When to use the clutch...

[Nightsbane]

The single most mystifying thing about learning to ride a bike has been the clutch. I have driven a scooter for a while, and so I was leaps and bounds ahead of other riders in the MSF class in most tested areas while rolling, but when it came to shifting I was a slow learner having only driven a stick shift once or twice in my life.

I didn't get all of the info I needed in the class and so I will ask here, something I am sure I will be doing a lot the first couple weeks.

When is the proper time to use the clutch? I know gear changes use the clutch, and when coming to a stop. What I am confused about it if you should use the clutch when rolling off the throttle in a turn. I noticed on the training bike that rolling completely off the throttle and coasting and then rolling back on the throttle caused a little jerky jump at first. Is this normal/supposed to happen or am I supposed to be using the clutch? I just need to know what to do before I get to higher speeds. I want to make sure there isn't something I will do to make it jump out of my control when rolling on the throttle while driving.

Thanks for your time.

[alantf]

While I certainly know how to use the clutch, unfortunately I'm finding it impossible to put into words. However, one thing I've noticed in the handbook is that you should pull in the clutch at speeds below 15 km/hr (9 to 10 mph) While I don't find this necessary (and I'm sure the majority of other riders don't find it necessary also) it MAY help you at this early stage. :2tup:

[geezer]

you in such a dangerous point in your riding. im teaching my girl how to ride and she doensnt have the skill yet to stop at lights and signs so she will blindly taketurns etc. she almost got ran over the other day, like no shit almost killed. so i told her she would not ride again till she took her msf course. i feel like you in the same place she is on clutch control. dude this shit cannot b taught over a forum post, do yourself a favor and help you live alittle longer, go back to school or get someone good on bikes to show you the ropes.imo knowing th clutch is the most important thing on a bike

[Rionna]

I am a newbie as well. I took the MSF course and the problem is that they teach you how to shift, but not when to shift. Specifically, shifting when turning, at lights, entering a parking lot. It is a controlled environment at the class designed to prepare you to pass the proficiency test. The instructors will tell you this just gets you your endorsement, but you are by no means skilled. I say this to say that the most important advice I received from my instructors, my BF who is experienced, and other riders is to learn my bike by going to the parking lot. I go there even though I am on the street riding on long rides. It helps to reinforce the things/mistakes I learn on the street and I am safe while learning. I learned to downshift better and work my clutch better in the parking lot where I spent over an hour practicing. I also ride with an experienced rider who critiques me when I ride. I can also ask him questions as I ride. I still will not go out by myself because I recognize my limitations as a newbie. BTW I drove a stick shift for years so shifting is not new to me. In summary, go to a parking lot and practice. Get to know your bike. This is a process of skill building so be patient with yourself and be safe. :cool:

[Nightsbane]

Thanks for the advice. Geezer you misunderstand me. I am by no means out of control, and by the endof the course I was shifting just fine. I understand the friction zone and all that, I mainly just want to know two things. Is the little jerkiness when rolling back on the throttle all the way and then back on normal, and am I supposed to engage the clutch when completely letting go of the throttle and then rolling back on.

For instance, I'm rolling and I am now in second gear. I let off the throttle to go into a curve or turn. After slowing I roll onto the throttle (after not using much or any at all, coasting a bit) and go through the turn. Sometimes this caused the range bikes to be just a bit jerky when rolling back on the throttle, didn't cause any control issues, but I just wanted to know if this was normal and if I should have been using the clutch to avoid damaging anything.

That's what I need to know.

For me, the only thing I am still learning with the clutch is not killing it at least once while riding from a stop light by letting out the clutch to quickly :tongue:

[alantf]

Mine has always been jerky when shutting off the throttle, until the engine gets really hot, then the jerkiness disappears. Is this what you mean, & does it go away when the engine gets hot? :)

[Nightsbane]

I haven't had a chance to test out a bike fully on my own yet, still waiting another week to get my gz, my experience is limited to the range and test drives of other bikes. I am mainly referring to the little jolt/jerkiness I have noticed at lower gears when rolling off the throttle and coasting, and then rolling back on the throttle. I don't use the clutch when I do this, and the jolt is minor and not jarring, but I am just curious if I am supposed to be using the clutch there.

[geezer]

sorry when people ask when to use a clutch i kinda worry. :crackup my girl got on and read the post and asked "is he reall asking us how to use a clutch?" yeah i misunderstood you sorry :lol: yes the buckin and jerkin is all normal at slow speed if you off the throttle and clutch ma dude

[cayuse]

Alan, sounds like your experience is due to a reduction in compression when your engine is hot. I know when I'm in a low gear and transitioning from decel to accel on the throttle I will frequently put a little pressure on the clutch just to soften the 'jolt'.

[alantf]

This is the only bike I've ever had where this happens (been riding for over 45 years) Never heard about compression lowering with a hot engine, How does that happen? :??:

[cayuse]

I'm just guessin' Alan. I've seen 2-strokes clap out after being run way too hot. Maybe a problem with rings, cylinder expansion, or head gasket leakage.

I don't share your experience on the GZ wrt to jerkiness when the engine is hot or cold. Mine is somewhat 'jerky' in the lower gears when transitioning from throttle closing to opening and vice versa. In higher gears, especially at lower speeds it is much smoother. I think it's due to the various inertias vs. engine compression.

