Intermittent Starting

[emt200x]

Ok, I recently ha an issue with my 2007 GZ250 that I wanted to share here in case the info can be of use to others.

After winter the battery was dead/dying. I had to jump start it for about a week before replacing the battery. During that week the neutral light was going in and out. Sometimes it would come on in neutral, sometimes not. On Friday of that week, I went to jump it, and nothing happened. I was scared. I knew the battery was dying so I replaced it, but the fact that it didn't fire up when I tried to jump it the last time still lingered in the back of my head. Something still wasn't right. New battery did nothing. So a buddy of mine came over to the house to take a look at it. We took that tank off and proceeded to poke around, ensuring electrical connections were clean/tight, etc. Out of nowhere, the neutral light comes back on at this point, and the push start fires it up. *Celebrations* It continued to fire up most days. One day it didn't, so I jiggled some of the wires, pushed the button again and all was well - fired up. At some point I noticed that the kickstand was also killing the bike when it was in neutral. Not good. That combined with the intermittent neutral light made me think that there was some kind of short somewhere on one of the sensors or something. Maybe that's what was causing it to 'not start' - the bike was in neutral, all was good, but maybe it 'thought' it was in first or one of the other safety switches was not letting it start. I finally took it in to the shop, and it turns out it was the neutral light bulb itself. I guess the connections (in the bulb) were strung up just enough to start sometimes and light up at others. Not sure, but replacing the bulb solved it all. Starts every time, light works, kickstand no longer kills it in neutral. *Celebrations*

[alanmcorcoran]

Good to know. My neutral light is sometimes on and sometimes not but I've not had any trouble starting maybe because I always start the bike with the kickstand up and the clutch pulled in. Always start all my bikes that way. I think it is safest. I don't trust the neutral light. I general roll backward between my parked 4W vehicles, start up in the street, drop it into first and off I go.

[BillInGA]

Those intermittent electrical problems can be a real headache. Glad it was an easy fix for you.

BTW, where is Houost?

[JWR]

I would bet Houst is short for Houston???

[emt200x]

Haha, yes it's Houston. Unfortunately, I have to cancel celebrations a second time - it wouldn't start this morning - WTF. I was so sure we were good once the kickstand stopped killing it after the bulb replacement. The tech who replaced it said that it acts like a fuse in a way - which made sense in a way. So the whole problem isn't solved yet, but the bulb *had* to be part of it given what it fixed on the kickstand switch. Anyway, I'm taking it back to that shop this afternoon(in walking distance...), and will update what we find here. Any ideas before then would be greatly appreciated. :)

*facepalm*

[mrlmd1]

I wasn't aware that the neutral light is in series with the starting circuit, acting as a "fuse". Have to check the wiring diagram to see that.
Bypass the kickstand switch and see if the bike starts. If it does, then your switch may be faulty or dirty.
There is also another safety switch in the clutch handle which has to be pulled in to start the bike.

[alantf]

I really doubt that the bulb had anything to do with the problem. It just isn't logical. What I think (and it's just a guess at best :) ) is that by pure coincidence the side stand (or whatever you find to be the problem) just decided to behave itself at the same time as you replaced the bulb - pure coincidence - as happens quite frequently with things electrical/electronic. If you go to the manual that's posted on this site you'll find electrical drawings to show you where to put the shorts across each component in the starting circuit (safety devices) to find out which of them is faulty. One of the most frequent problems is the red cut out switch. rocking this on/off a few times, or cleaning it has solved the problem for a lot of us. I'm not saying that this is the problem but it's a likely place to start, followed by the side stand switch & clutch switch. Good luck & good hunting. :2tup:

BTW, the tech who said that the bulb acts like a fuse is -well, Um, Er, "not to be trusted". Any other good shops you could take it to? :tdown:

[blaine]

BTW, the tech who said that the bulb acts like a fuse is -well, Um, Er, "not to be trusted". Any other good shops you could take it to? :tdown:

It didn't make any sense to me either.I'm with Alantf. :plus1:

[Water Warrior 2]

BTW, the tech who said that the bulb acts like a fuse is -well, Um, Er, "not to be trusted". Any other good shops you could take it to? :tdown:

It didn't make any sense to me either.I'm with Alantf. :plus1:
When I read this earlier I couldn't think of anything polite to say about the tech. The bulb will act as an indicator, that is it's job. It is not designed to act as a fuse and I doubt very much the wiring harness is designed to allow the fuse function.

