Exhaust leak

[Rick]

Wow, this thing sounds like a Harley! It's leaking at the bottom at one of the weld points. If I don't fix this immediately will it screw something up?

Thanks

[patrick_777]

Be aware that there is a drain hole on the bottom that allows the exhaust to drip out water that condenses in there. It does quickly become a rust farm.

If there is a definite leak, then your mileage will suffer, but nothing catastrophic is going to happen. you could take it to a fab shop and have someone spot weld a piece over it...would probably be really cheap and take about 3 minutes.

[bonehead]

Wow, this thing sounds like a Harley! It's leaking at the bottom at one of the weld points. If I don't fix this immediately will it screw something up?

Thanks
So, you finally got it running?

[Rick]

Thanks for the responses.

@Bonehead....shit no. Well, it runs great after I push start it. I've been tinkering with it (with help from the service manual and a neighbor electrician) and it might be the side stand relay (he said the diode in it appeared to be faulty) so I ordered one off of ebay for $5.00. It should be here later this week. I also hit all of the safety switches and connecting points with contact cleaner but that didn't seem to help. If this relay thing doesn't work I'll be buggin' you to take a look. Gettin' to Austin on a weekend can be a challenge but it's about time I made it a priority (if'n you're still willing).

[bonehead]

Thanks for the responses.

@Bonehead....shit no. Well, it runs great after I push start it. I've been tinkering with it (with help from the service manual and a neighbor electrician) and it might be the side stand relay (he said the diode in it appeared to be faulty) so I ordered one off of ebay for $5.00. It should be here later this week. I also hit all of the safety switches and connecting points with contact cleaner but that didn't seem to help. If this relay thing doesn't work I'll be buggin' you to take a look. Gettin' to Austin on a weekend can be a challenge but it's about time I made it a priority (if'n you're still willing).
If it's a nice day, I just might take a ride to Driftwood! :)
Mechanical is my strong point, electrical, not as good. Some times i can pull one out tho'. Hope the side stand relay fixes the prob.

[Rick]

it is a nice little cruise if you go the backroads

[bonehead]

it is a nice little cruise if you go the backroads
Definately, side roads, this thing wont carry me too fast.

[Rick]

oh and that part came in today, just plugged it in and still nothing :cuss:

[jonathan180iq]

I was gonna say, if you can push start it and get it running, and it works fine, then its certainly not the side stand switch.
A bad side switch would cut it off once you push started it as well.

What happens when you push the start button?

[Rick]

When I turn the key the headlight, turn signals and horn all work. But when I press the start button nothing happens, no click no nothing. I tested the battery and it's fine. When I get it started it'll run all day (I routinely make 50+ mile trips to Austin and back). This started as in intermittent problem, but now I'm pretty much push starting it all the time.

[bonehead]

Does the GZ have a starter relay?

[bonehead]

When I turn the key the headlight, turn signals and horn all work. But when I press the start button nothing happens, no click no nothing. I tested the battery and it's fine. When I get it started it'll run all day (I routinely make 50+ mile trips to Austin and back). This started as in intermittent problem, but now I'm pretty much push starting it all the time.
Really starting to sound like the start button to me.

[mrlmd1]

Is your battery fully charged? Do the lights go on when you turn on the ignition key? Are they bright?
Does the starter turn over when you hit the start button? Does the relay click or the starter motor click?
Did you try and jump it from a NON-RUNNING car battery?
Did you try and jump the starter switch and relay with 12V applied through heavy battery cables right to the starter to see if the starter motor is good?
You have the other switch in the RUN position I presume.
First things first before you go and replace all sorts of parts without first trying to find the problem. If it starts and runs by pushing it, it can't be any of those things you are looking at. You have to first see if the battery is charged, check that the switch works, check if there's voltage being applied to the starter, that the starter works, and go down the line. It's unlikely any of those things are bad and I bet you have a dead battery.

[Rick]

It does have a starter relay. I haven't tested that. It might well be the starter switch as well, or the kill switch (all part of the same assembly). That part is a little more complicated to put in (a couple of spots to solder and I don't have a soldering iron). I was hoping to test some of these things before just buying all the pieces one by one but I don't really know the ins and outs of testing this stuff, although I'm pretty good at following instructions (the ones in the manual aren't exactly crystal clear). I also have a multimeter.

