Engine Seized - Please Help

[PeterSeymour]

Hello I have used this forum many times as a reference and had been meaning to register for a while. I purchased a 1999 GZ 250 about 4 months ago as my first motorcycle. I was hooked from the first ride and have put just over 2000 miles on the bike already. Unfortunately on my latest camping trip out to California I encountered some engine trouble early in the morning. After calling family friends I was assured it was just a fuel issue, and I should keep going to town. The oil gage on my bike, however, had noticeable condensation on the inside, though it still appeared to show that it was full of oil. I concluded that the gage was probably mucked up or somehow fouled and decided to add a quart just in case, and head into town. The engine appeared to run much better after the extra quart so once in town I bought another and added an additional half quart, just to be sure it had at least 1.5 quarts in the engine. After fully checking the engine for leaks and idling it while looking for smoke I started limping home, driving conservatively on back streets. I trained my left mirror on the muffler and stopped periodically to check for any apparent leak but I only had about 110 miles to go so I thought I could make it home. After about 60 of those miles, however, I heard a loud clunk and the rear while immediately locked up. There was no warning sign at all, no sputtering or smoke, but I was able to recover from the resulting skid safely and come to a stop. I again examined the bike to find no serious leaks and determined (after a long time examining the gage with a flashlight) that there was at least some oil sloshing around in the bottom of the engine. The engine however was at least mostly seized as I was only able to partially turn it over by pushing it up to speed and dropping the clutch (after doing this the starter would spin a little rather than just click).

I have a couple questions I was hoping to find answers to here, first of all what could prevent oil from getting into the engine (failed oil pump?). Second how could 1.5 quarts of oil (or at least a significant amount) burn up/leak in about an hour without any clearly noticeable leak or smoke? And finally now that I have a seized engine and very limited money do I try to fix the engine, buy a new engine entirely, or part out the bike and put that money towards a new one? I do work in a machine shop and have access to a lot of tools but I have very limited experience dealing with small engine repairs of that level, especially when there may be another underlying problem that cause the oil leak/burning.

I am sorry that is a lot to read but I am really desperate and I hope that someone here might have answers. All in all I am just grateful I made it home from the middle of the desert back to Phoenix and survived a potential crash - even if my motorcycle is shot. Still, not exactly the Thanksgiving I was hoping for. Thanks in advance for your help and assistance.

[blaine]

Welcome.Sorry to hear of your troubles. :sad: It sounds like your oil pump may have stopped pumping oil.Can you elaborate on your original problem.You stated maybe you had a fuel problem. :??: Is it possible that fuel flooded into the engine diluting the oil,which would also cause the engine to seize?You would probably be better off looking for a good used engine,it would be cheaper than trying to rebuild a badly damaged engine. :itsokay:

[Water Warrior 2]

Ouch, sounds like a very unhappy bike. Don't want to comment on the fuel issue except to say that the bike was able to run if only with some problems. The extra oil would be my main concern. Here is what I would do. Drain all the oil out. Then just put in the required amount and no more. Remove the spark plug and ground it to the engine. Using the starter just see if the engine will spin over freely. If so, put in a new plug and try to start the engine. If the engine is damaged you will know soon enough. I have a suspicion you managed to hydralock the engine somehow with all the extra oil. Typically we hear of hydralocking due to water or fuel in the combustion chamber but I an thinking the engine did accomplish this when the piston could not compress oil on the downstroke after the excessive oil had expanded and /or foamed up. Maybe I am giving you false hope but you can do this for less than a couple happy meals just to start the road to recovery. Good luck.

[Easy Rider]

. The extra oil would be my main concern. .

This sad, SAD story just is another illustration of what bad things can happen when you start taking wild guesses trying to fix something that you really know nothing about. Adding extra oil when all indications were that it was already FULL was NOT a wise thing to do.

Now that it is locked up, your only practical recourse probably is to sell it for parts.
A Suzuki dealer would probably haul it in and confirm the gravity of the problem for $100 or so......depending on where you live.

