irratic idle

[b1pig]

hey, guys. got an issue that has been nagging on the wife's GZ for a while now. The idle is all over the place. I'd think it was a vaccum leak, but there really isnt one. I finally got a replacement choke cable in, so I replaced it. The bike was completely unridable before this. With no tach, I could only guess it wanted to idle around 2500-3000 rpm. Mainly due to the choke, I know. I went ahead and pulled the carb and broke it down. i cleaned the whole thing out. There was some ugly residue that came out, but only a very small amount. The only place where there was any real evidence of gumming up was... guess... the "choke". (more of a manual enrichment....) I also did a valve adjustment. the top end was horribly noisy. well. i got the exhaust right, but I dont have the smaller gage for the intake... so I guessed at it. It ain't perfect, but its a LOT better than before.

Now.
The idle is whacky. if youre cruising and slow down, you can tell that it doesnt return all the way down. after you come to a stop, the idle hangs a tad high. drag the clutch and it comes down and stays there. if you rev it a little, sometimes it eases back down, sometimes it hangs up there a bit. its more annoying than a hazzard to riding or damage. All the vent lines are routed like they should be, includeing the "fuel pump" vaccum line to the fuel valve.

Any thoughts?

thanks!
Billy

[alanmcorcoran]

First, I must give you my "I'm not a mechanic" disclaimer (I'm sort of the opposite.) Second, I had the same problem as you. I was unable to fix it myself (not that I tried very hard - but I did pull the plug, mess with the idle setting, put Seafoam through, etc.) I took it to my dealer three times before they fixed it. They claimed they cleaned the carb each time, but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say there are degrees of cleaning a carb, and my problem required that you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY clean the carb. It is also possible that something was hosed in the emissions canister, The valves needed adjustment, or something else was tweaked, but I really think the problem was something clogged in one or more of the jets in the carb.

The good news is, they did fix it on the third try - this was over a year ago - and it's been running great ever since. Idles consistently and not high. Bike is very quiet and very steady once warmed up (five minutes or so.) Before it was fixed, it would rev super high and also stall - annoying and dangerous to ride. I burned a nice hole in some expensive touring pants pushing the thing out of an intersection. If I hadn't had the pants on the hole woulda been in my leg. Plus, all the effing around with it while you are riding uses up the parts of your focus that help you avoid getting killed.

Good luck. There are carb experts on here - I am certain they will all weigh in. Take all of the advice, and add it up and divide by the number of posts.

[Easy Rider]

I'd think it was a vaccum leak, but there really isnt one.

Does that include the air box too......and the air box drain plug ??

How about sticky throttle cables ?

I'd run some carb cleaner through with the gas. Sometimes that gets "places" that you can't see with a manual cleaning.

[blaine]

i got the exhaust right, but I dont have the smaller gage for the intake... so I guessed at it. It ain't perfect, but its a LOT better than before.

Now.
The idle is whacky. if youre cruising and slow down, you can tell that it doesnt return all the way down. after you come to a stop, the idle hangs a tad high. drag the clutch and it comes down and stays there. if you rev it a little, sometimes it eases back down, sometimes it hangs up there a bit. its more annoying than a hazzard to riding or damage.

thanks!
Billy

Have you tried adjusting the idle mixture?If the idle mixture is lean it will cause the idle to be erratic and slow to return.Also valves need to be adjusted as close as possible to each other.
:2tup: :)

[b1pig]

Good luck. There are carb experts on here - I am certain they will all weigh in. Take all of the advice, and add it up and divide by the number of posts.


:lol:
thats funny...


the throttle cables are fine. when the idle hangs, i can twist the throttle a little harder closed. it goes no farther than it was and has no effect. the airbox is nice and clean. drain is clean as well with the cap in place. air filter is spotless.

as for the valve adjustment, i've got to order a gage with the right thickness. mine doesnt go that far down. the one i have was actually a couple hundredths of a milimeter thicker than called for, but i adjusted it tighter than i normally would have, but in any case the same amount of tension was achived in inserting/removing the gage. once i get the right gage, i'll be taking her apart and readjusting the valves. i'll put it into perspective. when I took it apart, a .003"
feeler gage slid right in there. :shocked:
80% of the topend noise is gone now. should be resolved 100% once i get the new gage in.

i haven't tried the fuel mixture. i looked it up once, but I didnt drill the plug out. might be my next adjustment along with shimming the needle.