[mrlmd1]

Did you read my post above the one you just posted as I posted mine?

[Rick]

Is your battery fully charged? Do the lights go on when you turn on the ignition key? Are they bright? Yes, battery works fine, lights are bright, horn is loud

Does the starter turn over when you hit the start button? Does the relay click or the starter motor click? No sound at all

Did you try and jump it from a NON-RUNNING car battery?
Haven't tried that

Did you try and jump the starter switch and relay with 12V applied through heavy battery cables right to the starter to see if the starter motor is good?
No, but when the starter motor kicks on it works fine, that's why I'm thinking it's electrical. I wouldn't know how to do that

You have the other switch in the RUN position I presume.
Yes, double and triple checked that every time

First things first before you go and replace all sorts of parts without first trying to find the problem. If it starts and runs by pushing it, it can't be any of those things you are looking at. You have to first see if the battery is charged, check that the switch works, check if there's voltage being applied to the starter, that the starter works, and go down the line. It's unlikely any of those things are bad and I bet you have a dead battery.
Tested the battery yesterday, it's about 2 years old and read 12.5 with no load. Before it completely stopped working I'd press the switch and nothing. An hour later I'd press the switch and it starts right up. That's why I think it's a switch or connection somewhere, but I've been known to be wrong.

[bonehead]

Rick, fully charged 12v batteries will have over 13v static. I think PART of your problem is not a fully charged battery.

[mrlmd1]

Spray some more contact cleaner into the starter switch and run/stop switch and turn them on and off a number of times back and forth to try and clean the contacts.
If it starts sometimes, you may have some moisture or dirty contacts in the switches. Also check your battery contacts + and - and make sure they're free of corrosion.
To bypass the starter switch and relay - Try to hook up some heavy duty battery cables to the + terminal on the starter and - to the frame or engine somewhere, Connect the - cable to the - battery post and then momentarily touch the + to the good battery and see if the starter turns over. If so, turn the key on, make sure the bike's in neutral, hold in the clutch, and with the help of someone else, do that again and see if the bike starts. If it does, then the problem is either your starter switch being dirty, or your battery is discharged enough not to start the bike, or the starter solenoid is shot (doubtful).

[jonathan180iq]

I was gonna suggest the same.
Shoot something conductive behind the starter switch and see what happens.

[Rick]

Awesome, thanks. First thing tomorrow I'll hook it up to the trickle charger just to make certain that the battery is fully charged. And go from there.

[Rick]

Ok everyone, I'm an idiot. But hey, at least I'm an enlightened idiot! :retard:
Charged up the battery to full charge and it starts right up. Just like everyone has been trying to tell me......

[jonathan180iq]

http://assets.sbnation.com/imported_assets/27918/sloth-goonies.jpg

EDIT: Congrats, BTW.

[Rick]

but without the pointy ears

[bonehead]

CONGRATS, Rick.

[mrlmd1]

You're welcome.
These bikes are very reliable and parts usually do not break or screw up unless they're tinkered with. It's usually the simple but not very obvious or usually ignored things that cause the problems. You have to start from the beginning in an organized fashion to find and fix the problem, just as with everything else.
Glad you got it running and all's well. Now just change the oil when at the appropriate interval, put some Berryman's or Seafoam in every 3 or 4 filllups, keep the battery charged up in the cold weather, and ride the damn thing. :)

[patrick_777]

and ride the damn thing. :)


This is the most important part.

[Rick]

Oh it definitely gets plenty of riding! Almost daily, regardless of weather.

So, say I get 5 starts after charging, then nothing again....bad battery?

[jonathan180iq]

Cross that bridge when you come to it.

If it's the original battery, I would replace it anyway. Your on an 07, right? 4 years on SLA is getting close to quitting time.

[Rick]

Cross that bridge when you come to it.

If it's the original battery, I would replace it anyway. Your on an 07, right? 4 years on SLA is getting close to quitting time.

Ugh! Unfortunately I'm already there. It started fine right after charging. Then awhile ago I started it up and rode about 10 miles, made a couple of stops, and after the last stop it wouldn't start.

