side stand kill switch is OK?

[jonathan180iq]

No, the starter motor will turn over, regardless. What you won't get is spark, so the bike can't fire up and drive off with the kickstand down, which could kill you.

Take come WD-40 or something similar and flick your kick stand back and forth repeatedly while spraying the contact of the switch.
then clean it off.
Do the same thing with your button kill switch.

[Gz Rider]

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[alantf]

No, the starter motor will turn over, regardless. What you won't get is spark, so the bike can't fire up and drive off with the kickstand down, which could kill you.



Sorry, but you're completely wrong..... If you look at the diagram, you'll see that the ignition switch puts power to the coil in the side stand relay. The coil operates and closes the switch if the bike is in neutral, or the side stand is up. This switch then puts power through the engine stop switch, starter button & clutch lever switch, to the coil in the starter relay. This allows power to flow to the starter motor. So if ANY of these switches is open, the starter relay will not operate. It's nothing to do with the spark.

[jonathan180iq]

Fair enough. I'm wrong.

[longumd]

jonathan180iq? Thanks for point it out anyway.

So we exclude the switch issue. I'm wondering if you guys agree with my guess on the carb? I would give the carb cleaning a try anyway this weekend and see what happens then.

[jonathan180iq]

If you're going to focus on the carb, make sure it is flowing gas, before tearing it apart.

Simply pull the main down tube (you'll loose a little dribble of gas) and then hit the starter. The vacuum created by the engine should cause gas to start flowing through the tube. Be prepared for this to happen. Catch it if you want.

If it's not, then you have a vacuum issue, which is usually a degraded hose.

If you feel like your gas is contaminated with too much water, you can always put the thing on PRI and drain it out into a container to use on your lawnmowers or something and then refill with fresh gas.

[alantf]

I'm wondering if you guys agree with my guess on the carb?

Yes, the carb is really the weak point on an otherwise good bike. Most problems seem to point to the carb. It's just a pity that Suzuki haven't made any mods to it over the years.

[longumd]

Guys, sorry to bother again.

When I was checking my bike this morning I found the bike is missing two bolts in the front frame right near the engine. I took a picture and try to find it out in the CHASSIS section of the manual, but I couldn't find any detail of this part.

I attached the picture just to make sure it is really missing the bolts here. Your bike do have bolts in here, right?

[blaine]

Yep.Motor mount frame bolt.Just go to the hardware store and get a bolt of the proper length.
:cool: :)

[5th_bike]

Or order them, it's parts no. 2 and 4 under "FRAME":
http://www.mrcycles.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=432084&category=Motorcycles&make=SUZUKI&year=2003&fveh=10117

[alantf]

I'm wondering if you guys agree with my guess on the carb?



After my last post, I realized that I should have added.............

If the starter is whirring, that shows that all the switches are working correctly. That leaves either the spark or the carb. First step is to check the plug. Remove it, reconnect the spark plug lead, & hold the plug against the engine (to get a good ground). Try starting the engine . If the starter whirrs & you see a good spark, then you can eliminate the plug (spark) as the fault, & the problem must (probably!)be with the carb. If there is no spark (or a weak spark) then you need to find out why. (possibly battery?)

There is a third possibility, but very rare, that the starter is not engaging the engine. Can you hear the engine trying to turn over?

Keep us posted, so we can update our assistance. :2tup:

[jonathan180iq]

After my last post, I realized that I should have added.............

If the starter is whirring, that shows that all the switches are working correctly. That leaves either the spark or the carb. First step is to check the plug. Remove it, reconnect the spark plug lead, & hold the plug against the engine (to get a good ground). Try starting the engine . If the starter whirrs & you see a good spark, then you can eliminate the plug (spark) as the fault, & the problem must (probably!)be with the carb. If there is no spark (or a weak spark) then you need to find out why. (possibly battery?)

There is a third possibility, but very rare, that the starter is not engaging the engine. Can you hear the engine trying to turn over?

Keep us posted, so we can update our assistance. :2tup:

Along the spark route, with that frame bolt missing, you've probably been experiencing more vibrations than normal. Check the connection of the wires at your coil to make sure they haven't backed off. (Do this after you determine whether or not it's a spark problem, as suggested above.)

[Gz Rider]

...

[longumd]

I'm wondering if you guys agree with my guess on the carb?



After my last post, I realized that I should have added.............

If the starter is whirring, that shows that all the switches are working correctly. That leaves either the spark or the carb. First step is to check the plug. Remove it, reconnect the spark plug lead, & hold the plug against the engine (to get a good ground). Try starting the engine . If the starter whirrs & you see a good spark, then you can eliminate the plug (spark) as the fault, & the problem must (probably!)be with the carb. If there is no spark (or a weak spark) then you need to find out why. (possibly battery?)

There is a third possibility, but very rare, that the starter is not engaging the engine. Can you hear the engine trying to turn over?

Keep us posted, so we can update our assistance. :2tup:


Thanks.

I didn't hear the engine trying to turn over yesterday. I changed the spark plug last month but seems I need to check it again. Sorry I'm not fully understand how to “hold the plug against the engine”....

