bike clicks rapidly, engine does not turn over.

[jdbaum3]

Hello all, I've been lurking for a few months now since we just picked up a GZ for my girlfriend. :popcorn: I finally am at a point that I need some clarification on a few things. I have been searching the forum and it seems others have had similar problems, but never quite the same, and no firm resolutions (yet.) So I thought I'd go ahead and make a thread so I didn't end up hijacking someone else' and keep track of what has and has not been check.
Here is the run down so far, with probably a little excess information thrown in. We picked up the bike a few hundred miles ago and she's been learning to ride on it ever since. The previous owners had put a straight pipe on it and couldn't tell me if the carb had been rejetted for it or not. The bike didn't seem to generate any power, and was as loud as hell :poke2: so I got a used stock exhaust and mounted it up. With the new exhaust it seemed to run much stronger and much quieter :2tup: Kelly continues to ride the bike and picks up the poor habit of inadvertently leaving the bike with the parking light on. The battery is recharged each time with my speed charger at the lowest 2amp setting. I know this is probably too high/fast but it is what I had available and I figured the battery would be replaced shortly anyway :whistle:
So the other day I get a call at work from Kelly telling me she is broken down and can I come get her. I assume it's the light being left on again but she swears that she has been checking and it was not. I didn't have time to look at the bike at all, I just swung by and took her home. The next night I have time to go retrieve the motorcycle. While there I put in the key, all the lights turn on, put it in neutral, check that the kill switch is in the correct position, put the sidestand up, pull in the clutch and try to fire it up. I get a series of clicks, with no sound of life from the engine. There is no audible bogging sound/lights dimming. This isn't how it's behaved before with the battery being too low. The parking lot is slanted, so I wheel it to the top and start pushing it down, figuring I'd try to bumpstart it. I try this several times in both second and third, getting up to 8-10 miles per hour then dropping the clutch. I don't know if I'd have more luck feathering it, but I have always just instantly released the clutch lever when attempting to bump start. Each time the rear wheel instantly locks up, still no sign of the engine trying to turn over. At this point I pop the bike in neutral and push it home. Once home I pull the plug and check for spark while grounding it on the engine. I would get a short spark about 1 in 5 hits of the started, still a rapid clicking noise, sometimes just a single click, but no movement from the engine. :??: So just to take the first step I have recharged the battery and the bike is doing the same thing. I asked Kelly if the bike was running differently at all before she stopped that day and she said there was a new clicking sound when she shifted but couldn't clarify any further than that.
Today I plan on testing the battery and also trying to figure out in the engine is somehow locked up. I saw one recommendation to try wheeling the bike with the spark plug removed in either 4th or 5th gear and the clutch out. Is this the best way to check? :??: If I verify the battery still has enough juice OR replace it and fully charge a new one, what's the next thing to check in the electrical system? :??: I am an electrical dummy, but eager to learn. Sorry, I know this is long, but wanted to be thorough.

[blaine]

I would take the spark plug out and take the timing plug and see if you can turn the engine over with a ratchet & socket.Than we can work from there.
:cool: :)

[Water Warrior 2]

The "NEW" clicking sound Kelly heard is of interest. Have you checked the oil level in the sight glass(round window) on the right side of the engine case. Bike must be upright for proper level. Also check the gas tank for gas.

[jdbaum3]

Alright, checked on a couple of things and this is what I've found. I had fully charged the battery, but had put it back in the bike and hit the starter about 10 times to try and isolate where the clicking was coming from. I had the battery checked at the auto parts store knowing that it had some slight drain and is a pretty small battery to start with. The guy said it was at 40% and asked if I had fully charged it, I explained what had happened and I agreed to let him throw it on their quick charger assuming that the battery would be replaced shortly either way. Hooked onto the charger it came back with an error stating the battery was bad. I have not gotten a new battery yet as they did not have any that size. Once I do I will fully charge it before sticking it in the bike.
I tried rolling the bike with the spark plug out in 3rd, 4th, and 5th gears, the rear wheel would just slide, no engine rotation.
I removed the timing plugs and used a 22mm socket to try manually turning the engine. There was an initial high amount of resistance as I rolled it to the timing mark indicating TDC, then as I went past it got progressively easier, almost as if it was breaking free. After the next revolution the internals were coated with oil and I was not able to tell when it was lined up again.
I checked the oil in the sight glass with the bike level and it is within the high and low marks, the tank has gas and the petcock is set to on. There is a smell of gas as I crank the starter with the plug out, so I don't think it's a lack of fuel.
I am glad I was able to turn the engine over with the socket wrench as it has concerned me that through all of this I haven't felt the engine try to turn over at all, even when trying to bump start it.
The obvious next step it would seem would be to replace the battery with a new fully charged one. My gut reaction is that this is not the culprit, but I will do it to eliminate the possibility. Once I replace that what should I be looking at next?
PS: I did pull the fuse next to the battery and that was in good shape.