[geezer]

are you all talking about the slack in the drive chain? lol

[alantf]

It seems (to me) that when the engine is thoroughly hot, the idle revs rise, so when I shut off the throttle it closes to a higher revs (if you can understand what I'm trying to get at) When the engine is cool the idle revs are lower than recommended.

I know what you mean about 2 strokes! When I first came over here, all I could afford was an old Peugeot 150cc scooter with a million miles on the clock. One day, as I was going down the autopista at around 70 km/hr (the fastest it would go!) it just cut out on me. Just couldn't get it to go again, so I started pushing it along the shoulder. After half an hour of pushing I hit the start button, & it started up like there had never been a problem. If I'd just sat on the shoulder for half an hour I'd have saved myself from a week of aches and pains. :cry:

[unkjon]

The clutch is oil bathed, so you do not need to worry about using it too much, you will not burn the clutch. When rolling at a slow speed you should maintain a slight amount of throttle and use your clutch to adjust the speed. With practice you should be able to roll at slow speed very smoothly by using your clutch. As far as going into a turn in 2nd it sounds like you should have downshifted into 1st, then you should have been able to accelerate smoothly through the turn. You should not upshift or downshift while in the turn. With practice you will learn the gear to use when entering a turn.

[mrlmd1]

You may be in too high a gear for the speed you are going and putting too high a load on the engine and it is bogging down. With a little more riding experience you will know what gear to be in at what speed. 2nd gear at 5 mph or so may not be appropriate, you may have needed to be in first. You do not have to ride the clutch, really not a good idea, and will get to know your bike better with more riding time.

[Viirin]

For instance, I'm rolling and I am now in second gear. I let off the throttle to go into a curve or turn. After slowing I roll onto the throttle (after not using much or any at all, coasting a bit) and go through the turn. Sometimes this caused the range bikes to be just a bit jerky when rolling back on the throttle, didn't cause any control issues, but I just wanted to know if this was normal and if I should have been using the clutch to avoid damaging anything.

That's what I need to know.:


I was the same when i started - the jerkiness when you open the throttle can be worrying - i formed a habbit which i am still undecided on whether it is bad or not of slightly pulling in the clutch and matching the revs to the speed to remove the jerkiness but as far as proper training goes i think you just get used to the jerkiness, the more you do it and the more you anticipate it the less jumpy it seems - i only do it now if i'm suddenly opening the throttle a lot and the jump would be larger than normal - really slowly opening the throttle and giving the engine time to catch up can remove the jerkiness too but this isn't always an option

Hope this helps

Vii

[burkbuilds]

Nightsbane, you got a lot of really good advice here, but I think Rionna gave you the best of all, go find a large empty parking lot and practice, practice and then practice some more. Just about anybody can fly down the straightaway, it's the slow speed turns and the starts and stops that most riders need to work on. You'll find your groove through lots of repetitions and one day you will realize that you probably can't remember the last time you had that "jerky" feeling.

I can't speak for anybody else, just me, but even though I rode dirt bikes every day as a kid, it took me a good while to feel solidly in control of a street bike when I started riding again after 20+ years of not riding. I think the GZ is one of the very best choices for someone to learn to ride on. It handle well, doesn't really have enough power to get away from you easily, and it's light enough to pick up if you fall over.

I saw a young lady on a big Harley touring bike take a spill at a stop sign the other day because she hit a little gravel and once it started to go, she didn't have the strength to keep it up. I think she probably hurt her hip trying to keep it from falling over. She was almost completely stopped when it dropped her and it took two big men to get that puppy back upright.

You've got the right bike, just get out there and spend a lot of time practicing slow speed maneuvers and stops and starts. :)

[mole2]

The single most mystifying thing about learning to ride a bike has been the clutch. I have driven a scooter for a while, and so I was leaps and bounds ahead of other riders in the MSF class in most tested areas while rolling, but when it came to shifting I was a slow learner having only driven a stick shift once or twice in my life.

I didn't get all of the info I needed in the class and so I will ask here, something I am sure I will be doing a lot the first couple weeks.

When is the proper time to use the clutch? I know gear changes use the clutch, and when coming to a stop. What I am confused about it if you should use the clutch when rolling off the throttle in a turn. I noticed on the training bike that rolling completely off the throttle and coasting and then rolling back on the throttle caused a little jerky jump at first. Is this normal/supposed to happen or am I supposed to be using the clutch? I just need to know what to do before I get to higher speeds. I want to make sure there isn't something I will do to make it jump out of my control when rolling on the throttle while driving.

Thanks for your time.

I'm just coming into this discussion now. What bothers me is the bold phrase above. You don't coast in a turn, you stay in gear. You roll your throttle to maintain speed and once straightened up you roll your throttle to accelerate. Never coast in a turn. You seem to be confusing the "friction zone" used in slow speed maneuvers with turning. Re-read you manual and you will see for turns Slow for entry speed, Look through the entire turn, Press the hand grip slightly on the side you want to turn (counter steering), and roll your throttle to keep from losing speed.

Let me know if this is what you were asking about.


:)

[Nightsbane]

Not what I was asking at all. I was only asking if you should engage the clutch when you have completely rolled off the throttle before you roll back on.

