Major fuel problem

[chaindrive]

I had the GZ250 out for a nice ride two days ago and parked the bike in the garage as usual. I tried to start the bike yesterday to no avail. The starter just barely will turn the engine over. I started to remove the battery for charging when I noticed a strong smell of raw fuel. I removed the air filter and the filter and the filter canister are full of raw fuel. Worse, the crankcase is full of raw fuel. No fuel on the floor from the carb overflow tube. Something is very wrong, where should I start???

[alantf]

Sounds like the float in the carb is stuck. :tdown: If that is the problem, & you're handy with tools, it's not such a big job to fix it. Just remember that you're going to have to do an oil & filter change, whatever you find, so you might as well start getting the oil & filter, ready to do it as soon as you've fixed the problem. :tup:

[chaindrive]

Thanks for the help.

Should I get a carb kit also? I think you are 100% correct on the stuck float. The bike has 11,000 miles on it. and is a 2001 model. I am 150 miles from a dealer so I need to get everything at the same time. This is a great forum, it sure helps to have some backup. Thanks again.

[blaine]

You should be fine with a good cleaning of the needle & seat and the float bowel.After you are up & running you need you need to put some carb cleaner in every few tankfuls to keep from having the same problem again.Berrymans B-12 or Sea-foam are good ones to use.

:cool: :)

[chaindrive]

That's even better. I did discover a dealer only 80 miles away. I hope they will mail me an oil filter so I don't have to drive 160 miles. I sure do appreciate the help. Thanks again.

[Viirin]

I got one off K&N on ebay - seems to do the job fine and was a lot cheaper than the dealers around me

[blaine]

That's even better. I did discover a dealer only 80 miles away. I hope they will mail me an oil filter so I don't have to drive 160 miles. I sure do appreciate the help. Thanks again.
You can use the oil & air filter from Hiflo-Filtro,less than half the price of O.E.M. The air filter is#HFA-3503,It is listed for the G.S.500 but is a direct fit.The oil filter is #HF-136.Good luck.


:2tup: :rawk:

[Easy Rider]

Just remember that you're going to have to do an oil & filter change, whatever you find,

AND you need to remove the spark plug for cleaning or replacement and to run the starter for a couple of rev's to get the gas out of the cylinder.

Then you need to look at your petcock and be sure it wasn't left on PRIme. If it was NOT, then you might want to test the vacume shutoff function of the petcock before you call everything fixed. Unless that fails......or the float stuck right before you turned the bike off the last time.....the amount of gas that gets into the cylinder and crankcase should be very small.

Side note: You do NOT need to remove the battery to charge it.

[chaindrive]

Back again,

Thanks so much for all the information. I have the bike ready to lift up and go to work. I intend to adjust the valve clearance while I am doing all of the other. I found the step by step on the valve adjustment on the forum also. Isn't the internet a wonderful thing, I just love it. On the battery, I am going to go ahead and remove it to charge it, just because of all the gas fumes in the area. It is much better today, but was pretty stinky in there last evening. I think you are right on the fuel valve, it was in the wrong position and caused all this problem. I will check the vacuum line to make sure it is working properly. I sure appreciate all the help. I will monitor the forum, I am weak in some areas, but am a ham radio operator and do have some expertise in the area of electronics so I may be able to help someone and return the favor. Many thanks. CD

[blaine]

I would get the bike running properly before attempting a valve adjustment.Just so you don't compound a no start situation.

:roll: :cool:

[Easy Rider]

I think you are right on the fuel valve, it was in the wrong position and caused all this problem.

For the whole picture, you needed to read and understand the answers BEFORE mine too.

The valve being in the wrong position did ***NOT*** by itself cause your problem.

The needle valve in the carb must be stuck open at the SAME TIME to cause excess fuel flow.
You still need to be concerned about that needle valve and float because that is what actually caused the problem. If they are working right, you can leave the fuel valve set on PRIme all the time with no ill effect.

And I absolutely agree that you should NOT mess with the valves.......or anything else for that matter......until you get your excess fuel problem figured out and solved.