[blaine]

i haven't tried the fuel mixture. i looked it up once, but I didn't drill the plug out. might be my next adjustment along with shimming the needle.
Try turning your idle mixture screw out 1/2 turn(rich)I think your problem will be fixed.The G.Z is notoriously lean from the factory.My bike had the same problem till I made the mixture a little richer.I also done the needle shim & main jet at a later date.Good luck.
:roll: :cool:

[Water Warrior 2]

Lynda must have been very fortunate with her GZ. The bike would sit for months at a time in the winter and fire up perfectly in the spring. Never had any fuel stabilizer or fuel additives at all. Carb was untouched from factory settings and only the idle was turned up a bit for the first few spring rides. Must be a Canadian thing eh.

[alantf]

Lynda must have been very fortunate with her GZ. The bike would sit for months at a time in the winter and fire up perfectly in the spring. Never had any fuel stabilizer or fuel additives at all. Carb was untouched from factory settings and only the idle was turned up a bit for the first few spring rides. Must be a Canadian thing eh.

That's the difference between the Canadian / European GZ, & the American. :plus1: Plus, I never need the choke to start up. :2tup:

[Water Warrior 2]

I thought the U.S. and Canadian models were the same.

[dentheman]

Does Canadian gas contain ethanol? I think that is a big contributer to the gumming, but others will disagree.

[Water Warrior 2]

Does Canadian gas contain ethanol? I think that is a big contributer to the gumming, but others will disagree.
Up to 10% ethanol in most pumps. My local Chevron has ethanol free 94 octane but it costs an arm and a leg. All of our vehicles run well on 87 octane with ethanol.
According to the news the U.S. is considering 15% ethanol and Canada will probably follow suite. Should be interesting when some one pumps that into a high compression engine by mistake. FI might compensate somewhat but a carb will be out of it's league.

[dentheman]

If the US is considering 15% that means it will be a done deal in the near future.

[alantf]

I thought the U.S. and Canadian models were the same.

According to my European (Spanish) owners handbook, the European / Canadian specs are the same, except for a few lighting differences to comply with the Canadian laws. :)

That's probably why the European / Canadian tank logos are the same, & different to the American logos - to tell the Canadian / American bikes apart.

[Easy Rider]

According to the news the U.S. is considering 15% ethanol and Canada will probably follow suite.

Not trying to be nasty here but.......you really should tell the whole story. :poke2:

The proposal is NOT for all the gas sold but for ANOTHER mix with 15% that is approved for use ONLY in 2007 (I think) and later model year vehicles. AND retailers will not be requires to carry the new mix (yet).

That means, probably, that one of the present 3 "grades" of fuel will have to go to make a tank and pumps available for the new stuff. Adding new tank and pumps probably won't happen because of cost.

My guess is that the "mid grade" will disappear and be replaced by E-15.

[Water Warrior 2]

Thanks Easy. It's all in the details. Probably the mid grade will go away as you say or the gas outlets will need another underground tank.

[b1pig]

that will be a logistics nightmare.

something of note... relating to gas. i receive a newsletter on british touring cars. (got a MG in pieces) one of the articles was about the ethanol mix. "shelf life" is around 45 days. after that, the fuel mix separates between the alcohol (bottom) and gasoline (top). The can be accelerated by water.. even from condensation. IIRC, it said that 2 tbs of water will cause accellerated separation and contamination of the fuel. then you get water (bottom) alky (middle) and gas (top).

honestly, i doubt that alcohol will gum up a carb. its actually more "pure" than gasoline and leaves fewer deposits as it evaproates or breaks down.