There is nothing at all wrong with coasting into a turn. You approach the turn, use the clutch and perhaps a little break to slow, start your approach vector and then roll on the throttle evenly through the turn to cause the centripetal force to carry you through the turn. If you thought I meant coasting THROUGH a turn then I think you misunderstood me. The turn has started once you have taken any action required for that turn, and the process of slowing down is the first step even before turning the bike a single degree.

[mole2]

Not what I was asking at all. I was only asking if you should engage the clutch when you have completely rolled off the throttle before you roll back on.

There is nothing at all wrong with coasting into a turn. You approach the turn, use the clutch and perhaps a little break to slow, start your approach vector and then roll on the throttle evenly through the turn to cause the centripetal force to carry you through the turn. If you thought I meant coasting THROUGH a turn then I think you misunderstood me. The turn has started once you have taken any action required for that turn, and the process of slowing down is the first step even before turning the bike a single degree.

Ok, I did misunderstand you. I wouldn't coast into a turn. You may let your clutch out and momentarily lock your rear wheel while your front wheel is turned causing you to lose friction on your rear tire and go down (low side). Ride safe.


:)

[Rookie Rider]

Im a new rider and i always squeeze the clutch right before i brake cause im still nervous that i will stall and then fall.

[Nightsbane]

Why would you fall from a stall? If your engine dies just brake safely and restart?

[geezer]

young pups you hve so much to learn, no you dont coast into turn! sure it works but its bad practice. coasting reduces ground clearance limiting your lean angle. but i do ride sportbikes and alot of my technique comes from that but its all the same bikes are bikes

[Nightsbane]

Once again, you are missing my explanation. I never said coast into the actual turning motion, I was referencing coasting into the approach to the turn, meaning you can slow before you ever move your bars or lean a millimeter. Then accelerate and move into the turn normally.

[geezer]

actually you can lean up to one mm before coasting gets unsafe :neener: i kid cool just ride

[FutZ]

I think I understand what you’re trying to ask. And I'm assuming were talking neighborhood 90 degree turn not bends in the road while you’re going 55. As you’re slowing down for a turn, you are braking and then coasting before you enter the turn, then roll on to the throttle before the lean and feel a bit of a jerky motion then you maintain speed through the turn and then accelerate out of it.

If that is the case then you have slowed enough that you should have down shifted or if you are in first then yes use your clutch to ease the transition and avoid stalling. Just release slowly so you don't have any loss of traction. Look where you want to go and be confident that the bike will do its part.

[Rookie Rider]

When i was practicing to start off by releasing the clutch and giving it throttle, i would miss the friction zone and the bike would stall. Same when i practiced slow turns,or slow circle turns or figure eights, i clutched wrong and the bike stalled and it fell over, thats why im nervous and squeeze the clutch right before i brake every single time.

[Dupo]

Honestly, that is a bad habit to form. you shouldn't rely soley on your brakes to stop you/slow you down. You should rely on the compression of the engine when you downshift AS WELL AS the brakes. You stop/slow down MUCH quicker and a lot smoother using the engine compression on the downshift. Get off that bad habit before you get so used to it that it stays with you for good (rookie rider that means you).

Learn how to downshift and brake properly and set yourself up for a turn. If your bike is jerky when you roll on the throttle out of the turn, then you are simply in the wrong gear and did not set yourself up for the turn correctly. You either are in too high a gear or to low a gear if it is jerking. How does that happen?...By pulling in the clutch and not using it effectively to slow down and most importantly ...listening... to the rpms of the bike corresponding to how you are entering that corner and putting your bike in the gear it should be in. It should be a smooth transition of engine brake, foot brake, downshift once or twice depending on curve, rolling in the curve (without holding the clutch), hitting the apex and rolling on the throttle. No clutch pull, no jerks, no problem.

Didn't they teach you this in the MSF? I distinctly remember them telling everyone about downshifting and stopping and how its effectiveness helps the bike slow down faster.

[Water Warrior 2]

Wanna learn to shift and use the clutch properly ? Pick up a copy of "Proficient Motorcycling" by David Hough. It is the best way to learn from reading and practicing what you read. Most if not all decent training courses are based on his writing and praised by anyone who reads his decades of experience and lessons. Read and undo any bad habits before they become ingrained in your riding.

[cayuse]

Very good advice from Dupo and WW! :2tup:

[Rookie Rider]

Yeah i do downshift before i brake always. But i do use my clutch as im braking. I live in queens NY so there arent any curves here, just lots of "L" turns. Have to come almost to a COMPLETE STOP JUST TO TURN HERE ITS RIDICULOUS. Thank you fellas.

[Rookie Rider]

Were do you guys get those smileys from ? the 2thumbs up etc.? lol

[geezer]

dude reply to this, see those happy little guys on the left there? lol if your that blind you should def not be riding :neener: :lol: :2tup: :fu: O_o :shocked: :tongue: :) :roll: :skull: :twisted:

[Dupo]

Yeah i do downshift before i brake always. But i do use my clutch as im braking.

If you are pulling the clutch as you come to a stop when you are in 1st gear .. ok. If you are pulling the clutch when you brake any other time, then what i said stands. Only time you need to pull the clutch is to shift up/down and when you come to a stop in 1st. That's it.

