Motorcycle Fatalities Down in 2009

[Dupo]

Source: USA TODAY ARTICLE (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-04-21-motorcycle-crash-deaths_N.htm?csp=34&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+usatoday-NewsTopStories+%28News+-+Top+Stories%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher)

I agree with what was said in the article .. we need more education, not legislation. Educate motorcyclists and non motorcyclists alike. Motorcycle education should go hand in hand with getting your drivers license.

[Water Warrior 2]

So what you are saying is I shouldn't have waited till I was 62 for my lessons. Gotta agree with the article, education for everyone is the ticket.

[bonehead]

Good article. We just need "them" to quit pushing the helmet issue. It should be freedom of choice. I abide by the seatbelt law, but I don't agree with it!

[alantf]

I abide by the seatbelt law, but I don't agree with it!

I once saw an article in Reader's Digest (I was in the dentist's waiting room at the time :roll: ) about two cars colliding head on at a combined speed of 100 mph. (each car was doing 50 mph) Neither driver was wearing a seat belt, but both survived without any injury due to their air bags inflating. On the other hand, in 1992, I ran into the side of a truck that had pulled out of a side street, & stopped straight acrooss the road in front of me. My car didn't have air bags, but I was wearing my seat belt. I had managed to slow down from around 40 mph to 20 mph when I hit the truck. Result? The seat belt dislocated one of my ribs, & I still have the lump to this day. Any more comment needed? :mad:

[dannylightning]

Good article. We just need "them" to quit pushing the helmet issue. It should be freedom of choice. I abide by the seatbelt law, but I don't agree with it!

i think they should have helmet laws, every one on a motorcycle should be wearing a helmet. your head hitting the ground is often the worst thing that can happen during a wreck.

i don't always wear my helmet even tho i know i should, when i was in Tennessee and it was the law to wear one i always wore my helmet and never once complained about it. it is really a law to protect the guy on the bike.

seat belts on the other hand have actually killed people they also have saved people, in that case they should be optional but i don't think wearing a motorcycle helmet has ever killed any one during a wreck. and if you do hit your head you have a much better chance to live, and a much better chance you will not get brain damage.

[bonehead]

It's all in the circumstances. A friend of mine t-boned a car that pulled out in front of him. No helmet and it did screw his head and face up. The doctor, after hearing the logistics of the crash, came to the conclusion that if he had been wearing his helmet he would have either been killed or at a minimum paralyzed.
My stance is freedom of choice. We have too much government interference in this country.
BTW I wear my helmet most of the time.

[BillInGA]

I am against both helmet and seat belt laws. That being said, I always wear my helmet or seat belt (as appropriate).

[Water Warrior 2]

Yes Danny, seat belts may have killed a few folks over the years by some totally unforeseen circumstances at the time. But how many have been saved by comparison ? Seat belts, air bags, helmets and ATGATT reduce risk of injury or death dramatically in almost every instance.
Been wearing seat belts since 1966, long before it was law or even standard equipment in cars. Here is the reason. A young nursing student was a passenger in a car and was thrown out when the car flipped in a single vehicle mishap and the doors opened allowing her to land in the ditch just before the car landed in the same spot of real estate. All I saw was an arm sticking out from under the car. That left a permanent reminder to buckle up. I do agree with freedom of choice, my choice is to avoid injury by any means at my disposal and will gladly pay for my injury limiting gear.
It is all about the amount of risk we are willing to accept in our daily lives and how much pain we might have to accept.

[dannylightning]

It's all in the circumstances. A friend of mine t-boned a car that pulled out in front of him. No helmet and it did screw his head and face up. The doctor, after hearing the logistics of the crash, came to the conclusion that if he had been wearing his helmet he would have either been killed or at a minimum paralyzed.
My stance is freedom of choice. We have too much government interference in this country.
BTW I wear my helmet most of the time.

please explain how the helmet would have killed him, that just does not seem likely to me but weird thins happen all the time.

only thing i can see is that the helmet could catch one something and try to pull your head off.

[Water Warrior 2]

Don't know about the rest of the folks here today but it's time to dress up and go cheat death again.

[bonehead]

That's exactly what happened. The flesh gave way and the helmet would'nt have. He hit the drip edge above the door. They figured the helmet would have slowed the impact down and probably snapped his neck.

[dannylightning]

never really thought of it like that till you said the helmet would have got him. that was the only possibility that seemed logical, i may never wear my helmet again lol

[bonehead]

never really thought of it like that till you said the helmet would have got him. that was the only possibility that seemed logical, i may never wear my helmet again lol
He was only going 20-30 mph and he has a scar from the inner corner of his eye back to the base of his skull. Pushed the drip edge almost a foot in. needless to say, he's got a hard head.