[dannylightning]

mine idled messed up and it was the plunger on the choke cable sticking, took it apart, lubed up the cable it and it ran fine.. problem fixed

[b1pig]

to clear this topic...
i did remove the cap to adjust the air/fuel mixture. mine was already at 2.25 turns. maybe because it was a "sea level" bike? i bought it in Lakeland, Fl and we live in S.GA... not really enough change in elevation to worry about. we're at around 300ft MSL.

anyway, i rotated it out an extra 1/4 turn to 2.5 turns. idle issue resolved. cold start is easier, even on a weak battery.

thx for the tech, guys. :)

oh, btw...
i run 91/92 octane in the 250, same as my Ninja.

[Easy Rider]

oh, btw...
i run 91/92 octane in the 250, same as my Ninja.

And you felt a need to mention that.........WHY ??

It has been discussed to death, here and elsewhere and the consensus IS that not only is it a waste of money but in some cases might make the engine run WORSE.

[b1pig]

i run it because the engine is air cooled and doesn't have the thermal control of a water cooled engine. higher octane fuels are more resistant to knock/detonation. while the engine is a tad below what "requires" a higher octane rating, i have found that the bike tends to run more reliably with higher octane fuel. this is my experience based on fillups over the past couple of years.

oh, its also "easier to fuel both bikes at one pump and pay one fee rather than "insist" on putting 87 in there and pay a separate tab. if it would run on diesel and i chose to put that in there, what difference would that make? my bill.

dispite the good tech in here, i'm starting to feel less and less at home. :retard:

[Water Warrior 2]

dispite the good tech in here, i'm starting to feel less and less at home. :retard:
No no no, don't go away. Your opinions and experience is of value. What works for you may not work for the majority but I for one can understand your reasoning.

[blaine]

despite the good tech in here, I'm starting to feel less and less at home. :retard:
No no no, don't go away. Your opinions and experience is of value. What works for you may not work for the majority but I for one can understand your reasoning.
:plus1: Stick around.If we all agreed we would have nothing to discuss.
:2tup: :)

[Easy Rider]

dispite the good tech in here, i'm starting to feel less and less at home. :retard:

Why is that? I mean honestly.
What does it take for you to "feel at home" ?

[Water Warrior 2]

dispite the good tech in here, i'm starting to feel less and less at home. :retard:

Why is that? I mean honestly.
What does it take for you to "feel at home" ?
Come on Easy. Take a break from putting people on the defensive with some of your comments. Not everyone has the age and wisdom we have. I know you can be more helpful with your knowledge so please do so. Some of the newer members haven't been part of the ongoing discussions that we so often beat to death.

[Easy Rider]

[quote=b1pig]dispite the good tech in here, i'm starting to feel less and less at home. :retard:

Why is that? I mean honestly.
What does it take for you to "feel at home" ?
Come on Easy.[/quote:2g15o4qd]

Come on yourself.

I've been treading just about as lightly as I can lately without letting "stuff" just go by completely.

It was an honest question......as was the first one as to why he mentioned it in the first place.
I got an honest and useful answer to the first question......except for the "less and less at home" comment.

Just exactly who IS it that is taking an offensive posture......and why do YOU feel a need to stir things up even more ???

[dentheman]

b1pig - This forum is made up of all sorts, a cross section of the population, with different opinions and different ways of expressing those opinions. A few of us might appear a bit 'gruff' at times, and it does occassionally lead to a bit of a flaming war, but not so much lately. I think everyone here wants to help each other solve their problems and get along the best we can. Stay with us, even if it means ignoring the occassional comment that rubs you the wrong way.

[music man]

I've been treading just about as lightly as I can lately without letting "stuff" just go by completely.



What are you, the thread policeman or something, Why can't you just let "stuff" go by completely?

That statement is just ridiculous, its like you think it is your job to "police" The GZ250bike forum, well guess what, its not. Last time I checked you didn't create this site nor are you an Administrator of this site, so why don't you just chill out.