[Suncross]

The single most mystifying thing about learning to ride a bike has been the clutch. I have driven a scooter for a while, and so I was leaps and bounds ahead of other riders in the MSF class in most tested areas while rolling, but when it came to shifting I was a slow learner having only driven a stick shift once or twice in my life.

I didn't get all of the info I needed in the class and so I will ask here, something I am sure I will be doing a lot the first couple weeks.

When is the proper time to use the clutch? I know gear changes use the clutch, and when coming to a stop. What I am confused about it if you should use the clutch when rolling off the throttle in a turn. I noticed on the training bike that rolling completely off the throttle and coasting and then rolling back on the throttle caused a little jerky jump at first. Is this normal/supposed to happen or am I supposed to be using the clutch? I just need to know what to do before I get to higher speeds. I want to make sure there isn't something I will do to make it jump out of my control when rolling on the throttle while driving.

Thanks for your time.

You never ever want to roll off the throttle while turning. You actually want to roll on the throttle. That's why you brake (depending on the angle of the turn) before turning. Slow, look, press and roll. That's what I learned at riders edge :fu:

All good fun though. The real practice is when you get on the road. Think of the first (and really from first to second, because that is the first shift) shift as starting out. You want to ease as you did from the start. From all the other gears shifting UP, you want to just single motion drop and shift. Do it quick. If you shift and roll back on the throttle, it should be seamless. Just one pull forward from dropping the clutch as you completed a shift.

Most bikes friction zone is different. You can't really change where it's at easily, but once you know where it is you can experiment. See what happens when you pull the clutch back, but don't completely let off the throttle (no shifting). The engine will rev. A lot. From there, just close the gap between the time you roll off the throttle, and pull back the clutch. Eventually you will get it. I put 400+ miles on my bike in about 2 weeks (since I got my motorcycle license 2 weeks ago, lol), and I still have the bike jumping a lot at times.

This is just what has worked for me. Maybe someone with more experience will tell me im wrong, or amend. We're in it to win it.

Happy riding.

**EDIT**


Yeah i do downshift before i brake always. But i do use my clutch as im braking.

If you are pulling the clutch as you come to a stop when you are in 1st gear .. ok. If you are pulling the clutch when you brake any other time, then what i said stands. Only time you need to pull the clutch is to shift up/down and when you come to a stop in 1st. That's it.

When I am rolling up on a red light that is around the corner (doing about 60 mph), I look and time everything so I glide to a perfect stop. However, as soon as I see it's red, I pull the clutch in. and just ride. I hold it until I stop completely. I still downshift at the appropriate road speed. Is this ok to do? Is this a bad habbit?

[Rookie Rider]

Thanks Dupo and Suncross, i'll be practicing that for sure.......... Geezer, i dont see those happy little guys to the left anywhere, lol. Thats it im selling my bike. haha

[geezer]

hmm they should be there. is all your seeing is a bunch of red X's?

[blaine]

Thanks Dupo and Suncross, i'll be practicing that for sure.......... Geezer, i dont see those happy little guys to the left anywhere, lol. Thats it im selling my bike. hahaHit "preview" before you hit "submit"

[Dupo]

When I am rolling up on a red light that is around the corner (doing about 60 mph), I look and time everything so I glide to a perfect stop. However, as soon as I see it's red, I pull the clutch in. and just ride. I hold it until I stop completely. I still downshift at the appropriate road speed. Is this ok to do? Is this a bad habbit?


Yes, bad habit:

Deceleration
Typically with motorcycles and in motor sport, the clutch is often used to facilitate the use of resistance from the engine spinning at high speeds to decelerate the vehicle more quickly, often accompanied with normal braking. This is achieved by placing the vehicle in a gear that would ordinarily be too low for the current speed and momentum of the vehicle and by partly engaging the clutch. When this happens momentum energy from the inertia of the vehicle is taken away to spin the engine as close as possible to its maximum capability. As the vehicle is decelerating the clutch can be further released to transfer more energy to keep the engine spinning as quickly as possible. Once the clutch is entirely released this cycle proceeds downwards through the gears to further assist deceleration. If the clutch is controlled improperly while this is being attempted, damage or extra wear to the engine and gears is possible, as well as the risk of wheels locking up and a subsequent loss of proper vehicle control.

-------------------

You also run the risk of being in the wrong gear or too low of a gear and locking your rear wheel.

This guy explains it pretty good. And yes, he DOES say he stops by pulling the clutch, stopping then shifting down the gears. He does it when i do it, when a light changes red quickly, traffic stops abruptly, someone turns in front of you all of a sudden ... etc... and theres no time to engine brake.

[youtube:2j77uvwp]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg4izLOs6nE[/youtube:2j77uvwp]

[Dupo]

Geezer, i dont see those happy little guys to the left anywhere, lol. Thats it im selling my bike. haha

Don't use the quick reply box ... click on "post reply" button on the lower left under the last post. it will take you to the 'post a reply' page and there you can do magically wonderful things :tongue:

[alantf]

Go to "post reply". Make sure that "disable smilies" isn't ticked. When you want a smilie, click on it, & it'll appear wherever the cursor is on the "post reply" page. :2tup:

[Suncross]

When I am rolling up on a red light that is around the corner (doing about 60 mph), I look and time everything so I glide to a perfect stop. However, as soon as I see it's red, I pull the clutch in. and just ride. I hold it until I stop completely. I still downshift at the appropriate road speed. Is this ok to do? Is this a bad habbit?