[BillInGA]

BTW, the tech who said that the bulb acts like a fuse is -well, Um, Er, "not to be trusted". Any other good shops you could take it to? :tdown:

It didn't make any sense to me either.I'm with Alantf. :plus1:
When I read this earlier I couldn't think of anything polite to say about the tech. The bulb will act as an indicator, that is it's job. It is not designed to act as a fuse and I doubt very much the wiring harness is designed to allow the fuse function.

It acts as a fuse in the sense that it's failure interrupts the neutral switch's circuit to the side-stand relay. If the neutral light is not illuminated, then the side-stand relay thinks the bike is not in neutral. However, the bulb is not a fuse and doesn't function as such. Not the clearest way to explain an open circuit.

[alantf]

It acts as a fuse in the sense that it's failure interrupts the neutral switch's circuit to the side-stand relay. If the neutral light is not illuminated, then the side-stand relay thinks the bike is not in neutral. However, the bulb is not a fuse and doesn't function as such. Not the clearest way to explain an open circuit.

Sorry to disagree, but I've just been over the circuit diagram.

The neutral indicator light goes to a common point. When the neutral switch is closed it allows current to pass to earth (-ve) via both the indicator light & the side stand relay energizing coil. They are separate circuits with a common neutral. There are also diodes to stop each circuit back feeding the other.

Anyhow, just imagine - would anyone design a bike that couldn't be started in the middle of nowhere, at midnight, in the rain, if a bulb blew? :cry:

[Water Warrior 2]

Anyhow, just imagine - would anyone design a bike that couldn't be started in the middle of nowhere, at midnight, in the rain, if a bulb blew? :cry:

That would about the time I wanted to meet the electrical designer and shake his hand. Maybe even shake his hand hard enough to rip off his arm and club him senseless.

[emt200x]

Micro Saga continues. I got home today, did absolutely nothing to the bike except gave it a very serious look for a moment or two, then attempted to start it precisely as I always do - fired right up. Eff Me. So, not taking it back right now. I have, however, taken the casing for the red kill switch apart and doused it with electrical solvent, and the connections for the clutch switch. If I run into this again, I'll try and bridge that clutch switch with a paperclip and see what happens. Thanks for all the advice. Will update as things progress.

[Water Warrior 2]

While the electrical solvent is handy you might have a go at the side stand switch. While the bike is parked you can easily get to the switch from the right hand side of the bike. There is a plunger to lube and exercise and maybe connectors to check for tightness and corrosion. Electrical Gremlins are a challenge but luckily the GZ is fairly simple and straight forward.

[emt200x]

Thanks, one question about that kickstand switch now that I think about it. It shouldn't matter that it's down if the bike is in neutral, right? How would that affect it's starting if the bike is in neutral(and the indicator light agrees with that fact)?

[Water Warrior 2]

Thanks, one question about that kickstand switch now that I think about it. It shouldn't matter that it's down if the bike is in neutral, right? How would that affect it's starting if the bike is in neutral(and the indicator light agrees with that fact)?
The bike will start with the stand in the down position but only if it is in neutral. You must always pull in the clutch to start the bike. The bike will also start in gear with the stand up and clutch pulled in. This is handy if/when you stall at a traffic light or have a senior moment.

[alanmcorcoran]

If the bike is in neutral do you have to have the clutch pulled in?

[alantf]

If the bike is in neutral do you have to have the clutch pulled in?

You most certainly DO!

The starting circuit goes through the ignition switch, the red kill switch, the clutch switch, & the side stand relay. If the side stand is down, the bike will start with the clutch pulled in (switch closed) but as soon as you let the clutch out, the engine will cut out.