[alantf]

Sorry I'm not fully understand how to “hold the plug against the engine”....

After removing the spark plug & re-attaching the plug lead to the end of the plug..........Hold the plug by the insulated lead, or the insulated (white porcelain) part of the plug, & touch the threaded part, firmly, to the top of the engine, somewhere where you can see the central electrode, as this is where you need to see if there's a spark or not. Keep holding it, firmly pressed (to get a good ground) while someone turns on the ignition, & in neutral, with the clutch pulled in, presses the starter. If the spark is ok you'll see it jump across from the central electrode to the inside wall of the plug.

[jonathan180iq]

Like this:

http://www.x-tremescooters.com/pocket_bikes/xp490/images/sparkplugsparking.jpg

[longumd]

OK. Thanks. Now I understand. Will do it over the weekend.

[mrlmd1]

Do not attempt to hold the plug (or the wire) unless the plug is grounded against metal, preferably on the engine block, when you try to start the engine, or you will find out why. Big zap to you.

[longumd]

A sunny and warm day today, got my battery installed in the morning and the bike just started very easily, just one click of the starter switch. I gave it a ride on highway and filled new gas also put in all the stablizer left last time. Performed an oil changed and cleaned the chain in the afternoon.

Kind of wierd, I did nothinng but the bike just recovered... Rided it several times today, it's all just 1 click of starter switch. Except late tonight, with 34 F outside, hold the starter switch for a while to get the bike start.

Another question, kind of interested what is this hose under the engine does? When I was doing the oil change, I unplug this cap by mistake and a little bit oil leaked out from this hose.

Thank you all!

[blaine]

That is the drain for the air box.It is normal for a little water & oil to drain out.Just make sure that the plug goes back in & is clamped so it can't fall out.It is a good idea to drain it every time you change the oil.Glad that your bike is running well after the problems you had.Make sure that you use your choke when the temperature gets cooler,your bike will start easier.
:) :cool:

[Gz Rider]

...

[jonathan180iq]

Awesome!
Now that she's running, get some carb cleaner and take her for a nice long jaunt to stretch the legs.
Nothing better for engines that to run.

Keep us posted.

[5th_bike]

A sunny and warm day today [...] Performed an oil changed and cleaned the chain in the afternoon.

Today (Sunday) was nice in MD too, so I went on a ride and put up a new tag in the tag-o-rama thread.

Also cleaned the chain and changed oil & filter today. I'll do the rest of the 9,000 miles service later.

[lenkf]

Example of old battery: Original battery in 2003 Explorer. Turned on the key switch to listen to a couple tracks of a CD this cold morning. When trying to start the car 15 minutes later, battery would not turn engine over - click, click, click... Battery was working fine until now but just a few minutes of playing a CD was enough to use up the remaining power in the old battery. Something similar has happened with an old battery in a motorcycle when I left the lights on. Even recharging overnight could not overcome the internal loss of power capability. At least this is a good time to get a new battery just before the cold winter begins when you need reliable battery power. We ride year-round in Cali (not meant to brag).

[Gz Rider]

...

[blaine]

The strange thing with the problem this guy was having is when he jumped it from a vehicle he said it still didn't work.
I would chalk that up to a bad connection on one of the booster cables.Some types of booster cables are near imposable to get on the posts properly of a motorcycle battery.
:) :cool:

[Gz Rider]

...

[longumd]

Some updates of today's ride

Weather: sunny, warm, 50 F

I can hear combustion happen when I press the starter switch and the bike was turning over. However, if I release the starter switch soon (1-2 sec), the bike won't turn over. What I did this morning is exactly as Saturday night--hold the starter switch for a while to keep the combustion then the bike starts.

P.S. I used choke and bike is on neutral.

I'm thinking of use charger to charge my new battery every weekend in winter, does it hurt the battery?

[jonathan180iq]

So she's not starting, again?

You need to start checking for shorts.
It could be that you have a short somewhere that is not enough to drain the battery completely but it is enough to keep the system for sparking properly and running. I mean, you have enough juice to turn the starter over and you know from riding the other day that you have a good fuel delivery system.

What's your voltage now?

Someone with more electrical experience needs to guide you through resistance testing or whatever it's called to look for shorts.

When you pull the battery terminal, and put it back on, does it arc? If it is, you have a draw somewhere that shouldn't exist. (Do this with the key out and all switches off.)

[longumd]

It starts, but I need to hold the starter switch for about 5 seconds.

Sorry for the confusion in my last post, just to be clear:
Pressing the starter switch for 1-2 seconds only, the bike trying to turn over, heard occasional hit of combustion, release the starter switch, bike didn't start.
Pressing the starter switch for ~5 seconds, the bike trying to turn over, heard occasional hit of combustion, then felt the bike turned over, release the starter switch, bike started.

I will try to record the voice starting process on my bike and upload it.

Didn't get a chance to measure the voltage this morning, will do that when I get back today.