Of course now I have done more to assure that b1pig is going to leave the site by degrading her thread even further (sorry b1pig, please don't leave), but something had to be said to the "GZ site cop" :lol: .

[b1pig]

whether i leave or go is beside the point. every forum has its own demographic. For example, two forums that i take part in regularly... one is run on a "PG13" level, as its considered a "family" board. The other, not so polite. i can deal with what comes. the point is that -for the most part- this forum seems to be mostly laid-back types. which is cool. i'm not into the flame happy junk. however, if poked, i will poke back.

easyrider. if you have a suggestion or comment to make, make it. i have not been a member of this forum for that long of a time, but if my mere comment of running premium fuel in a bike which does not require it gets your blood pressure up... its on you. the fact that i choose to run a fuel which EXCEEDS Suzuki's suggestion is my choice and it surely is NOT going to harm the bike. I said I run premium, as .. in dealing with "other" forums when working through a fuel related tuning issue, that has often been brought up.

i'm not here to insult anyone's intelligence. there are people out there that know far more than me, and i have been wrong on more than one occasion myself... recently in fact. if i did know it all, i most certainly would not be on this forum asking questions. my experience with motorcycles is limited, but i'm far from uneducated on general automotive maintenance and fully understand the internal combustion engine.

most topics on use of a particular fuel or octane rating is weighted HEAVILY on opinion. some choose to. some follow manufacturer's recommendation. some dont. some drive a car that "requires" 91 or higher octane on 87 and never has a problem with it. i just did a search in this forum. i see that one of your posts related to how adding ethanol increases the octane rating. ok. so... if youre pumping 87, is it 87 counting the ethanol's effect or "87+". it would seem that the 87 rating is what they're going to make it for. so, if adding the ethanol accounted for points, youre actually runnin 85 ocane + ethanol.

have you considered fuel separation/breakdown? shelf life for gasoline hovers in the 45 day range, but that can be complicated by humid environments. addition of small amounts of water (as little as 2tbs) can contaminate the fuel and start early separation. also... alcohol (ethanol) ABSORBS water. (here's a helpful PROFESSIONAL website to confirm these facts: http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_eng ... tions.html (http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_engine_precautions.html))

my theory is... the bike doesnt get ridden as much as i'd like. therefore, considering that there is ethanol in the fuel, it WILL breakdown at some point. WHEN it breaks down, will i be left with 87 octane or 85 or less because of the alcohol? if i drain contaminants out of the tank and ride it away, will the fuel left in the tank.. though with less ethanol.... be ok to run? will it cause engine damage? these things concern me, because when the problem strikes, i may not be at home. besides that, each time that we put 87 octane in her GZ, the engine has exhibited some occasional knock under hard acceleration on particularly hot days. and, as stated... since my wife and i often ride together and my bike needs higher octane fuels (lighly modified 2000 ZX7), fueling up together at the same pump is less of a hassle. plus, we can see how petty of an expense this hobby is for us compared to other hobbys.

[bonehead]

You go b1pig. Very well put.

[Easy Rider]

whether i leave or go is beside the point.

It is beside the main point; it is a different point.

So, one at a time:
It is interesting and useful, maybe, to hear a new perspective on the gas/octane discussion. Thanks for that.

You still haven't answered the question about why you "feel less and less at home".

If you are going to drop these little "bombs" you should be prepared to explain them. I've got a sneaking hunch, given the experience that you claim with forums, that you knew EXACTLY what the expected result was of your little "jabs".......as is reinforced by adding "premium gas" to your sig.

I will try harder to ignore the bait in the future.

[Easy Rider]

but something had to be said to the "GZ site cop" .

No it didn't.

Would you rather have a forum where anybody could say anything, no matter how ridiculous and outrageous it is.......and that nobody would make any attempt to correct it or ask for a clarification ???

I wasn't upset.
It now appears that b1pig really wasn't either.
If you were, I'm sorry; get over it.

Seems like I remember YOU disagreeing with a few posts along the way.
Are you going to stop that too ???