Yes, bad habit:

Deceleration
Typically with motorcycles and in motor sport, the clutch is often used to facilitate the use of resistance from the engine spinning at high speeds to decelerate the vehicle more quickly, often accompanied with normal braking. This is achieved by placing the vehicle in a gear that would ordinarily be too low for the current speed and momentum of the vehicle and by partly engaging the clutch. When this happens momentum energy from the inertia of the vehicle is taken away to spin the engine as close as possible to its maximum capability. As the vehicle is decelerating the clutch can be further released to transfer more energy to keep the engine spinning as quickly as possible. Once the clutch is entirely released this cycle proceeds downwards through the gears to further assist deceleration. If the clutch is controlled improperly while this is being attempted, damage or extra wear to the engine and gears is possible, as well as the risk of wheels locking up and a subsequent loss of proper vehicle control.

-------------------

You also run the risk of being in the wrong gear or too low of a gear and locking your rear wheel.

This guy explains it pretty good. And yes, he DOES say he stops by pulling the clutch, stopping then shifting down the gears. He does it when i do it, when a light changes red quickly, traffic stops abruptly, someone turns in front of you all of a sudden ... etc... and theres no time to engine brake.

[youtube:wpsvqelu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg4izLOs6nE[/youtube:wpsvqelu]

I suppose I will ebrake a bit more. My bike has about 1500 miles on it. The bike sat for like 3 years so.. it probably isn't really broken in yet. I've heard of people not braking their bikes in until the 3-5k marker. I do exactly what he does in the video already... although I just keep the clutch in. I just remember what gear I am in, and downshift according to road speed. I don't like ebraking because it has to be ever so perfect to not get violently jerked around. I suppose all good things come in practice.

[alantf]

Hit "preview" before you hit "submit"

Why? :??:

[blaine]

Brings up "smilies" if you are on "quick reply". :) :rawk:

[Water Warrior 2]

Practice practice practice your ebrakeing and you will get a better feel for the clutch. When downshifting just blip the throttle once when the clutch is pulled in to match the rpm to the bike speed and it will be a smoother downshift. Pul in the clutch, blip the throttle as you downshift and ease out the clutch to catch the rpm as it is dropping. Yes it takes a little coordination but the ride is a lot smoother and fun.

[Rookie Rider]

:rawk: hahahahaa. Finally

[akbob343]

I totally get what you mean.
I just got my bike and have been practicing in parking lots and around the neighbourhood like crazy, but when i do a left turn into my street,
if i don't shift down and use the clutch, it will stall in the middle of the road -_-
do i shift down before the turn then hold the clutch?
The thing is when i hold the clutch in 1st, and try to complete the turn, i find it jerks forward so i just quickly shift to second.
REALLY don't want this to happen out on busy streets.
All help is so appreciated, as this site has helped alot.
Thanks.

[akbob343]

I totally get what you mean.
I just got my bike and have been practicing in parking lots and around the neighbourhood like crazy, but when i do a left turn into my street,
if i don't shift down and use the clutch, it will stall in the middle of the road -_-
do i shift down before the turn then hold the clutch? :??:
The thing is when i hold the clutch in 1st, and try to complete the turn, i find it jerks forward so i just quickly shift to second.
REALLY don't want this to happen out on busy streets.
All help is so appreciated, as this site has helped alot.
Thanks.

[Dupo]

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS set yourself up BEFORE a turn/curve. Have the bike in the desired gear and speed before taking turn/curve. If you are stalling just making a left into your street, sounds like you are in too high of a gear and going too slow causing it to shut off. You really shouldn't downshift into first gear while setting up for a turn ... the bike will most certainly jerk back n forth or compression lock the back tire. Stay in or downshift to 2nd ... keep your speed 10-15mph or above depending on turn/curve, roll off the throttle and enter the turn .. slowly roll back on the throttle and out of the turn. If you are under 10mph and creeping around a turn, then 1st gear could be used. Need to learn how to feather the clutch and throttle together for smooth transitions so as not to jerk the bike back n forth. Shouldn't hold the clutch in while you turn either! What if you accidentally shift too low for the turn while you keep that clutch pulled in? Possible compression lock. Keep the bike in gear!

[cayuse]

What Dupo said! :2tup:
To paraphrase:
You should NEVER be holding in the clutch while you are moving, unless you are in a quick-stop situation as mentioned above. Maybe you are holding in the clutch as you slow down to avoid stalling the engine while approaching a turn? Rather, as you slow down, you should downshift to let the engine turn over faster. If you do this so the engine is always engaged (clutch out) and is turning at some mid-range RPM, (not idling, and not screaming) you will automatically find yourself in or near the proper gear to power through the turn.
How's the heat today in Brampton, BTW?!? It's a bike-perfect day here in Abby, 23C and sunny. :)

[Rookie Rider]

If you squeeze in the clutch and down shift before a turn (which i do), do you just release the clutch without giving anymore throttle? Because i hold the clutch in thru the turn with no throttle till coming out of turn then give throttle.