[blaine]

When you are coming up on the compression stroke there should be more resistance.When you come up past compression you are on the "power" stroke and resistance should be less.What concerns me is with the spark plug out the engine should spin easily with the bike in gear.Before you buy a battery,you should try it on a boost,without the vehicle running.That will give it plenty of current to spin over.
:)

[mrlmd1]

Why don't you just jump start the bike with the battery from a NON-RUNNING car and see if everything works. That's a whole lot simpler place to begin than what you are doing. The clicking could just be the starter motor not getting enough juice. If the battery is that dead, you may not be able to start it with a running clutch-pop because your spark is way too weak.
You could also a bad starter solenoid and the starter is not being energized.
Anyone want to bet the problem is a bad battery?

[jdbaum3]

Borrowed some jumper cables today and tried jumping from my car. I got a louder more forceful click, but still no attempt to turn over at the engine. If I was able to turn the engine with a wrench this should be an electrical problem and not an engine problem correct? Is the next logical step to teach myself to use a voltmeter and trace the starting circuit from the battery onward? Thanks for all the help and suggestions so far!

[blaine]

Borrowed some jumper cables today and tried jumping from my car. I got a louder more forceful click, but still no attempt to turn over at the engine. If I was able to turn the engine with a wrench this should be an electrical problem and not an engine problem correct? Is the next logical step to teach myself to use a voltmeter and trace the starting circuit from the battery onward? Thanks for all the help and suggestions so far!

Yes.If you can turn engine over easily with a wrench.It still seem strange that bike drags the back wheel,when you try to push start it.In second or third gear it should spin the engine easily.
:??: :)

[geezer]

check your starter if its getting power, if so replace it and check the gears that the starter engages your gonna have to remove the left side cover to see them(left whil sitting on bike)

[mrlmd1]

With the bike in neutral, the clutch pulled in to make sure, jump directly to the starter + terminal from the good car battery, - cable to a good grounding point, and see if the starter spins.. If it doesn't spin, you need a new starter. If the starter spins (and the bike starts with the switch in the RUN position) then you may need a new starter solenoid. Like geezer said, in the Bendix type drive from the starter to the engine, all those gears could be messed up and it's locked up and you may have to look at that. Shouldn't be too hard to isolate the problem if you go stepwise and check each component in the line.

[Water Warrior 2]

Just a thought. Old British cars used to get a locked up starter as a fact of life. Turning the the starter opposite of normal would unlock it. On the GZ just roll it backwards in 2nd or 3rd gear and dump the clutch. Might work, might not but it is a free test and easy to do.

[jdbaum3]

Alright, finally got some time to work on it again. I put in a new fully charged battery and tried bypassing the starter relay and hooking the starter directly to the battery as suggested above and in the service manual. I again got a click, but nothing more. Just to see, I tried Water's suggestion, and again it just locked up the rear wheel in both second and third with no indication that the engine wants to turn over. So that isolates the problem to the starter and the gear interface between it and the motor correct? And given the fact that the engine doesn't seem to want to turn with the wheel am I correct in thinking it's most likely the gear interface? I'm not looking forward to digging into the bottom end of this thing, but I suppose it's the only way to learn.

[jdbaum3]

Thanks for all the help guys, found out tonight what the problem was. I finally got an oil pan so I could drain the oil and take off the left side cover. Inside behind the starter driven gear a screw or bolt has backed out and wedged itself in tight between the case wall and the starter driven gear. So the next question is, has anybody had any luck pulling the starter driven gear without the special Rotor Holder and Rotor Remover tools? I don't feel like taking it to a shop for something so seemingly simple, but I also don't feel like dropping $200 into tools that I'll use only on this job. The girlfriend is itching to start riding again though and I hate to delay it much further!

[Water Warrior 2]

Never heard of that situation before. You will be the resident expert next time round. Good luck and post some pics if possible so we can see more of the action.

[blaine]

So the next question is, has anybody had any luck pulling the starter driven gear without the special Rotor Holder and Rotor Remover tools?
A simple strap wrench will hold the rotor from turning.But you will need a puller to remove the rotor with out damage.A puller is fairly cheap.The special holder is expensive,and not needed.
:cool: :)

[Water Warrior 2]

Another resident expert. Never would have thought of that.

[jdbaum3]

Thanks Blaine, that's exactly what I needed to know! Searching the forums it seems that this has happened on at least two other bikes, but I haven't seen write-ups on the resolution on either. I will try to take some pictures as I go through pulling the rotor and starter driven gear. There is some metal shavings in the bottom side of that case, probably from when I was turning the engine over with a wrench, so I will need to evaluate the damage and make sure everything will still be useable. Again thanks for all the tips and advice everyone, it truly is appreciated!