[music man]

would you rather have a forum where anybody could say anything, no matter how ridiculous and outrageous it is.......and that nobody would make any attempt to correct it or ask for a clarification ???

Seems like I remember YOU disagreeing with a few posts along the way.
Are you going to stop that too ???

We obviously already have a forum like that, because you say ridiculous and outrageous things all the time, and how is saying " I'm starting to feel less and less at home" or that "I use Premium Fuel" a ridiculous or outrageous statement?

And I never claimed that I don't disagree with people in my life or on this site, sometimes needlessly, but disagreeing with someone and saying that "I've been treading just about as lightly as I can lately without letting "stuff" just go by completely" and attacking someone for simply stating that they use premium fuel and that they may leave the site because they are "starting to feel less and less at home" are two totally different things.

If you go by just that statement and attack, one would think that you are the ruler of this site, that you make the rules, that you are some kind of "big dog" around here, and the truth is, YOU ARE NONE OF THOSE THINGS!

You really need to go see a doctor Easy, one day you seem like a totally agreeable, likable fella, then the next you seem like some sort of deranged, mean, Berryman's B12 Chemtool employee. That is called Bi-polar disorder and they have medication for it, I suggest you look into taking some.

[Easy Rider]

and attacking someone for simply stating that they use premium fuel and that they may leave the site because they are "starting to feel less and less at home" are two totally different things.

What I said was in no way an "attack".
AND I wasn't the one who said ANYTHING about leaving the site.

I asked two legitimate questions and have received legitimate answers......so far.

There may be some bi-polar action going on here but I don't think it is with ME.
Lighten up a bit, please.
Maybe you should consider taking your own advice.

[music man]

What I said was in no way an "attack".
AND I wasn't the one who said ANYTHING about leaving the site.





Easy Rider Said "And you felt a need to mention that.........WHY ??

It has been discussed to death, here and elsewhere and the consensus IS that not only is it a waste of money but in some cases might make the engine run WORSE."

That is attacking someone who said absolutely NOTHING to YOU. That person did not say "hey Easy Rider you D@#khead, I use Premium Fuel", so you had no reason whatsoever to go on the attack.


And no one said you said ANYTHING about leaving the site, so on top of being Bi-polar it appears you are getting senile to go with it. I said you attacked someone for saying they may leave because they are feeling less and less at home here. AND on top of that, you went on the attack on Water Warrior for what? ASKING YOU VERY NICELY to chill out on the newer members and actually complimenting you in the process.

So you can say whatever you want about me to deflect attention away from the real issue here, that YOU need to chill the hell out, and quit attacking and belittling people that YOU PERCEIVE are not as intelligent as you are. Every time someone calls you out for doing this shit, you act like it is the first you have heard of it, knowing good and well that HANDFULS of people have complained about you and TO you about this same old crap, yet you continue to do it time and time again.

So now if you want to complain about an issue that has been BEATEN TO DEATH on this site, then this is it, the issue of YOU EASY RIDER, being mean, nasty, rude, and just overall an inconsiderate human being has been beaten to death on this site (well actually on SEVERAL SITES), so how about you quit doing it so we can actually talk more about motorcycles and less about your mental illness's.

I am done discussing this with you in this thread, if you want to discuss it any further, start a new thread in the appropriate section, or send me a P.M.

[b1pig]

Easy Rider.
I didn't consider your comment an attack, however i did feel that the comment was confrontational in nature. i'm not in the habit of being a poo-flinger, nor do i stir the pot. not intentionally.

cheers

[Easy Rider]

I didn't consider your comment an attack, however i did feel that the comment was confrontational in nature. i'm not in the habit of being a poo-flinger, nor do i stir the pot. not intentionally.


I'll accept those statements on face value........BUT I felt that your original "premium fuel" comment AND the "not feeling at home" one AND the jab you now have in your sig. are ALL confrontational.......or at least fishing for comments.

If that is NOT the case, then what WAS the point of making those open-ended statements in the first place ??? I can't figure any other reasonable explanation.

The little jab in your sig seems especially "in your face", in light of the present discussion.