[PeterSeymour]

Thank you for the replies. I woke up today and decided to figure out, to the best of my ability what had happened. After hours of stripping down the bike I am only more confused than I was before. First of all I was able to turn the motor over about one full revolution by putting it in first gear and pushing. At either extreme of that rotation I heard a metal clunk coming from the bottom left side of the engine housing. I am not sure what that could be but I am pretty sure the piston is not at least completely seized in the cylinder. After doing a partial rotation like that the starter motor will spin the engine again only about one full rotation. I also found that in any gear, even with the clutch pulled in and disengaged, the bike was extremely difficult to push, but while in neutral I can push it just fine. I have no idea if this is related to the clutch, transmission, or still some engine problem. Also given what I read here I expected that my oil addition was the real problem and I did this to myself. When I drained the oil, however, I got out almost exactly 1.5 quarts. In total I added 2 quarts yesterday (1.5 before the engine "seized" and another half afterwards). So I am assuming that yesterday the issue really was related to low oil and I lost approximately a half quart driving the 56 miles back to the city. I also confirmed by draining it that the glass on my engine does not properly show the oil level (because it still shows full) and I should absolutely have known that before.

Anyways now I am stuck and really don't know what else I should do. I guess I may try grounding the sparkplug, putting new oil in it, and then trying to start it. But if there is an issue with the crankshaft, transmission, or clutch I don't think that doing so will have much of an impact. Again I appreciate all the help, I ultimately want to try to save the bike because it is in great shape and I love riding it, but a reality check may be what I really need given the severity of these issues.

[Water Warrior 2]

Just for confirmation. Are you checking the oil level with the bike in a vertical position ? It will be inaccurate leaning on the side stand.

[PeterSeymour]

I was checking it with the bike balanced vertically and a flashlight. I have drained all the oil out now and the gage still seems to indicate that there is oil in the engine so I don't think it is reliable at all.

[blaine]

I was checking it with the bike balanced vertically and a flashlight. I have drained all the oil out now and the gage still seems to indicate that there is oil in the engine so I don't think it is reliable at all.
It is more of a sight glass than a gage,with the glass showing the level of oil.If the glass is stained or damaged in some way so that it is not clear,it will be hard to see the level of the oil in the sight glass.
:) :cool:

[Water Warrior 2]

Bummer about the sight glass. Have you removed the spark plug yet and will it turn over with the plug removed ?

[PeterSeymour]

I have done a lot of work since I last posted. First of all I did confirm that with the sparkplug out it will only turn over 1 rotation and a loud metal clunk accompanies either extreme of this rotation. After I drained the oil I decided to remove the crankcase cover on the lower right portion of the engine. I meticulously checked every portion of the engine and transmission and with only one exception everything seemed to be in perfect shape and still very well lubricated. I could not however fully see the cylinder or piston (only enough to see it move the single rotation). The one issue I found, which I think may be the whole problem, is the black plastic guard on the cam chain. The guard on the right side was in place and seemed fine, but there was no guard on the left side of the cam chain and a broken piece of the plastic guard was sticking out of the engine upper alongside the cam chain. I am wondering if this plastic piece broke and got lodged somewhere in the cam drivetrain could that cause the engine to effectively seize and allow this single rotation that I am experiencing? I have not tried removing the plastic piece as I will have more knowledgable friends take a look first. I have included pictures of what I am seeing and I appreciate everyone's help. I am actually a little hopeful now that the bike may be salvageable and I have to say even this tiny one cylinder engine is a marvel of engineering once you really take a look at it - I can't believe people actually design these things from the ground up and make them work so well.


http://s1.postimage.org/24dmljy2s/PB271324.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/24dmljy2s/)

http://s1.postimage.org/24drk5zk4/PB271325.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/24drk5zk4/)

http://s1.postimage.org/24dztuq10/PB271327.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/24dztuq10/)

I also managed to clean the sludge of the sight glass by the way, now it seems to work just fine.