[dhgeyer]

The statistics are known and convincing. I can't quote them, but I've seen them, numerous studies worth. Seat belts are much more likely to save your life than a motorcycle helmet, though both save lives far often more often than they cause injury or death. Everyone has an anecdote to the contrary, but in these cases the numbers are decisive, and they don't lie.

However, helmets are not the panacea that the press would have us believe, and most people do. From non-riders, when they find out that I ride, more often than not the first thing out of their mouths is "Do you wear a helmet?". It should be "Are you trained?", or "What safety/training related books have you read?", or "Do you ever drink any alcohol before riding?" or "Do you take unneeded risks because it's more fun?".

Having said all this, I am proud to report that I live in a state with no helmet or seatbelt law for adults. I think people should be free to be as stupid as they choose as long as it's their own hide they're risking. Now, here's the most common counter argument: "Your stupidity is driving up the cost of health care, and everyone has to pay for that.". Here's what's wrong with that. 1) It's basically not true, or if it has any truth, the effect on others is minuscule compared to other stupid behavior such as not exercising, carrying extra weight, using tobacco, drinking to excess, eating unhealthy foods, etc. Those habits are what is really driving up the cost of health care in a big way. 2) It's a slippery slope. If I can tell you to wear a helmet or seatbelt today, because your stupidity may cost me money, then tomorrow I can legally force you to go to the gym, tell you what to eat and how much, tell you to stop smoking, and etc. 3) Limiting basic freedoms without a very strong reason is not what my country, at least, is supposed to be about. Other countries have different traditions, be we are supposed to be about respecting individual liberty.

End of rant. And I always wear my seatbelt and a full face helmet, which probably did save my life on one occasion.

[mrlmd1]

If you don't wear the helmet or covering gear, then you should have to pay the cost of the head injury or skin grafts or traction and casts. No one else. If you have no insurance, you should be SOL if you screw up and have no protection, IMO.

And alantf, are you really blaming the seatbelt for a "dislocated rib" (probably a fractured costo-cartilage junction - where the rib and cartilage join in the front of your chest)? What do you think would have happened to you, your injuries, without the seatbelt - maybe a fractured sternum and multiple ribs from hitting the steering wheel, a cardiac contusion ( bruised heart), broken nose/facial bones, etc, etc,. You should be happy you had that on, instead of blaming it for an injury.

And the doctor who said the helmet hitting the car could have broken the guy's neck. That's crap, you don't see any reports of neck fractures caused by helmets. Another totally misinformed off-the-cuff expert opinion buy someone with little or no knowledge or expertise to back up a statement like that.


Helmets are basically intended for and designed for saving your face and head from the injury sustained when you fall sideways off the bike and hit your head on the road, from a height of about 6' or so. It will not protect you from slamming into something at 50 mph and coming out unscathed. Get you expectations in order and don't expect them to save your ass or head in ANY crash or accident circumstance, and don't blame any protective gear for your injury, 'cause it ain't so. Whatever injury would have been much worse without the protective gear.

[music man]

The statistics are known and convincing. I can't quote them, but I've seen them, numerous studies worth. Seat belts are much more likely to save your life than a motorcycle helmet, though both save lives far often more often than they cause injury or death. Everyone has an anecdote to the contrary, but in these cases the numbers are decisive, and they don't lie.

However, helmets are not the panacea that the press would have us believe, and most people do. From non-riders, when they find out that I ride, more often than not the first thing out of their mouths is "Do you wear a helmet?". It should be "Are you trained?", or "What safety/training related books have you read?", or "Do you ever drink any alcohol before riding?" or "Do you take unneeded risks because it's more fun?".

Having said all this, I am proud to report that I live in a state with no helmet or seatbelt law for adults. I think people should be free to be as stupid as they choose as long as it's their own hide they're risking. Now, here's the most common counter argument: "Your stupidity is driving up the cost of health care, and everyone has to pay for that.". Here's what's wrong with that. 1) It's basically not true, or if it has any truth, the effect on others is minuscule compared to other stupid behavior such as not exercising, carrying extra weight, using tobacco, drinking to excess, eating unhealthy foods, etc. Those habits are what is really driving up the cost of health care in a big way. 2) It's a slippery slope. If I can tell you to wear a helmet or seatbelt today, because your stupidity may cost me money, then tomorrow I can legally force you to go to the gym, tell you what to eat and how much, tell you to stop smoking, and etc. 3) Limiting basic freedoms without a very strong reason is not what my country, at least, is supposed to be about. Other countries have different traditions, be we are supposed to be about respecting individual liberty.

End of rant. And I always wear my seatbelt and a full face helmet, which probably did save my life on one occasion.