[Water Warrior 2]

If you squeeze in the clutch and down shift before a turn (which i do), do you just release the clutch without giving anymore throttle? Because i hold the clutch in thru the turn with no throttle till coming out of turn then give throttle.
Nope. You should be in the appropriate gear with the clutch out(engaged). To rid yourself of jerking on a downshift just blip the throttle a bit a moment before letting out the clutch. This way you will closely match the engine RPM and speed of the bike before you have entered the turn. Coast(clutch out) into the turn and gently apply throttle to complete the turn. The bike will be much smoother and you will have more control. The key is to be as smooth as possible in all your actions. This does take practice and some thought as to what you are doing and why you are doing it. Just ride around the neighborhood and turn left or right at every corner. This way you will build confidence and get a feeling for shifting and matching gears to the speed while in familiar surroundings. Later on unfamiliar areas will not be near the challenge when you get comfy.

[mrlmd1]

You should not be in neutral, coasting around a turn with the clutch in. You have much better traction when cornering around a turn with the rear wheel under power, and turning up the power as you are leaving the turn (1/2 way through it). You set up your speed before entering the turn, speed up a little through it, out of it.

[Rookie Rider]

I squeeze clutch in and downshift before a turn, but i hold the clutch in cause i dont know if i can just let clutch out (clutch in, down shift, clutch out ... no throttole, can i do it like this? ) without giving it some throttle without stalling

[Dupo]

Why couldn't you just let the clutch out? Clutch out, no throttle .... you are asking if you can do that? You do that on decel right? Why couldn't you in a turn?

Seems you keep asking the same question over and over ... we've shown video how to turn and replied several times on how to take a turn or corner.

[Rookie Rider]

Yes i do that to decel but i hold the clutch in still, i dont let it out. When i do let it out im giving it throttle.

[alantf]

Yes i do that to decel but i hold the clutch in still, i dont let it out. When i do let it out im giving it throttle.

IMHO, it seems like you can't grasp the rather simple concept. I think you need professional advice. Have you taken the basic riders' course? If not, I reckon you ought to take it. If you have done, then you haven't had your money's worth, & should think about going back & asking the instructor to walk you through it. :2tup:

[geezer]

im with stupid :plus1:

[Rookie Rider]

Im the most sober burnout youd ever meet. lol. The MSF course did this with us, in second gear to let off throttle, downshift, brake, (no clutch) turn, and give throttle when almost out of turn. I stalled once and fell with the bike on the street and i guess i have a fear of it happening again, i dont know.. I like to be sure ya know. Thank you fellas.

[mrlmd1]

If the bike is traveling forward with the bars and front wheel turned to the side and you hit the front brake, or stall, the bike is going DOWN, that's a matter of physics and is a given, every time. You probably hit the brake at slow speed making you fall over. You may have been in too high a gear for the speed you were traveling and the engine lugged and stalled. Practice, practice, and more practice is what you need, and READ those books.

[Rookie Rider]

I never held the brakes when turning a mountain bike or a ten speed bicycle, so im not going to do that with a motorcycle.

[geezer]

during your course as you were telln us in your last post, you didnt release the clutch, it woud have been silly to at those speeds, also you were coming to a stop not a roll to turn or a slow down and take off. dude read up, youtube and practice

[Rookie Rider]

I'll get it eventually, like i do everything else i try.

[geezer]

well your failing at taking pics of those wheels :whistle:

[Rookie Rider]

haha i took pics 2 days ago actually, i didnt forget. Gonna try to put em on now. I'll put them on the GZ pics page. lol

[Rookie Rider]

Go check em out in the GZ PICS page !!

[tulsawalk]

The single most mystifying thing about learning to ride a bike has been the clutch. I have driven a scooter for a while, and so I was leaps and bounds ahead of other riders in the MSF class in most tested areas while rolling, but when it came to shifting I was a slow learner having only driven a stick shift once or twice in my life.

I didn't get all of the info I needed in the class and so I will ask here, something I am sure I will be doing a lot the first couple weeks.

When is the proper time to use the clutch? I know gear changes use the clutch, and when coming to a stop. What I am confused about it if you should use the clutch when rolling off the throttle in a turn. I noticed on the training bike that rolling completely off the throttle and coasting and then rolling back on the throttle caused a little jerky jump at first. Is this normal/supposed to happen or am I supposed to be using the clutch? I just need to know what to do before I get to higher speeds. I want to make sure there isn't something I will do to make it jump out of my control when rolling on the throttle while driving.

Thanks for your time.

Nightsbane,

You have gotten some good advice (as far as it went) and some bad remarks. I am a MSF coach, recently joined this forum for maintenance answers on my GZ250s we use in class.

First of all, do yourself a favor and take another class. The questions you are asking are covered (or should be) specifically in the course.

NO, do not pull in your clutch or coast through a corner. While it may work if you are going slow enough, it is most certainly not the correct method to use.

A motorcycles suspension must be loaded, or have some pressure on it, to work properly. The technique we teach is called Slow, Look, Press and Roll. I'll break down the steps for you.

Slow to a suitable entry speed. A suitable entry speed has several definitions: A speed slow enough to safely negotiate the turn. A speed slow enough to allow throttle roll on (or acceleration) throughout the turn. I also like to apply the rule to never travel faster than you can stop in the distance you can see.

So, what does it mean to roll on the throttle. Two part answer, the initial roll on is to take the slack out of the throttle and match throttle setting to the speed you are traveling. In other words a neutral or slightly accelerating state. Then, as you come off of apex (top center of the turn) begin to apply more throttle to finish off the turn.