The battery is not the original. I got it at batteries plus about 2 years ago, and use a battery tender on it about once a month (the last time being this morning)

[jonathan180iq]

hmmm.... have someone rev the bike while you test to make sure it's charging. A simple volt meter can do this.

When I had a volt gauge on my bike, I got about 13.7 volts while riding. Make sure your bike is charging before you replace the battery. And if you are getting charge, then you know it's time to toss that little black acid box.

[Rick]

I'll try that and see what I get.

thanks

[mrlmd1]

Put it on the charger for 6-8 hours at least to fully charge it then bring it to a battery store or a garage and have it load tested. That's the only way to see if it's any good.
You might be using more juice to start it 5 times a day then recharging it if you are taking very short trips as the charging system in the GZ is pretty puny., plus it's cold now.
You can check if your alternator/magneto/whatever you want to call it is working OK if you start the bike with a fully charged battery and measure the voltage at the battery terminals with the engine running at least 2500-3000 rpm and see if it's putting out 13.5-14V. If it's not up in that range, you may not be charging the battery. But it sounds like your battery is on the way out.
A warning not to be ignored - if you do buy a new AGM battery which is what's recommended for the bike, make sure you charge it up fully before you use it for the first time or it will never hold a full charge and you will have the same problem you have now and will be back at the battery store real quick. Regardless of what you are told at the store by the dealer, that it's all set to go, charge it up first before you use it. If you don't do that you'll be sorry.

[blaine]

Ugh! Unfortunately I'm already there. It started fine right after charging. Then awhile ago I started it up and rode about 10 miles, made a couple of stops, and after the last stop it wouldn't start.

The battery is not the original. I got it at batteries plus about 2 years ago, and use a battery tender on it about once a month (the last time being this morning)
Sounds like you have a charging problem.If you don't have a meter,a quick test is if bike is charging the headlight should brighten up when you rev the bike and dim at idle.If not than your bike is not charging.
:2tup: :)

[jonathan180iq]

Sounds like you have a charging problem.If you don't have a meter,a quick test is if bike is charging the headlight should brighten up when you rev the bike and dim at idle.If not than your bike is not charging.
:2tup: :)

:plus1: That's even easier than whipping out the volt meter.

[Rick]

Sounds like you have a charging problem.If you don't have a meter,a quick test is if bike is charging the headlight should brighten up when you rev the bike and dim at idle.If not than your bike is not charging.
:2tup: :)

:plus1: That's even easier than whipping out the volt meter.

Ok, just did that and I didn't see any difference at idle versus revved. I guess I'll verify that with a volt meter when I get home.
Question though - if I've been making 50+ mile trips after push starts wouldn't the battery just drain down to dead from the headlight and other electrics running for all that time?

[blaine]

You may be only charging enough to keep battery from going completly dead.Your meter will tell the tail.But with the headlight not getting brighter is a sure sign of a charging problem.
:) :cool:

[Rick]

Ok, here are some fresh observations:

Push started the bike, rode it home (2 miles).
Put meter on battery, ~12.4
hooked it to battery tender, took about 20 minutes to charge (was below 80% per the red solid light)
put meter on battery, ~12.9 - 13.0
tried to start bike, no go
push started bike and hooked up meter, ~13.7 at idle, ~13.55 revved (yes I checked this several times, it would start to tick down as RPM increased each time). There was no increase in headlight intensity as engine was revved
Killed engine, battery measured ~12.5 immediately thereafter

So, is it possible that the battery is holding a charge, but not quite enough of a charge to start the motor? I guess I'll take it to Autozone tomorrow to be tested.

Thanks for everyone's input!

[JWR]

Yes

[jonathan180iq]

Take it and get it load tested.

Test it right after charging and then again about 30 minutes later and see if you're losing juice somewhere.

[blaine]

It possibly your battery.But if charging properly you should be able to see headlight brighten & dim,unless it is really bright out.
:) :??:

[jonathan180iq]

Ok, just did that and I didn't see any difference at idle versus revved. I guess I'll verify that with a volt meter when I get home.
Question though - if I've been making 50+ mile trips after push starts wouldn't the battery just drain down to dead from the headlight and other electrics running for all that time?