:plus1: :plus1: :plus1:

[dannylightning]

dhgeyer that was beautifully written, i like it.

mrlmd1 you are grossing me out with all your breaking limbs off of your body talk and scaring the newbies hhahahahahah

[Water Warrior 2]

Grossing out a few newbies and oldies may prompt them to dress for the crash.

[alantf]

And alantf, are you really blaming the seatbelt for a "dislocated rib"

So ........... They can send a man to the moon, but they can't design a "safety device" that doesn't injure me (and I'm forced to wear)?

[bonehead]

I'm out. Too many know it alls on here. :redflip:

[3-D Video]

Two million people in the U.S. are permanently injured in automobile accidents each year. 20% of those are the result of brain injuries… that's 400,000 cage drivers and their passengers who could have been better off waring a helmet.
400,000 is a significant group! Wouldn't it make more sense to pass helmet laws on their behalf first? I'm sure it would be, so I resent being singled out as a minority voting bloc.
And yeah, I also put seat belts in my car... back when I had to buy them at an airport.

[dannylightning]

I'm out. Too many know it alls on here. :redflip:


well you may not agree with everything people say on here but every one is entitled to their opinion and people on here are definitely going to piss you off from time to time. but on the other hand there is a lot of good stuff on here too.

don't take it personally if some one does not agree with what you said, it happens

[bonehead]

That's not it. I was stating a fact that came from a professional and some people say its crap. Some people on here just think that their opinion is the only one that should be considered.
Just tired of the "I'm right and every one else is wrong" attitude of some of the people on here.
I was'nt starting a debate on helmet laws. I just passed on an incident where the medical professional felt that my friends injuries COULD have been worse had he been wearing his helmet due to the physics of the accident.

[dhgeyer]

That's not it. I was stating a fact that came from a professional and some people say its crap. Some people on here just think that their opinion is the only one that should be considered.
Just tired of the "I'm right and every one else is wrong" attitude of some of the people on here.
I was'nt starting a debate on helmet laws. I just passed on an incident where the medical professional felt that my friends injuries COULD have been worse had he been wearing his helmet due to the physics of the accident.

Well, if it was me that offended you, I apologize. Anything I said was not intended to attack your post. As I said before, everyone knows of some incident in which a helmet or seat belt does more harm than good.

Actually, I can recite such an incident myself. In 1951 my father hit a telephone pole square on at too way much speed for the icy conditions (which caused him to lose control). The front end of the car collapsed completely. This was before the days of telescoping steering columns. Dad dove down under the dashboard on the passenger side. When he saw the car later, there was a steering wheel shaped cutout in the back of the driver's seat. Thankfully, this was also before the days of seat belts.

I still believe that, statistically, you're better off with one than without one.

[Easy Rider]

I just passed on an incident where the medical professional felt that my friends injuries COULD have been worse had he been wearing his helmet due to the physics of the accident.

SO, I'm confused.
Just exactly what kind of reaction did you expect from your post ??

That is NOT a smart assed question; I am serious.

It stimulated additional discussion......which is good.
What was your point in posting that in the first place......if not giving a different twist to the discussion ??

Since you appear upset with the reaction that it produced, it seems that you expected everyone to say "Well, that's proof right there that helmets are bad."........which I am pretty sure was NOT your intent.

If things like THIS are going to get your blood pressure up and make you upset........maybe you should opt out of internet forums. None of them are all sweetness and light.

With VERY few exceptions, nothing is posted in THIS forum with the sole purpose of being an obnoxious ass, just to provoke other users.

CHILL !! :cool:

[bonehead]

No Dave it was'nt you . It was the statement by mrlmd1 that the doctors observation was crap.
He did'nt see the patient, hear exactly what happened at the crash, witness testimony about the impact, or anything else related to the crash.
It was just a blanket statement that the doc was wrong, and yes he is entitle to his opinion.
Anyway, enough. Sorry I ever brought it up.

[dannylightning]

No Dave it was'nt you . It was the statement by mrlmd1 that the doctors observation was crap.
He did'nt see the patient, hear exactly what happened at the crash, witness testimony about the impact, or anything else related to the crash.
It was just a blanket statement that the doc was wrong, and yes he is entitle to his opinion.
Anyway, enough. Sorry I ever brought it up.

he is actually a she. lol. i can see how she pissed you off but don't take it personally. she does seem to be knowledgeable about bikes and gives out good advice from time to time. she stated her opinion, and doctors don't know every thing. he just made a educated guess about what could have happned. weather he was wright or wrong i don't know but i can see how the edge of a helmet could catch one something and snap your head back.

it could happen.

[bonehead]

I apoligize for the gender mix up. Don't want to piss anyone off!!!