ONE thing at a time, please !!! :tup:

P.S. You do make a good point about getting the battery away from the gas fumes for charging. :whistle:

[chaindrive]

I agree with all of the above. I suppose the carb problem would have surfaced at some point even if the fuel valve had been in the proper position. I drained 7 quarts of fuel/oil mix from the crankcase yesterday. The battery was low on water, so I filled it and gave it a full charge. I left it on the smart charger overnight to make sure it is de-sulfated. It appears to take a full charge, so I think it will be okay. I am going to remove the carb today and see what gives. If all goes well with the carb I will fire the engine before adjusting the valves. I have a new oil filter coming from Amarillo today. What a mess, my wife says I smell like a gasoline refinery, and it must be true, the cat woin't have anything to do with me either.

[blaine]

I will fire the engine before adjusting the valves.
Make sure the engine is overnight cold before you make adjustments.If you don't have the special tool for adjusting the valves,a schrader valve stem remover fits perfectly, is cheaper and gives better maneuverability.The factory tool is a little to long for comfort.Good luck.

:2tup: :)

[dhgeyer]

Same thing happened to me early on. What a pain, and what a mess. In my case the gas was running out the air filter compartment onto the garage floor.

All of the above is pretty much correct, and all should be done. If you left it in PRI, then there's no reason to suspect the fuel valve unless it happens again with the fuel valve in the proper ON position.

Only thing I'll add is that float valves jam for a reason on these bikes. It can happen on any carbureted bike, but seems to be a chronic problem with the GZ250. It's because they get gummed up with gummy gas. I never took my carb off the bike or apart. I just got all the gas out of the cylinder and air box, and the air box drain, dried the air filter and re oiled it, and got it started. Then I ran several tank fulls of gas treated with Chevron Techron through the bike. No problems since then. From what others have said, that usually does the trick. Others will now chime in that products other than Chevron Techron work better. I won't argue, but I don't agree. I've had any number of fuel related issues with several bikes over the years, and Techron has never failed me. Available at any auto parts store. Use a double dose (double what it says in the instructions) to free up the float valve. Then, as a routine precaution, I'd suggest running tankful with a regular dose through every few tankfuls.

[blaine]

dried the air filter and re oiled it,
Is this a aftermarket filter?The O.E.M. filter is a dry paper style filter that oil will ruin. :??: :) Just clarifying so nobody oils a factory filter. :2tup:

[dentheman]

I will fire the engine before adjusting the valves.
Make sure the engine is overnight cold before you make adjustments.If you don't have the special tool for adjusting the valves,a schrader valve stem remover fits perfectly, is cheaper and gives better maneuverability.The factory tool is a little to long for comfort.Good luck.

:2tup: :)
Blaine, good tip about the schrader valve stem remover, thanks!

[bonehead]

I agree with Dave. I have gone to using nothing but Chevron gas. Takes all the guess work out of it.

[dhgeyer]

dried the air filter and re oiled it,
Is this a aftermarket filter?The O.E.M. filter is a dry paper style filter that oil will ruin. :??: :) Just clarifying so nobody oils a factory filter. :2tup:

Well, it's definitely not paper, and is of the type that needs oil, so if that means it's aftermarket, then it must be. I did not know that. Hard to believe, though, since the bike had less than 1000 miles on it when I got it. The manuals don't say anything about oiling the air filter, and the fact that they say to look for tears indicates paper all right. I wonder when mine got changed, and why. Maybe my incident wasn't the first time the float valve stuck, and the original air filter was ruined by gas, and replaced by the original owner. That kind of flooding would do in a paper filter I should think.

[alanmcorcoran]

Not sure if this is still true, but back in the seventies when I drove a cab I went through a LOT of gas. The cars I drove were 8 cylinder behemoths that you were lucky to get 8 mpg out of and we ran them 24 hours a day (basically until they broke down whereupon they were fixed an put right back out on the road.) Used to fill up at least once a day. I noticed a lot of the gas stations back then were serviced by the same suppliers, regardless of the brand they sold. However, not all the gas that came out of the stations was created equal. My theory at the time was that the difference was perhaps in the tanks and possibly the frequency of the fill (and - maybe maintenance?) I thought perhaps some of the stations ran lower than others and were therefore more likely to get condensation, rust and other tank crapola into your tank. This was in the days before fuel injection was common, and some of the carburetors (especially on "Chrysler products" as the mechanics referred to them) were kind of sensitive when accelerating from idle. I've noticed on the Strat (which does have fuel injection) I've had hard starts, and a certain je ne sais quoi after repeat visits to some sketchy stations out in the Boonies. Can't really put my finger on what the issue is, but I think there is still variability in the quality of what comes out of the hoses. Unfortunately, by the time I have an issue, it's too late to do anything about it. Kind of like food poisoning.