The look process has multiple parts as well. The initial look should take place prior to corner entry, checking the road surface for debris, pot holes etc. then immediately look as far through the turn as you can to identify your line through the corner. Continue to track your gaze as far through the corner as possible until you can see the exit. Once you have picked your exit point lift your eyes down the road on the line you complete your track.

WHERE YOU LOOK IS WHERE YOU GO EVERY TIME!!!

Press means to press the handlebar grip in the direction you want to go. This is called counter steering. The press is out, not down on the grip. If you are turning right, press on the right grip. This initiates motorcycle lean which a motorcycle must do to turn when traveling faster than 10 mph. Below that speed we turn our bars in the direction we want to go. If you are not turning enough or are going wide in the turn, press more. Do not let off the throttle or apply the brakes. This of course assumes you did not enter the corner at an insanely too high of speed to begin with.

Roll means to roll on the throttle to take up the slack and stabilize the suspension, then to increase speed as you come off of apex.

I like to stabilize the throttle right after the slow process just before I press into the turn at corner entry. The key is to get all of your slow done with both brakes, without squeezing the clutch (unless you are downshifting to a slower speed) and off the brakes PRIOR to initiating your turn.

There are other techniques for cornering which are more advanced and NOT to be explored until you master SLPR.

Remember to not look down or at the sides of the road or lines (you will go where you look) and keep your eyes moving and looking as far through the turn as you can. Use your peripheral vision to keep track of where you are in the lane.

Hope this helps.

[Rookie Rider]

I thank you for takin the time to write this. I did learn SLPR in the class. Im getting the hang of it now, much better then i was. Thanks again.

[Water Warrior 2]

Tulsawalk, beautifully written. A fine explaination of how to do it right. My compliments to you.

[jonathan180iq]

I guess I've totally overlooked this topic.

In auto racing, we call it "pouring glue".
Everytime you get on the gas, you are pouring glue out of your rear tires. Without glue, you have no traction. If you aren't pouring glue in a turn, your back end will break free and you'll loose the line and possibly spin off the course. And while it is possible to give too much gas that you break your line as well, you have to be in gear and on the gas in the turn.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3009/2906154291_92cd14f2ac.jpg

Approach turn
Downshift
Slight gas to enter
Medium gas after apex
Full throttle to exit and hit next straight (for racing anyway... simplify this for bikes)

Look at motorcycle riding the same way. What you are doing without being in gear and on the gas in a turn is incredibly dangerous. Like Tulsawalk mentioned, you have to have the suspenion loaded if you are going to be able to put outside pressure on your rear tire. Will it hold for basic left and right hand banks? Sure... But what if you suddenly have to change course in the middle of a turn in order to avoid some type of obstacle? Do you think that dropping into gear at that precise moment and then thumping the gas will correct your trajectory? It will not. At least it will not do so safely.

http://www.picturesof.net/_images_300/A_Colorful_Cartoon_Dog_Chasing_a_Postman_Down_the_ Street_Royalty_Free_Clipart_Picture_100709-021913-111053.jpg

Let's say you are putting through life, mid-turn with the clutch pulled in. A dog suddenly decides that you are more interesting than the mailman. Startled, but thinking you're in control, you release the clutch lever, shifting your momentum forward onto the front wheel, as the bike tries to engage second gear. At the same time you punch the gas a little more than you should, because, let's be honest, dogs are scary. Your back wheel, which has had weight and momentum shifted off of it, tries to catch traction but it's not 100% and your tail moves towards the outside lane. At this point, the bike is leaning over farther than you are accustomed to so you try and fight it and lean up, trying to make the bike correct it's position. This actually pushes the bike down even further, digging your peg into the asphault, angling the rear wheel off the ground, and you low-side. The bike continues on its path into the outside lane and stops in the ditch on the other side of the road, warping your forks and pushing the front tire up into engine case. You slide and roll about 15 feet and are lucky that there wasn't a car behind you. Also lucky for you, you were wearing a full face helmet and an armored jacket with matching leather gloves so your worst injury is only the 3rd degree burn caused by road rash. It only takes the doctors 3 hours to remove the road grit from the surface of your salmon pink skin....

Don't you wish you had been in gear, slightly on the gas?

Even if you are talking about making a 90* turn in city from North St. to East St., you need to be in gear. 2nd gear will handle anything more than sitting still. If you are moving, you need to be in gear. Even if it's just idle speed approaching said turn, you need to be in gear.

[alanmcorcoran]

If you are interested in EVEN MORE DETAIL on the relationship between throttle, suspension and cornering, read Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist Vol II, Section 1. He dedicates five chapters to it. I didn't really get the hang of it until I read this and then practiced it consistently on my long rides last year. I got a lot better at corners and twists just by riding for a year, but this info improved my consistency and confidence a lot. It does require practice to maintain the skill.

[Rookie Rider]

Keith Codes, is this a book i can buy ?

[cayuse]

I got it from Amazon. Full of good stuff.
http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Basic ... 414&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Basics-High-Performance-Motorcycle/dp/0965045021/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1313558414&sr=8-1)

[alanmcorcoran]

It's Keith Code. And, yes. Probably used as well as new.