No, the battery wouldn't drop down to dead because the whole time you are riding the bike's "alternator" is taking care of the electrics. That's why your bike runs fine once you get it started.

You aren't having problems with the start button are you? I mean, when you mash it, the starter does turn the engine over a little bit, right?

[Rick]

No, the battery wouldn't drop down to dead because the whole time you are riding the bike's "alternator" is taking care of the electrics. That's why your bike runs fine once you get it started.

You aren't having problems with the start button are you? I mean, when you mash it, the starter does turn the engine over a little bit, right?[/quote]

Actually when I press the start button there is dead silence. That's why all along I was thinking it was an electrical problem versus battery problem. Maybe it's a little of both.

[jonathan180iq]

Ok, another quick and free test:

Push start the bike and get it running. While idling in neutral, just quick bump the starter button.
You should get some noise from the starter to at least verify that your starter and starter button are working fine. I doubt these are an issue, but you need to cover all of these bases.

Also, to check if maybe you have a short somewhere, disconnect the positive lead from the battery and then reattach it. (bike off and key out) If the lead sparks when you reattach it, then you have a short somewhere that would be slowly draining the battery each time you stop.

Just two simple things to eliminate variable.

[mrlmd1]

You are measuring a "surface charge" if you measure the voltage immediately after charging the battery. A more accurate measurement is 1/2 hr. later.
If you are getting 13.5 V with the bike running, your charging system is OK and is not the problem. All that voltage and current is trying to go into a discharged battery and may not brighten the headlight when you rev the bike.
Like I said before, put the battery on a charger for a few hours, take it and get it load tested.
You are just measuring voltage, you have no idea of the cold cranking capacity of the battery - it may be shot and a load test is the only way to see that.
You can buy your own load tester for about $15 in Harbor Freight - it's basically like a stovetop or oven coil which is connected across the battery terminals and heats up for 10 sec. then you measure the voltage and battery charge. Any garage or battery store will test your battery for free (because they would like to sell you another one).
Also check your ground connection and connection at the starter for corrosion - you may be losing a lot of current through there.
And don't forget what I said - if you do get a new AGM battery, you better fully charge it for 6 hrs or so before you use it for the first time or the battery will be screwed forever.

[Rick]

The bike started fine this morning after sitting on the trickle charger all night. But as I'm holding the meter leads on the battery terminals I can see it ticking down slowly. So I'll let it sit for a couple hours then try it again.

@jonathan - I did that test for a short and there was no spark

I guess if it won't start after sitting for awhile, I'll try to jump it off of a non-running car battery to verify that the starter button and starter are ok.

Then I'll fully charge the battery again and head to Autozone

Thanks

[jonathan180iq]

After sitting all night, did you start it with the starter?
If so, then scratch the starter tests, you're done with them.

At idle, it's normal for your battery to lose a little bit. It's not charging unless you are actually riding.

[alantf]

While idling in neutral, just quick bump the starter button.
You should get some noise from the starter to at least verify that your starter and starter button are working fine.

But, make sure you're holding the clutch lever in when you do this. The starter won't do anything with the cluth lever out, due to an interlock.

BTW, my headlight dims slightly while starting, but I've never seen it come brighter when revving. The voltage regulator takes care of that.

[jonathan180iq]

Mine always got brighter.

[blaine]

Mine always got brighter.
:plus1: :rawk:

[mrlmd1]

The bike should be running 2500 rpm or more to have any positive effect on battery voltage. If you are measuring the voltage at idle, the battery may be slowly discharging just to keep the bike running and lights on. You are making yourself nuts by testing things that are erroneous and giving you bad information.
You already measured 13,5-13.7V with the bike at fast idle, slow idle will deplete the battery. Stop already, reread the previous advice and charge up the battery and get it load tested. Your starter and switches are fine - why is that so hard to understand that your battery is probably the problem and that has to be resolved?
Nothing else you are doing will help you in any way until you determine the health of your battery.

[patrick_777]

Nothing else you are doing will help you in any way until you determine the health of your battery.

:plus1: In fact, it's likely to lead you astray.