--"When you pull the battery terminal, and put it back on, does it arc? If it is, you have a draw somewhere that shouldn't exist. (Do this with the key out and all switches off.)"

No arc.

[Gz Rider]

...

[longumd]

Some updates of today's ride

Weather: sunny, warm, 50 F

I can hear combustion happen when I press the starter switch and the bike was turning over. However, if I release the starter switch soon (1-2 sec), the bike won't turn over. What I did this morning is exactly as Saturday night--hold the starter switch for a while to keep the combustion then the bike starts.
P.S. I used choke and bike is on neutral.

I'm thinking of use charger to charge my new battery every weekend in winter, does it hurt the battery?

Your post leads me to think you do not know what combuston is. Combustion is the act of the fuel and air inside of the cylinder exploding. If that is happening, the bike is started.

''Turning" means the engine is cranking but no combustion is taking place.

"Turning over" is the engine cranking and then combusion starts. At this point the engine IS started and running.

I think instead of "turning over", you meant "trying to turn over" which is an engine cranking with an occasional hit of combustion but not a stead cycle of combustion needed to keep the engine running?

A battery can be overcharged. Look into a "trickle charger" for a motorcycle.

Yes, you got it right. I updated my last post based on your explanation, thanks.

I have a battery tender like this:
http://batterytender.com/motorcycle/bat ... 0-75a.html (http://batterytender.com/motorcycle/battery-tender-junior-12v-at-0-75a.html)

[jonathan180iq]

So it's just a little hard to start in the morning?

That's what it sounds like based on your last response.
I guess I read your last post incorrectly. (Updating based on GZs response, was a good idea.)

Hard starting is not a big deal, even with 5 seconds in there. Remember, this is only a single cylinder 250. As long as it eventually hits and purrs you life, I wouldn't start fretting yet.

If your starter is hitting and spinning when you press the button, then your starter motor and connections are OK. If it is turning over the engine and making little puffs of air come out the exhaust pipe, then your starter gear is working fine and your compression is good. Since it ran alright once you finally got it started and you have had it out on the road a couple of times now, you know that your gas flow and spark are good, if not a little weak thanks to having old gas sitting in there for a long time and still needing time to clean away some residual varnish.

I don't recall seeing how many miles are on this bike, but if it's a lot, then a little extra time needed to crank is not anything to worry about.
Sounds like the weak/failing battery was the culprit all along.

If you are going to ride the bike at all during the winter, then I would check periodic charge and take her out every chance you get. If you are really going to winterize it and store her long term, then I would just pull the battery right before you tuck her into bed, charge it up once and then check it once per month.

[Gz Rider]

...

[Water Warrior 2]

A Battery Tender is a good option for the bike and comes with some very nice wiring for a permanent hook up to the battery terminals. Smart technology too. Leave it plugged in and you will never overcharge the battery.

[longumd]

To GZ: I'm using a fuel system revitalizer, a kind of oil stabilizer. This morning the starting process is still a hard starts. After getting it starts on Saturday, I've rode it for ~20 miles.
http://www.amazon.com/Start-Your-Engine ... B001B0TCN4 (http://www.amazon.com/Start-Your-Engines-21205-Revitalizer/dp/B001B0TCN4)

To water warrior: Thanks for your suggestion. I have a battery tender but I live in an apartment. I need to take out the battery from my bike and charge it at home, 5 mins dismount the battery at night and 5 mins to mount it in the morning, not a big deal.

I will try to charge my battery ~2 times a week and ride it every sunny day to see what happens.

[mrlmd1]

You are spending a small fortune on that stuff. Put some Berryman's B12 Chemtool 1oz/gal in the gas tank maybe every 3 fillups - about $3 a can and works great to clean and keep clean carbs. Ride the bike 'till the tank is almost empty and fill up with fresh gas.

[jonathan180iq]

I agree with MrLMD1.

Anything more than modern, fresh fuel and the occasional addition of Berryman's or Seafoam is a little much. (I've recently gotten partial to Marvel Mystery Oil myself, but that's beside the point.)

And for what it's worth, you could add an inline fuel filter to keep out debris. But as long as you have fresh gas in the tank, there is no need for any kind of "revitalizer"

[Gz Rider]

...

[jonathan180iq]

After getting it starts on Saturday, I've rode it for ~20 miles.
.

You really need to take her out on a longer jaunt. Maybe tack on 50 miles or so this weekend. Just go to the next town over or whatever and buy some lunch and then come back. It'll do the bike good.

http://www.performanceboats.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130089&d=1314897020&thumb=1

[Water Warrior 2]

After getting it starts on Saturday, I've rode it for ~20 miles.
.

You really need to take her out on a longer jaunt. Maybe tack on 50 miles or so this weekend. Just go to the next town over or whatever and buy some lunch and then come back. It'll do the bike good.

http://www.performanceboats.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130089&d=1314897020&thumb=1
Doesn't everyone do that ??? :lol: :lol: Seriously though, an inline fuel filter is cheap, add some Berryman's or Seafoam when you fill up the tank and ride for your lunch. Your bike is willing and wanting a good run.