[Easy Rider]

the issue of YOU EASY RIDER, being mean, nasty, rude, and just overall an inconsiderate human being has been beaten to death on this site (well actually on SEVERAL SITES), so how about you quit doing it so we can actually talk more about motorcycles and less about your mental illness's.

Pot, kettle.....black.

Nothing I have done is nearly as disruptive, mean, nasty or rude as the posts YOU have left in this thread.

Not even close.

I once again suggest a little introspection and taking your own advice.

[music man]

I apologize for letting Easy get the better of me and dragging this argument out as long as I did in this particular thread, I especially apologize to b1pig for basically ruining this thread, I will try harder in the future to respond in the appropriate section (which I have now done) to begin with instead of letting it run amok like this.

[patrick_777]

Please, stop running off the n00bs.

b1pig, please stick around. You seem reasonable enough to deal with the occasional riff-raff.

[music man]

Please, stop running off the n00bs.

b1pig, please stick around. You seem reasonable enough to deal with the occasional riff-raff.

YES SIR.

[Water Warrior 2]

dispite the good tech in here, i'm starting to feel less and less at home. :retard:
No no no, don't go away. Your opinions and experience is of value. What works for you may not work for the majority but I for one can understand your reasoning.
Oh crap ! Looks like I really helped start all this discussion with my one comment. I just don't want to see anyone leave because they feel ill at ease or unwelcome. This is a great little forum for a great little bike. Now can we all shake hands and carry on with a subject less destructive ?

[b1pig]

The little jab in your sig seems especially "in your face", in light of the present discussion.

yep. please note the ":p" ... i do have a sense of humor.
edit: :)

[Viirin]

nice avatar by the way - i'm all about the master chief :2tup:

So to bring this a bit more towards the title...did you get the idle sorted out? There were a lot of posts to sieve through so i thought i'd just ask instead - and before anyone asks, yes, i am that lazy

[b1pig]

yes, i did.

1- removed, disassembled and cleaned carb
2- valve adjustment
3- drilled off the cap on the air/fuel mixture screw. turned OUT 1/4 turn from current setting of 2.25 turns out, (end result is 2.5)

all is well thus far. :)

[blaine]

yes, i did.

1- removed, disassembled and cleaned carb
2- valve adjustment
3- drilled off the cap on the air/fuel mixture screw. turned OUT 1/4 turn from current setting of 2.25 turns out, (end result is 2.5)

all is well thus far. :)

You can "fine tune" the idle mixture with the bike running and warmed up.Turn your mixture screw out slowly till idle starts to roll(rich).than turn back in slowly to achieve the highest & smoothest idle.
:2tup:

[dannylightning]

what is a poo finger ??

easy, well you did make it sound like the guy was a idiot for making his statement. its not what you said, its the way you said it. i would have taken it as a insult or just some guy trying to be a dick if some one i did not know said something like that to me.

it is pretty much proven that if your bike or car does not call for the gas in the owners manual it is a waist of money and will make the bike run well not as good. but easy you alway seem to have a way with words around here and those words piss people off.

[mrlmd1]

Geez. been away for a week and it's just like never leaving. Deja vu all over again (Yogi Berra), here we go again. :popcorn:
Just pointless, it'll never be resolved, you have to realize there's a problem before you can solve it. Take it to the other thread (Hot Topics) and get back on topic here if there's anything else to say that's worthwhile about erratic idle. :)

[alantf]

if there's anything else to say that's worthwhile about erratic idle.

My missus says I'm erratic and idle. :blush: :crackup

[mrlmd1]

Good one alantf and back on topic too.
Maybe you can tell her you need to be "serviced". :roll: :cool:

[music man]

Take it to the other thread (Hot Topics) :)


Already done. :2tup: Just regret that I didn't do it A LOT sooner.

[mrlmd1]

I saw that thread before I read this one and saw what was going on, and that's what I was referring to.

[music man]

I saw that thread before I read this one and saw what was going on, and that's what I was referring to.


Oh O.K.