[Easy Rider]

I agree with Dave. I have gone to using nothing but Chevron gas. Takes all the guess work out of it.

I wouldn't be as confident as you seem to be.

I don't trust them (any of "them") to have what they advertise in all their gas all the time.......and not in a concentration high enough for "old fashioned" carbs.

FI systems don't gum as much because the components are not open to air evaporation of gas when not in use.

I'm glad that you are doing OK......but I want to know for SURE.....and thus "mix my own". :tup:

[blaine]

dried the air filter and re oiled it,
Is this a aftermarket filter?The O.E.M. filter is a dry paper style filter that oil will ruin. :??: :) Just clarifying so nobody oils a factory filter. :2tup:

Well, it's definitely not paper, and is of the type that needs oil, so if that means it's aftermarket, then it must be. I did not know that. Hard to believe, though, since the bike had less than 1000 miles on it when I got it. The manuals don't say anything about oiling the air filter, and the fact that they say to look for tears indicates paper all right. I wonder when mine got changed, and why. Maybe my incident wasn't the first time the float valve stuck, and the original air filter was ruined by gas, and replaced by the original owner. That kind of flooding would do in a paper filter I should think.
You are right, if the filter got soaked by fuel it would be ruined.It sounds like someone upgraded the filter.The O.E.M. filter is quite expensive & disposable.The aftermarket filter can be bought for the same amount or less & is reuseable.

:rawk: :2tup:

[Water Warrior 2]

Food poisoning..............I like that. And yes I did it to my Vstrom with FI. Filled up 3 or 4 times at a slightly off brand station here. Started getting FI malfunction codes upon start up with a cold engine. Switched back to Chevron and the problem went away. To Techron or not to Techron, that is the question. I now know the answer.

[dhgeyer]

I just checked Chevron's website to confirm what I thought: there are no Chevron or Texaco stations within 25 miles of where I live. There may be one in NH. So, like Easy Rider, I buy the additive and mix my own. I don't think it's needed every tankful.

I only buy gas from a busy dealer of a known brand when I'm around home. On the road I take the best I can get. Sometimes that isn't very good. Here's a shot of a gas pump I used at a "cooperative" in Anton, CO. I really didn't want to buy gas here, but it had been a while. I'm glad I stopped, as I found out that the next gas was about 100 miles away in St. Francis, KS. I wouldn't have made it.

http://s3.postimage.org/h1Umr.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/ykvscpvo/)

[blaine]

I'm betting there's lots of dirt & moisture in his under ground tanks.Good reasons to use a additive & a fuel filter.

:) :roll:

[Water Warrior 2]

Less than $3 a gallon. I would have to shell out more than $4 for the same quantity of 87 octane. Higher octane requires a bank loan.

[dhgeyer]

Less than $3 a gallon. I would have to shell out more than $4 for the same quantity of 87 octane. Higher octane requires a bank loan.

Don't worry. The party down here will be over soon enough.

[chaindrive]

Hello again,

Well, I was not very successful. I pulled the carb after draining the crankcase and removed the bowl. I removed the floats and the needle valve and seat. I could find nothing wrong with anything, so after a liberal application of b-12 chemtool I re-assembled the carb and put it on the bike. I decided the battery was ka-put so purchased a new one. The engine fired right up, but will not idle. When I adjusted the idle down, it will idle for a few moments then die. It is then hard to start. I can get a 1500 rpm idle or nothing. I smell raw fuel but am unable to detect anything on the bike the floor or the carb. (slight smell, running or not). What now???

[blaine]

It sounds like your float may be hanging up,or out of adjustment,as float height is critical.It takes very little to move it out of adjustment.Did you install a new air filter as the bike will not run correctly without it?
:)

[Easy Rider]

The engine fired right up, but will not idle. When I adjusted the idle down, it will idle for a few moments then die. It is then hard to start.

I think we need a "sticky" thread for "Proper use of the choke."

It seems to be coming up a lot lately in all the forums I visit.
SO......what ARE you doing with the choke while this is going on ????