[dentheman]

My guess would be that it is repairable if you are mechanically inclined, using the parts manual and maintenance manual on this forum. I imagine a shop would charge a pretty penny to fix it. If you do repair it, check to be sure no bits and pieces went into the oil pump. As far as sludge on the sight glass, I am trying to think what would cause sludge in the oil besides water. Even gas getting into oil will just thin it, I believe. Could moisture from the air box be running down the breather tube?

[Water Warrior 2]

Nice tear down and pics. Although I am not familiar with the internals of the engine I will take a guess at the broken part. You may have a broken cam chain tensioner and/or guide mechanism. Probably replaceable and not as costly as an engine rebuild but I am not sure how far the engine needs to be torn down to do the deed. Pure speculation here but you may have to remove the head and cam shaft to free up the chain enough to replace the tensioner. Please remember I am really good at assuming all sorts of stuff and am generally wrong.

[blaine]

I believe you have found your problem.I also think you are right in assuming that a piece of the plastic is jamming the engine.I'm with "Dentheman" that if you went this far you can repair it yourself.The sight glass may have got sludged up by neglect by a previous owner.Good luck and keep us posted.
:) :2tup:

[Water Warrior 2]

Peter, go to Ron Ayers Motorsports and look at the Fiche diagrams for a little more of an idea what might be broken. Also get some prices for parts as they are quite reasonable from what I have heard.

[PeterSeymour]

Thank you all very much for the replies and help. I have priced out what I think I may need to fix the obvious problem with the cam chain guide. What worries me know is what I find under the valve cover, which I'm thinking I will most likely have to take off to retrieve all of the plastic - based on what I can see with a flashlight looking up into the head there are plastic pieces higher than I can reach with any tool I have. My big question is can the valve cover be taken off without removing the engine from the bike. Clearance between the head and the top tube seems minimal at best so I'm worried I will have to drop the engine in order to get a look at the camshaft. Does anyone know if you can remove the valve cover without removing the engine? Or can I at least lift it up enough to get a look at the cam chain?

[blaine]

Clearance between the head and the top tube seems minimal at best so I'm worried I will have to drop the engine in order to get a look at the camshaft. Does anyone know if you can remove the valve cover without removing the engine? Or can I at least lift it up enough to get a look at the cam chain?
The valve cover can be removed with the engine in the bike.(see page 3-9 in the manual,it can be downloaded for free)
:)

[PeterSeymour]

Okay I got the valve cover off just fine like you said and was able to fully examine the cam chain. I think that the chain is actually working fine and that the plastic guide was just slightly out of position - I couldn't actually see that it was broken anywhere so I think I misdiagnosed the problem. The Piston will move freely from top dead center to top dead center so I don't think it is seized, and I am really kind of lost on what it might be. I also removed the generator cover and was not able to see anything out of the ordinary. I have to say I am getting close to throwing in the towel on this, it is just so perplexing as to what it might be. I think I may just try bringing it to a shop now and asking if they can figure out what is wrong. It does sound like there might be a loose or ground gear or something wrong with the crankshaft. I am going to hedge my bets on that but I really just don't know. I am definitely happy that the piston seems at least functional though!

[blaine]

I always used a small pry bar to unscrew the cover.A large washer & vise grips will work also,but I always had better luck with the pry bar.If you want to take the whole cover off you need to pull and wiggle the cover to overcome the magnetic pull of the stator.The magnetic pull of the stator can be difficult to overcome.I'm starting to think that your bike may have jumped it's valve timing.This would cause the piston to stop at top dead center because of the valves opening at the wrong time and hitting the top of the piston.when you get the cap loose it wouldn't hurt to check the timing marks,as explained in the valve adjustment section of the manual.
:)

[PeterSeymour]

Thanks for the tips. I actually managed to get the cover off not two minutes after I posted that. I had been kind of gentle with it but finally a gave it some pretty good tugs. The gasket on that side was actually in horrible shape and had fused the cover to the engine so it came off in strips and pieces. Looks like I am on my way to a full engine rebuild just trying to figure out what is going on. :??:

[blaine]

The gasket on that side was actually in horrible shape and had fused the cover to the engine so it came off in strips and pieces. :??:
It is normal for the gaskets to get like that with age.Any that I replaced on my 99 were in the same shape when dissembled.I wouldn't give up hope just yet.In case you missed the last part of my last post after I edited it,reread it.
:2tup:

[Water Warrior 2]

If the plastic guide was holding back the engine from rotating you may want to put your energies there. Why did it get out of position ? Possibly it is in need of replacement. How is it held in place and will it come undone again if it is in poor condition.