[blaine]

If the bike is in neutral do you have to have the clutch pulled in?

You most certainly DO!

The starting circuit goes through the ignition switch, the red kill switch, the clutch switch, & the side stand relay. If the side stand is down, the bike will start with the clutch pulled in (switch closed) but as soon as you let the clutch out, the engine will cut out.
The bike will only cut out if you go to put it in gear with the side stand down.The bike will not cut out in neutral when you let the clutch out, as you don't need to hold the clutch in when the bike is warming up.
:) :)

[alantf]

The bike will only cut out if you go to put it in gear with the side stand down.The bike will not cut out in neutral when you let the clutch out, as you don't need to hold the clutch in when the bike is warming up.
:) :)

Sorry, my error! :cry: You're quite correct. I knew what I meant, but didn't mean what I wrote, if you know what I mean. :blush:

[blaine]

Sorry, my error! :cry: You're quite correct. I knew what I meant, but didn't mean what I wrote, if you know what I mean. :blush:

Yea,I know what you mean.Been there,done that. :tongue: :roll:

[mrlmd1]

So basically, like we all said, the bad bulb has nothing to do with the starter circuit.
My bet is on dirt in the side stand switch - just make sure you clean/lube that one up too and maye all you problems will go away. The most aggravating thing about this is the uncertainty of whether or not you found it, but lubing all those switches will get the one responsible.

[Water Warrior 2]

If the bike is in neutral do you have to have the clutch pulled in?
Alan you have to pull the clutch in to start all 3 of your bikes. It's the law and lawyer speak for cover our a$$.

[blaine]

If the bike is in neutral do you have to have the clutch pulled in?
Alan you have to pull the clutch in to start all 3 of your bikes. It's the law and lawyer speak for cover our a$$.

Same thing with your cage if it's a manual shift.Clutch must be pushed in,doesn't matter if it's in netural or not.
:) :cool:

[alantf]

Same thing with your cage if it's a manual shift.Clutch must be pushed in,doesn't matter if it's in netural or not.


:) :cool:

Mmmmmmmmm, I've been driving manual cars, for over 45 years, in England & Spain. Never, ever, had to push the clutch in when starting. Must be one of those American, nanny, laws. How about in Canada? :??:

[blaine]

Mmmmmmmmm, I've been driving manual cars, for over 45 years, in England & Spain. Never, ever, had to push the clutch in when starting. Must be one of those American, nanny, laws. How about in Canada? :??:

I'm from Canada. :poke2: :tongue:

[Water Warrior 2]

Same nanny laws here too. In fact we start some and wait for the U.S. to play catch up. We have had daytime running lights(DRL) since 1990. My Bronco had home built DRLs in 1988.

[alantf]

I remember, many years ago, in England, that Volvos had headlights that were lit up all the time, due to the Swedish laws (where they were built). There were so many complaints that they had to eventually omit them from the British models.

[Water Warrior 2]

Volvo did that here too. They were always on and when the engine was started the power surge from the alternator would blow the bulbs. One would think the Volvo folks would have had a reduced power supply for DRLs to prevent a lights out situation.

[5th_bike]

Mmmmmmmmm, I've been driving manual cars, for over 45 years, in England & Spain. Never, ever, had to push the clutch in when starting. Must be one of those American, nanny, laws.

Right.
My driving instructor in The Netherlands, many years ago: "...and if your car ever gets stranded on the highway with an engine failure, put it in second gear and use the starter motor to pull off the road." :)

Now, in the USA: "The car will only start if you step on the clutch pedal" :retard:

Nice to know though, it's an easy 'fix'. Just short the switch, it's right at the pedal. Did it once, so far.

[Water Warrior 2]

On the early GM products with the clutch interlock we had a 10 cent fix. Unplug a connector and stuff in a dime. On GM's early early efforts you had to have the transmission in reverse and the clutch pushed down. That was handy if you stalled in traffic.

[blaine]

On GM's early early efforts you had to have the transmission in reverse and the clutch pushed down. That was handy if you stalled in traffic.

That's right too.I had forgot about that nightmare!!
:tongue: O_o