It will NOT run good without the air cleaner in place and it pretty much won't run at all without the choke partly on until it gets good and warm.

Of course, if the needle valve is still leaking and you are getting too MUCH fuel, application of the choke might make matters worse.

After having the carb off, I don't think a slight odor of gas is unusual.

[chaindrive]

Hello,

Well gang it kicked my behind. I worked on it all day with no improvemnet. I gave up this afternoon and took it to the dealer. Sorry I copped out but just wasn't getting anywhere but more frustrated. Thanks for all the help. Regards, Chaindrive.

[blaine]

Hello,

Well gang it kicked my behind. I worked on it all day with no improvemnet. I gave up this afternoon and took it to the dealer. Sorry I copped out but just wasn't getting anywhere but more frustrated. Thanks for all the help. Regards, Chaindrive.
Let us know what the dealer finds out.Good luck. :cool: :roll:

[Water Warrior 2]

Hello,

Well gang it kicked my behind. I worked on it all day with no improvemnet. I gave up this afternoon and took it to the dealer. Sorry I copped out but just wasn't getting anywhere but more frustrated. Thanks for all the help. Regards, Chaindrive.
Don't feel bad about the lack of success. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. Let us know what the dealer finds.

[chaindrive]

Hello the camp,

Went to the dealer yesterday morning to check on progress of repair. Well, hunting season is here and you know how it is, maybe in 3 to 4 weeks. Yeah. I picked up the bike yesterday afternoon and brought it home. (No Charge) I took the carb off this morning and took it to my shop. I printed off the pages of the service manual for carb repair and took them with me. Ripped it apart I did!! Anything that would come off was removed. I put B-12 chemtool in a metal coffee can and dropped in all the parts and the carb. (No rubber or plastic) Soaked the sucker for about 3 hours and then blew it all out with 110 psi air. Sprayed B-12 in every hole I could fine and did the 110 psi air again. Put it all back together and checked the float for proper adjustment. Put the carb on the bike and primed the bowl. Turned it to ON after about 15 or 20 seconds. Checked the oil level just to be sure. Turned on the ignition and hit the starter. The engine fired off on the first turn and came down to about 900 rpm. I tried it three or four times and then rode it on the highway for 6 miles. Idles great and runs very smooth. I put 2 ounces of seafoam in the tank and I think I am good to go. Thanks for all the help and encouragement. See you on the road or the forum. Chaindrive

[blaine]

The engine fired off on the first turn and came down to about 900 rpm. I tried it three or four times and then rode it on the highway for 6 miles. Idles great and runs very smooth.

Congratulations on beating the beast.Your idle when warm should be around 1300 rpm,any lower and your engine will not get proper lubrication.
:) :2tup:

[Water Warrior 2]

Way to go. Success is always a reason to smile. Give yourself a pat on the back. :2tup:

[alanmcorcoran]

I took the carb off this morning and took it to my shop. I printed off the pages of the service manual for carb repair and took them with me. Ripped it apart I did!! Anything that would come off was removed. I put B-12 chemtool in a metal coffee can and dropped in all the parts and the carb. (No rubber or plastic) Soaked the sucker for about 3 hours and then blew it all out with 110 psi air. Sprayed B-12 in every hole I could fine and did the 110 psi air again. Put it all back together and checked the float for proper adjustment. Put the carb on the bike and primed the bowl. Turned it to ON after about 15 or 20 seconds. Checked the oil level just to be sure. Turned on the ignition and hit the starter. The engine fired off on the first turn and came down to about 900 rpm. I tried it three or four times and then rode it on the highway for 6 miles. Idles great and runs very smooth.

Today sir, you are a Manly Man! (Wish I could be one...) Congratulations on beating that sucker into submission. Keep riding it regular like if your weather permits.

[b1pig]

i think like chaindrive and myself....

we're all confirming with certainty that the carb on this bike is finicky and super-sensitive to any contamination at all.

i wonder if actually installing separate cutoff valve between the tank and carb would resolve some of that, (allowing us to burn off whats in the carb) to prevent deposits in the carb.

[chaindrive]

I am going to stop by Auto-Zone today and pick up a small in-line filter to put in the hose between the fuel valve and the carb. This won't hurt anything, and just might stop something from getting into the carb. Just a thought.