[Easy Rider]

but a reality check may be what I really need given the severity of these issues.

See my previous answer.
You likely are just making matters WORSE instead of better.

[alantf]

your only practical recourse probably is to sell it for parts.


THAT was your last suggestion. He'd probably not get much for a siezed engine, so what's he lost by trying to repair it? Also, Peter, even if you fail, it's a great learning experience. I say "go ahead". If you succeed, you can be proud of yourself. If you fail, it's nothing to be ashamed about. ;) :2tup:

[Water Warrior 2]

Peter it will be a learning experience for all of us. Keep at it. If it is really broken beyond repair you have nothing to loose and if you can repair it we all win and you are on the road again. Pics are always a bonus.

[PeterSeymour]

Well after bringing it in to the machine shop where I work and doing some further deconstruction I discovered the problem. Once I saw what happened it really was quite obvious and hopefully the information could help someone else on here some day. I only have pictures of the piston now, but I will take more of the bike and post them tomorrow.

One of the four exhaust valves on the bike broke at the base of the valve stem. I am not sure what caused this to happen but it solves all of my questions. After breaking the valve head was floating loose on top of the piston within the cylinder which, combined with missing an exhaust valve, I think caused the high RPM issues with the motor. I am fascinated though that the bike was able to run with an 1/8" thick valve sitting on top of the piston and a missing valve - in fact it actually ran fairly well with reduction in performance only at high RPM. The continuous impact between the piston, valve head, and cylinder head caused sever damage both to the surface of the piston and to the head. The piston is cratered beyond belief in addition to being completely warped. I think this warping may be responsible for the oil loss as the piston did not form a complete seal in the cylinder. As far as I can tell, the only reason the bike stopped running and "seized" was because this flat chunk of valve somehow got turned on its end and with the piston now hot embedded lengthwise into the top of the piston. This impact caused a massive gouge in the piston, cracking it and almost bursting right through the piston, and prevented the piston from reaching top dead center. As a result the engine would turn almost one rotation and the metal clunk was the piston hitting this remnant of the valve. Unfortunately I have no way of knowing if all these impacts also affected the tie rod and the crank, but I imagine that such an impact could not be good for the tie rod or any portion of the engine.

I still really do not know why a valve would break off like that, other than it just being bad. The last valve adjustment was only 2500 miles before this incident so I don't think it was neglect of adjustment. Nor do I understand how this engine with only one cylinder was able to run so well with a valve not only missing but stuck inside the engine. I don't feel too bad though because once the valve broke I don't think I could have done anything to completely prevent the ensuing damage and even a few impacts would have left the engine in need of a complete rebuild. My only questions are is it worth dropping the engine and trying a top end rebuild when I do not really know the status of the crank? And if I decide to part the bike (which I most likely will) how much can I expect to get for it - it is in nearly flawless shape apart from this engine blow up (almost new tires and brakes, recent shock/fork tune up, clean body, etc)? Also should I try to sell it as a complete parts bike or should I pull everything off and sell each component individually?