[raul10141964]

slow down to the correct speed an set the right gear for that speed before the turn and continue whit no cluch

[AndrewGZ250_02]

I felt this jitter yesterday when I took the GZ out for a few minutes. Although it seems dangerous to have a surge like that during a corner, I think trying to use the clutch is even more dangerous. If you try to help by allowing some slippage, you then have to worry about accidentally revving too high, and/or dumping the clutch, and receiving an even larger surge which could throw you right off the road !

My mother is a race-car driver and she is quite serious about this: Stay in one gear in a turn (no clutch not even a little bit), because getting into gear mid-turn is a perfect chance to throw the balance off.

[dentheman]

I have only been riding since January and also had the 'jerkiness' at the beginning. But as I gained experience things got smoother. I'm not sure why, but I think it was because I was doing things too quickly. Rolling off the throttle too quickly, rolling on the throttle too quickly, and letting out the clutch lever too quickly. Go to a parking lot as others have suggested and practice, slowing down on the things I mentioned. This should help your coordination between clutch and throttle which I suspect is the true problem you are having. As you gain experience things will get smoother.

Practice this on the straights and the turns will improve naturally.

After saying all that, if it is just a "little jerkiness or jolt" as you mentioned, DON'T EVEN WORRY ABOUT IT! It will go away as you gain experience.

[abarbs]

I second that. This is why I love this forum. Thank you I learned something as well.

[vikz250]

well after finishing the MSF class i have learned that slow down before the turn and accelerate through the turn , never break during the turn and lean with the turn..

[dentheman]

well after finishing the MSF class i have learned that slow down before the turn and accelerate through the turn , never break during the turn and lean with the turn..
They teach to straighten up before emergency braking in a turn, but as you gain experience you will be able to brake (to a point) during a turn. I have learned in the short time I have been riding that I can brake in a turn, because I had to, I had not set up my turn properly. But I don't like the idea of braking in a turn ordinarily.

[Water Warrior 2]

You can brake in a turn if you use the rear brake only. You can use both in an emergency in a low speed turn but will like go down as the front end geometry will be upset in the turn as the forks compress and weight shifts.
As for higher speeds you can use both brakes to reduce your speed. The wheels act as gyroscopes and want to stay upright. The higher the speed the more stable you will be. There we go with the learning curve again !! I practiced high speed braking into a curve. I used a good piece of smooth curvy road (slightly downhill)with no dead critters or garbage on it. And definitely no tar snakes as they are scary under normal conditions in my opinion.

[5th_bike]

No problem shifting gears in a turn, you see the GZ250 is not a race-bike and doesn't have enough power to "throw you off the road" if you accidentally "drop the clutch" going say from 3rd to 4th gear.

Like dentheman said - You will learn to ignore its little jitters - and enjoy the ride ! :2tup:

[mole2]

No problem shifting gears in a turn, you see the GZ250 is not a race-bike and doesn't have enough power to "throw you off the road" if you accidentally "drop the clutch" going say from 3rd to 4th gear.

Like dentheman said - You will learn to ignore its little jitters - and enjoy the ride ! :2tup:

You shouldn't be shifting during a curve or turn as you run the chance of breaking friction on the rear wheel which will take you down. That's why you set up before the curve and roll your throttle slightly to maintain speed and keep friction at it's max.


:)

[AndrewGZ250_02]

And it will throw off the gyroscopic force that keeps you from falling when you lean. At slow speeds you might be able to pull off gear-shifts, but its a habit that will carry over to higher speeds and someday it'll bite you. Even the GZ is capable of losing grip due to too much turning + imbalance, and that limit closes in fast when you are going over a puddle, slick, uneven pavement, etc. Better to create a safe foundation that you won't have to revise in an emergency situation.

[Skunkhome]

I find proper clutching to be much easier when you can hear the engine. Until yesterday I could feel thar my clutching and gear changing was choppy but could not get a handle on it until I readjusted my windshield and got my head out of the turbulence. I can imagine it sounded horrible to bystanders even though I couldn't hear a thing. Now my shifting is smooth as glass even from 1st to 2nd.

[kmrcstintn]

the 'throttle down, clutch in -- shift -- clutch out, throttle up' sequence is different for each type of bike and each rider must 'feel' the intrinsics for his/her own bike; my first bike, a 2008 Buell Blast, had a horrendous transmission and being a single cylinder bike (without counterbalance) made the shifting sequence alot more herky-jerky than the Kawaskai Eliminator 125 I used for my MSF course; on the opposite side, the shifting sequence on my 2009 Yamaha V Star 650 is smooth as glass compared to the Blast, but there are intermittent 'jerky' feelings in first gear due to the shaft drive, but nothing like the Buell; my smaller bike, a 2009 Suzuki GZ250, has a 'clunkier' shift sequence than the V Star, but nothing as unforgiving as the Blast; sometimes on the Blast I would get a 'grind' when trying to shift into first or if I was trying to downshift through the gears too quickly (RPM's too high), but 2 different H-D/Buell shops said it was just the 'harley-esque' transmission on the bike and I just went with it; I have to push the shifter further on the GZ than the V Star to engage the gears, especially when downshifting into first (sometimes I don't get it and hit neutral, then I have to roll the bike a bit to get first to engage at a stop); there is no one 'correct' answer to the OP's question...each bike has it's own 'feel' and overthinking the sequence can make the experience of riding unpleasant :shocked: