Found a practical car for Water Warrior

[alanmcorcoran]

One of my friends talked me into going to the LA Car show Friday. Not really my thing, but I did stumble across a practical little four wheeler for WW (he's been thinking about hanging up his saddle...)
http://s3.postimage.org/2f4pojwzo/DSC02505.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/2f4pojwzo/)

[Water Warrior 2]

Thanks but no thanks Alan. Nice looking but not my style. I need more function than form in my cages. And I doubt is would be less than $5000 a year to insure up here.

[alanmcorcoran]

You could perhaps insure one of the wheels for 5K a year... I think the one you see in the picture (c-X75) is the only one there is. It's a hybrid! each wheel has its own electric motor. Then there's some fancy assed mid-chassis turbo business. 0-60 in 3.4 seconds - and it's quite nice looking too.

[Water Warrior 2]

A one -off concept car is all I don't need. Electrically driven wheels were done generations ago but they didn't have the modern electronics to work with. Hence...failure in the end.
If I had much more than my pension cheques I would rather have an old Jag XKE. Beautiful cars and I know there are shops in Vancouver to keep them running.
I do wish the auto industry would quit with the outrageous concept cars. They are nothing but an exercise in engineering that ultimately leads nowhere. Even a well thought out hybrid is hard to rationalize if you don't have a reason to drive a lot and the $ to buy one in the first place. A Civic hybrid doesn't hit the breakeven point for about 7 years. How many drivers want the same set of wheels for 7 years ? It is all fine and dandy to be kind to the environment but most folks can't afford it.

What we need is some one to develop a good foolproof steam car.

[alanmcorcoran]

How about this one?... it's a little less ostentatious - probably gets better mileage than the Jag...

http://s4.postimage.org/1hupjzpd0/DSC02472.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/1hupjzpd0/)

[Water Warrior 2]

Pretty cool little car Alan. I do think I would be looking for something a little less off the wall though. The Nissan Cube is an interesting vehicle that is gaining popularity but I'm not sure if even one of those would work for me. I'm just one of those old fuddy duddies that is apt to go with a more traditional set of wheels. Hence the Ranger for a little utility and acceptable comfort level. I spent years whinning and planing to get a Taurus till I finally got one. Great car but not for me, I'm a trucky kinda guy.
I would guess my choice of bikes reflects my tastes. Vstroms can do everything well but not perfectly, works for me.

[alantf]

What we need is some one to develop a good foolproof steam car.

Whatever happened to the Stanley Steamer? Not "foolproof" I guess. (There's an old engineering saying "anyone can make something foolproof. Nobody can make something bloody fool proof" :cry: ) Reckon there's too many people who could manage to blow themselves up with a steamer.

[Water Warrior 2]

I think a foolproof steam car could be made with proper safe guards and modern technology. Heat the boiler with propane or natural gas and top up the water res. Maybe even a steam powered generator for a hybrid with motors at each wheel.
The old Stanley Steamers were a work of art. As a youngster I talked to a fellow who had one. He said it had fantastic power and could start out on a steep incline with no real effort at all. A big car with steam heat in the winter and very comfortable. 70 MPH was a cruising speed on regular roads and there was no noise except the tires going around. This was at a time when most cars would barely do 70 top speed.

[burkbuilds]

My wife got a Nissan Cube about a year and a half ago and she loves it. That thing has an amazing amount of headroom inside too. I'm 6'1" and there must be nearly 6" of clearance above my head when I'm in the front seat. If you don't like for people to point at you though then buy something else. Every time I've ever ridden with her people pull up beside and wave, or kids stop playing ball and start pointing at her car, it's crazy. She's had total strangers walk up to her in the parking lot and ask if they could sit in it. All of my daughters high school friends recognize her from the car and they all think it's cool. Me, I feel more at ease driving an old truck.

[Water Warrior 2]

The cube appears very roomy for it's size, of course anything built like a box is very efficient for good use of available space. The original Mini was the same thing. I actually had a 1960 used Mini when I finished school. It was quite an experience having a car that was only 2 or 3 inches wider than my Vstrom with hard bags. A 36 HP 4 banger 850 cc engine and a 4 speed transaxle.

[dhgeyer]

I think a foolproof steam car could be made with proper safe guards and modern technology. Heat the boiler with propane or natural gas and top up the water res. Maybe even a steam powered generator for a hybrid with motors at each wheel.
The old Stanley Steamers were a work of art. As a youngster I talked to a fellow who had one. He said it had fantastic power and could start out on a steep incline with no real effort at all. A big car with steam heat in the winter and very comfortable. 70 MPH was a cruising speed on regular roads and there was no noise except the tires going around. This was at a time when most cars would barely do 70 top speed.

I was at a flea market one time in Hollis, NH, and a guy showed up in a working Stanley Steamer. It was very interesting, and more than a little impressive, and I'm sure all the things you say about it are true, except the no noise part. We watched him drive it away. It made a kind of hissing sound, something like a steam train. But there are some downsides. You do have to fill it with clean water. You have to wait for the boiler to heat the water before you can drive anywhere, and that can take some time. You have to know what you're doing or there could be big trouble.

The diesel electric system replaced steam in trains for a reason. If you think about it, they were the first hybrids.

Personally, I'm waiting for a practical electric car. I don't have to worry about the argument that I'm just burning coal instead of gas, since we live about 40 miles from Seabrook Station, and most of our electricity comes from nuclear power. I think nuclear power is what we're going to have to run on eventually if we are to survive as an affluent society.

[Water Warrior 2]

Neat. You got to see an actual Steamer up close an personal while it was running. From what I remember the Steamer my neighbor had was a large sedan and quite quiet due to all the bodywork, upholstery and wood interior.
I think the preheating of a modern steamer could be done easily with modern simple technology. Also a sleep mode where the steamer automatically maintains a lower working pressure for those instant starts with no waiting. Sort of a thermostat set on low. The only drawback and it is a big one is the IDIOT FACTOR that our modern society has developed.

[alanmcorcoran]

dh,

Lots of electrics at the show. Many for actual sale. I guess time will tell which are practical and which are not. I think the Volt will probably do better than the leaf initially until the fear of running out of juice subsides. I think there are a lot of unknowns still with regard to true relative cost of battery energy vs oil energy. More importantly, if electric proves to be economically (or environmentally) superior, there will have to be a raft of infrastructure, cultural and societal changes before it really goes mainstream. Sometimes these things happen pretty fast, if the technology is compelling (atms's, cd's) and sometimes things either take a lot longer (newton vs iphone) or never.

I'd consider a volt if it were 22K. At 40K, I think it's cheaper to buy a camry for 22-24K and buy gas for five years.

Clearly, if we actually do run out of oil, electric (nuclear provided) is going to win. Once it gains significant market share, it's costs should drop and other efficiencies will likely emerge.

[dentheman]

I just heard on TV that using and recharging an electric car for a month uses the same amount of electricity as four average homes for a month! I can't see paying that amount on top of my home's electric bill, even if I didn't have to pay for gas; it's not economically feasable. The main gist of the story was that the electrical grid is not capable of supporting a large number of electric cars.

[alanmcorcoran]

There are a lot of aspects to this that really won't sort themselves out until (or if) it progresses. One scenario that has been discussed is the likelihood that a large population of electric cars could actually serve as an energy "reservoir" storing either solar energy collected during the day for night use, or, storing cheaper (nuclear/coal/gas/hydro) energy generated at night for use during the day. One inherently wasteful aspect of the current "dumb" grid is that you have to match the generation with the usage - there is no concept of "storage."

[Water Warrior 2]

So far I drive my Ranger a bit less than 9,000 kms a year. Not a great deal no matter how you look at it. Switching to any of the hybrids or their cousins would be financial suicide to my personal economy. I would probably need to own a Civic Hybrid 20 years before breaking even on the extra cost of purchase. I doubt that the insurance rates in the GWN would be acceptable either. There are just too many real world factors to justify anything but gasoline in my situation. A gas Civic or Cube would get better mileage overall but then I would be back to square one with a new car price and added taxes. Gas is the most convenient for me. As for society gas is still the most convenient for most but at what cost to the future generations ? What we really need is a world of nuclear powered cars and trucks. A 20 year life span and a proper way to dispose of the spent fuel. Oh yeah, a $15,000 price tag. Until then we can rely on fuel efficient bikes for transportation when the weather permits. Not the ultimate answer by any means but you get to make new friends wherever you go.

[alantf]

In England, one of the recently proven technologies is converting cars to run on gas. By that, I don't mean the American word for petrol, but real Methane / propane gas. Apparently quite a lot of taxis run on it, & it's been proven to be as efficient as petrol. The main gain for the environment is that it comes straight from the seabed, but doesn't need all the refining of petrol, and apparently U.K. petrol stations (some of them) have the means to load up the cars. I must admit that I don't know a lot about it, but apparently it's gaining favour, & works out cheaper per mile than petrol. :)

[dhgeyer]

Well I have to agree with all of the above pretty much. Buying any kind of a new car costs a lot more than gas to keep your old one going until it wears out, which they all do eventually. I kept a Jeep CJ7 going for 18 years, and owned it for 14 of those years. By the time it got to be completely beyond hope, I had put a new engine core and clutch in it, and a new fiberglass body on it, plus odds and ends. There were still a few original pieces left on it.

Electric cars are not really there yet, but I think the powers that be realize that they are the future. As Alan C. points out, it's going to have to be an evolutionary process. Nuclear power, a better grid, longer range and better, cheaper cars. Right now they are a luxury for the especially green with lots of green. But I am among the believers that it will eventually happen.

Our present system of transportation in North America was built on the availability of cheap fossil fuel. We're going to run out of that, and soon; if not the fuel part, then the cheap part. I don't think we're going to be putting nuclear reactors in cars any time in the next hundred years or so, so that leaves cheap electricity and electric cars. We're going to have to build fast trains. To some extent people are going to have to move back into the cities and use public transportation, which will have to be built in most places. In other words, we''re going to have to live more like the rest of the World.

There's plenty of oil in the ground for now, but there is also a hugely increased demand from emerging and Third World countries. That's what's going to drive the cost up. The Chinese are controlling more and more of the supply, particularly the refining and distribution. They are going to require more and more of it for themselves. They are also ahead of us now in building both nuclear and renewable energy sources. We are lagging way behind a good part of the World in these areas.

We are going to change both the way we live and the way we get around. We can do it before it all comes crashing down around our ears, or afterward. Either way, we are going to do it.

[Water Warrior 2]

LPG(liquid propane gas)used to be a favorite of taxi owners in Alberta at one time. Probably still is to a certain degree. LPG was cheaper than gas and the engine ran cleaner and lasted a lot longer. This was before FI engines but I don't know if they still use it. Once LPG started to get popular the price went up with the demand. Diesel fuel went the same way. Price and demand go hand in hand. LPG used to be a useless by-product at refineries and it was just burned off most of the time.
Natural gas made a big splash for a while till folks realized how much trouble it is and the range of the vehicle is quite limited. There are very few locations to refuel and the fuel tanks are very heavy and bulky. The City of Edmonton tried it a few years ago and they had mixed results. Converting gas engines to Natural gas was very costly and any work truck lost too much of it's load capacity to haul around the heavy fuel tanks. A typical half ton truck had to be refueled before an 8 hour shift was over even if it was not driven a lot. You could drive across the city but had to stop and refuel to return to your starting point.This from a friend who actually drove a natural gas powered truck on the job. He was not impressed with the new technology of Natural gas powered vehicles. His personal vehicle was a propane powered Ram 4x4 that worked beautifully.

[Water Warrior 2]

One of my friends talked me into going to the LA Car show Friday. Not really my thing, but I did stumble across a practical little four wheeler for WW (he's been thinking about hanging up his saddle...)
http://s3.postimage.org/2f4pojwzo/DSC02505.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/2f4pojwzo/)
Got to thinking a bit about concept cars and searched for this Jag. Thank you Alan for pointing the way to a car I could really enjoy. Not only is it electric but it is soooooooooooo fast when in need of a thrill beyond anything remotely sane. No trunk space but who cares.

[alanmcorcoran]

You'll need a place to store the stick you will be using to fend off the hordes of tail you'll be attracting. It didn't seem like they were going to make any more than one of these - some have guessed if they did it would retail for around 300K. Saw a bugatti on Top gear that was over a million Great Britain pounds - so the Jag is kind of a bargain!

Here's a more old fashioned one if you go for that sort of thing...


http://s4.postimage.org/2a2pdj2uc/DSC02466.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/2a2pdj2uc/)

[Water Warrior 2]

The Jag is a concept with no plans for production so far. As for getting a 300 G car I would really need a big lottery with lots of cash left over. I'm sure a plain jane Porche with an autostick would work plenty well enough for me. Or a scooter with an auto tranny. Ahh to dream sweet dreams.