Thanks for all the help, if you have any theories as to why this could have happened I am really curious. I will post more pictures later, but here are some of the piston.




http://s3.postimage.org/2xnm591vo/PB301332.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/2xnm591vo/)

http://s3.postimage.org/2xnnssedg/PB301333.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/2xnnssedg/)

http://s3.postimage.org/2xnpgbqv8/PB301337.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/2xnpgbqv8/)

http://s3.postimage.org/2xnsrefus/PB301339.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/2xnsrefus/)

[burkbuilds]

Wow Peter, sorry about all the engine damage, but I love your "jump in there and figure it out yourself" attitude. Way to go. You probably now know more than most of us about that engine. If I had quit every time somebody, (usually my mother) said, "you don't know what you are doing, you're gonna mess it up." then I never would have learned to do all the things I now know how to do. Oh, and yeah, a lot of times I did make it worse, but how else you gonna really learn something than to dig in and tackle it? Anyway, you should be proud of yourself for the way you tore into that motor and solved the mystery.

[blaine]

That's really to bad. :cry: As to why it happened is anybody's guess. :??: I would think you will get more by parting it out than selling it complete. :)

[Water Warrior 2]

Wow, did that piston take a beating. I'm surprised the valve top didn't just smash the entire piston top to pieces. As for the valve breaking off the valve stem, that can happen. It is fairly rare but I know it does happen now and again.
The engine might be repairable but I doubt it would be a cheap project. Maybe just pick up another used engine if you want to keep the bike and ride it.

[Easy Rider]

I still really do not know why a valve would break off like that, other than it just being bad.

Nor do I understand how this engine with only one cylinder was able to run so well with a valve not only missing but stuck inside the engine.

There are too many unknowns to get a really good answer, the main one being: Did the oil get low before or after the valve broke? I think it's a good bet that the oil got low first and NO OIL caused the valve problem. But that's just a guess and you likely will never know for sure.

Trust me, the engine did NOT run "so well" AFTER the valve came completely loose; it won't run at all with the exhust valve wide open. That spell of running different likely happened when the valve stem first strated to crack OR when the engine started to overheat due to lack of oil. If you had stopped running it at that point to investigate WHY it started runnning so differently, the valve might not have broken.

Hind sight is often 20-20 but, in general, any time an engine exhibits a drastic change in how it is running, it should be shut off and not run again until evaluated by trained personel.

I expressed my opinion about what you should do next already and that hasn't changed as a result of your latest discoveries. The fact that you work at a machine shop might make a little difference but I don't think you can trust that engine again without a complete rebuild. The only things likely not affected are the transmission, clutch and cams. You certainly need a new cam chain guide and that makes me wonder if the chain didn't experience and extreme stress too.

A "new" engine would be MUCH easier......and probably less costly in the long run too.

[alanmcorcoran]

Good report. I'm not the best source of engine vs buy a new one. Seems like you learned a bit about the innards here, but I don't know that there is an economical source of replacement engines to work with. I've seen Geezers for under 1K to buy whole - might be easier.

[b1pig]

so, Peter...

you going to try and rebuild your current engine or source a replacement through salvage or ebay?

[PeterSeymour]

Well I don't really know what I am going to do - I feel like I have a lot of options but none of them are very good. At the very least I will need a new piston, head, valves, and will need to re-sleeve/hone the cylinder in order to rebuild the engine. That seems like a lot of money to put into a bike with a KBB value of $940, not to mention the fact that I am a full time student and work two jobs on the side so time is a premium and I need transportation urgently (my legs are getting tired now that I have to rely on pedal power everyday). Also until I complete this rebuild I have no foolproof way of determining whether or not something bent/broke in the bottom end of the engine. I am very worried about this because the clutch appears to not disengage with the lever depressed even though the clutch plates move. This may be a function of the clutch having no oil but I really do not know and would have to do more troubleshooting and deconstruction to find out.

Ultimately I think the only way to salvage the bike is to throw a new engine in it, and all the salvage yards near me priced out junk engines at above $400 - and running engines between $600 and $800 depending on mileage. The same yards said they would give me only $50 and $75 were I to salvage what's left of the bike, so I know that is one option I definitely will not choose. My problem with throwing a new engine in this bike is both the fact that I need transportation soon and that, while I want to save what has been a great first bike, I simply cannot justify spending 2/3 or 3/4 of the kbb value in repairs. I also was planning on upgrading after about 10000 miles on the bike, so even though I did not reach that goal I did put almost 4000 on it and that is a lot of work and money for 6000 miles.