[Rick]

2 separate load tests at 2 different places say the battery is good. Fully charged I'm still getting a handful of starts then nothing. Unless anyone has any better ideas I guess I'll just go get a battery hope it works for more than a day.

Thanks

[JWR]

If my GZ did not start right off, I would turn off and on the kill swtch, then it always started.

Just one of those weird things that you never knew when it would do it.

[blaine]

If my GZ did not start right off, I would turn off and on the kill swtch, then it always started.

Just one of those weird things that you never knew when it would do it.
Mine used to do it too,turn it off and on a couple of times,and it would fire right up.
:) :cool:

[alantf]

If my GZ did not start right off, I would turn off and on the kill swtch, then it always started.

Just one of those weird things that you never knew when it would do it.

:plus1:

[bonehead]

If my GZ did not start right off, I would turn off and on the kill swtch, then it always started.

Just one of those weird things that you never knew when it would do it.

:plus1:
:plus1:

[mrlmd1]

Just for laughs - you're not turning the bike off and leaving the key switch in the Park position with the tail light on, are you? That will just drain down the battery. Make sure when you turn off the bike the key switch is in the right Off position and the tail light is not on when you walk away from it.
Also, like you were told before, spray some WD40 and then contact cleaner into the switches and work them back and forth a few times to clean them up.

[bonehead]

I don't want to get into a pissin' match here, but I think you should use contact cleaner instead of WD-40. It has been my experience that if you really want to screw something up, or make it rust, use WD-40. WD has a tendancy to attract dirt and grime.
Just MY preference.

[Rick]

I've since done the following:
opened up the killswitch/start switch assembly and sprayed with contact cleaner
tried jumping it from a car battery - nuthin
charged the battery again and tried starting it

So, now that the battery has checked out I'm thinking a bad/intermittently working starter switch. If it was the kill switch, it wouldn't run when push started, right? I looked at the page in the manual on how to test the switches, but I'm not sure what the "continuity" setting is my the multimeter (not to mention how to get the leads in there)

[music man]

I think you should use contact cleaner instead of WD-40.



:plus1: While WD-40 is good for a lot of things, cleaning electrical contacts is definitely not one of its strong suits.

[mrlmd1]

I also said contact cleaner. Sometimes the WD40, aside from being more immediately available, will clean it up altho it's temporary and can leave an undesirable film on something. Contact cleaner is the ultimate solution.
It could also be the starter solenoid, a bad corroded connection somewhere, a bad ignition switch, a bad safety interlock switch, and I assume you are not forgetting to hold in the clutch when you try and start it. Have you opened the headlight bucket to check if there are any frayed/shorted wires in there?
Did you try and apply voltage right to the starter (with battery cables) to see if it turns over? You checked all the fuses including the main fuse?
If you can find the starter solenoid, you should be able to test if any voltage is applied there when you hit the start button, and if so, if any voltage is coming out the other end going to the starter motor. That should give you some clue that the problem is before the solenoid, ie. in one of the switches - starter, ignition, cutoff, sidestand, or clutch.

[music man]

I also said contact cleaner.


I totally missed that part of your post somehow the first time I read it.

[alantf]

I'm not sure what the "continuity" setting is my the multimeter

That's the resistance (ohms) setting. Try the 200 ohm setting first. :)

[jonathan180iq]

You checked for loose grounds to the frame?
Hard to go from perfectly good to suddenly nothing, especially if you have verified that your starter/kill contacts are clean, unless you have a loose ground connection somewhere.

Pull the seat and the tank and give the whole bike a once over, tightening all nuts, bolts and screws. (Even if that's not the problem, it's good to do every now and then.)

[5th_bike]

... I'm not sure what the "continuity" setting is my the multimeter .... how to get the leads in there

"Continuity" on the old multimeters with a multi-setting dial switch, usually adjacent to the 'ohms', marked "cont." or similar.
Or, if you have a more modern one with some kind of a 'mode' push button, push it until 'cont." appears in the LCD screen.

The leads in:
... the multimeter: red in "+", black in "-"
... the switch: not necessary, just measure using the wires that connect to the switch.

Then, FWIW check under the tank for any wires touching the cylinder head - when I got my bike it kept blowing fuses, because one of the wires touched the cylinder head and the plastic insulation was melted off.