So my big question is, is there any way to reasonably fix this bike for around/under $500 doing the labor myself? In the end it comes down to where I might be able to find an engine for less than what I've seen so far. I also had a bit of an oddball idea suggested to me by one of my professors - actually the chair of the department. If I donate the bike to the engineering program they will provide some funding and give me credit to make it electric, and if I fund the project they will give me credit and let me keep what I build. I'm not sure this route appeals to me as I really enjoy long days touring (something the GZ was already ill equipped for) and an electric bike simply cannot tour. Is there any precedent towards making a GZ electric? It seems like it actually wouldn't be hard at all with the right electric motor, but I just do not know.

Thanks again for all the help and support I have gotten here. I enjoyed my time on the GZ immensely and I really wish it was still running. As for the actual breakdown and what I could have done, I probably should have just stopped the bike and gotten it towed, but it was Thanksgiving day and I most likely would have been stranded out of town until that Monday or have faced an immense towing bill - so I really don't think I many other choices but to try and limp home. That's one decision I will second guess for a long time though.

As promised I will post a full complement of pictures later tonight.

[Sarris]

Given your situation, and your stated proclivity to move to a larger bike soon, I would suggest parting it it out. It's probably worth more in parts than as a whole. Then, I'd take that money, and the money you'd spend on repairs or an engine replacement, and buy a larger bike.

You can do the part out by internet post and remove the parts as your time allows.

You really don't want to be upside down in a GZ.

Just my opinion. Good luck.

:)

[Easy Rider]

Ultimately I think the only way to salvage the bike is to throw a new engine in it,

So my big question is, is there any way to reasonably fix this bike for around/under $500 doing the labor myself?

That's one decision I will second guess for a long time though.



With the figures you quoted, the answer is NO; you have answered your own question; you just need to actually believe what you have already figured out.

Maybe the most important part is the unknown. You might spend $500 and a month's worth of time, only to find out that the crank is bent and it will all be wasted. Even getting a "running" used engine is a gamble.

As for second guessing............the first mistake you made was not fixing the problem of not being able to see the oil level properly. If you had done that in the beginning, you might still have a running bike.
For want of a nail, a shoe was lost; for want of a shoe, the horse was lost, etc..............!!
If you fix the little things as they go wrong, they won't become BIG things later.

We've all learned some lessons the hard way; this is one of your's. :cry:

[Easy Rider]

Given your situation, and your stated proclivity to move to a larger bike soon, I would suggest parting it it out.

Or selling as a whole "parts bike" fully disclosing the problem(s).

I'd think it would be worth $200 or so to the right person.

Parting it out might increase the total take a bit but would be a tremendous pain in the butt and it doesn't sound to me like you have the time.

[Water Warrior 2]

Sarris has a good solution to consider.

[alanmcorcoran]

Keep the bike, look around for another 1999 or similar vintage. You can probably negoatiate to buy one that's 11 years old for less than $1000, maybe even just a tad more than $500. A bike that old will probably have some "issues" and you'll have your original 1999 you can cannibalize for parts. Seems like you like to dig around and take things apart anyway.

I'd try to find one with low mileage and decent tires, but I suppose that is obvious. I'd sell you mine for cheap if it wasn't so new and you weren't a whole state away. Ya got $1800 for an '08 with less than 5K? Has saddlebags, sissy bar, windshield and the engine runs great. Take you a day to ride it back to AZ. Might even go with for part of the way. I'm just using it for around town - but I could use the KLR for that. Save me some room in the garage and a few bucks on registration and insurance.

[Easy Rider]

A bike that old will probably have some "issues" and you'll have your original 1999 you can cannibalize for parts.

Zombie hunter to the rescue !! :tup:

I think that any of the proposed options are better than trying to "fix" the bike you have now........unless maybe you can find a used engine that you KNOW is in good shape.