[dannylightning]

I apoligize for the gender mix up. Don't want to piss anyone off!!!

lol

[alantf]

I apoligize for the gender mix up. Don't want to piss anyone off!!!

lol

Hang on a minute.......... now I'm TOTALLY mixed up. Which he's a she? :??: :cry: :)

[dannylightning]

I apoligize for the gender mix up. Don't want to piss anyone off!!!

lol

Hang on a minute.......... now I'm TOTALLY mixed up. Which he's a she? :??: :cry: :)''

hahahhahah when bonehead was referring to mrlmd1 he refereed to her as he.

there should be a little male or female tag under every ones name so there is no confusion about who is a man or a woman so no one gets offended.

[dannylightning]

I hope i am not wrong, i am pretty damn sure i remember some pictures of a woman posted by mr and from what i under stood it was them.

i hope i am not wrong, if so i am going to feel like a complete idiot.

[dhgeyer]

Well, I clicked on mrlmd1's profile, and the gender field is set as "Male".

[dannylightning]

Well, I clicked on mrlmd1's profile, and the gender field is set as "Male".

there was a picture on the picture a day thread, it was a silhouette of a naked woman. and my memory of that was that some one posted, i did not expect a pic of you like that. and from that i got the impression that they were a woman. maybe i read it wrong. i don't know. but if it says male they probably are. :??:

[Easy Rider]

No Dave it was'nt you . It was the statement by mrlmd1 that the doctors observation was crap.

he is actually a she. lol.

:shocked: :roll: :lol: :crackup

Hey, Doc, when did you have the operation ??? :poke2:

I'm pretty sure that he IS a he. :)

I also think I remember that he is a retired neurologist/brain surgeon........which explains why he has a definite (and informed) opinion on the subject.

It probably also explains why he tends to come across as somewhat egotistical when expressing it. :whistle:

There are a lot of different and interesting personalities on this forum. Each should be taken for what it IS and not twisted into a personal attack. Perception is often different than reality. Tolerance is a virtue.

[dannylightning]

No Dave it was'nt you . It was the statement by mrlmd1 that the doctors observation was crap.


I'm pretty sure that he IS a he. :)



damn it :retard: i apologize for the misunderstanding

[music man]

Yea I am pretty sure that naked woman was his wife.

[Easy Rider]

Yea I am pretty sure that naked woman was his wife.

And just EXACTLY how would you know that ??? :shocked: :??: :biggrin:

[bonehead]

Very true Easy. But I think the trauma surgeon has enough training also.

I got an idea, lets get the two docs to argue about it so we can get on with the fun stuff!!

[music man]

[quote="music man":3teeawjy]Yea I am pretty sure that naked woman was his wife.

And just EXACTLY how would you know that ??? :shocked: :??: :biggrin:[/quote:3teeawjy]


Because I think he said it was a picture of his wife, could be wrong and don't really feel like searching for it.


[Edit] There was no mention of who it was, so I guess I was the one having a senior moment that time Easy Rider. :drool:

[Easy Rider]

I got an idea, lets get the two docs to argue about it so we can get on with the fun stuff!!

There really is no arguement.......or shouldn't be, if everybody keeps things in perspective.
No safety device is perfect and the wise person goes with the odds.

The odds ARE that helmets and seat belts both have an overwhelming positive affect on your chances of surviving a major crash. No rational person can dispute that.

Having said THAT, I also believe that the government has no business forcing individuals to do the smart thing.

There are exceptions. Bringing UP those exceptions does not, however, change the basic facts.......so what's the point of making mention of it in the first place ??????

You can not, or should not, throw something like that into a discussion.....where the only logical expected result will be to stimulate a more "vigorous" debate......and then complain when that actually happens. Right ???

[dannylightning]

[quote="Easy Rider":3k7prihb][quote="music man":3k7prihb]Yea I am pretty sure that naked woman was his wife.

And just EXACTLY how would you know that ??? :shocked: :??: :biggrin:[/quote:3k7prihb]


Because I think he said it was a picture of his wife, could be wrong and don't really feel like searching for it.


[Edit] There was no mention of who it was, so I guess I was the one having a senior moment that time Easy Rider. :drool:[/quote:3k7prihb]

really ?? :roll:

[diffluere]

I am pretty sure it says I'm a female under my avatar, and under danny's and easy's it says male. Maybe we should just change all of our avatars to pics of ourselves instead of our bikes =P

Here's my helmet debate contribution:

I don't know how people ride without one. The wind noise irritates me, and for speeds over about 30mph I close the visor. I kinda want a skid-lid for summer so my head doesn't get so hot, but damn its SO LOUD! And then people ride around with no helmets and extremely loud pipes! I like my hearing. The benefits, TO ME, outweigh the risk that I MIGHT hit something that MIGHT cause a helmet to break my neck. Without a helmet I'm going to be pissed off about the noise and the wind in my face, so I'm probably more likely to crash!

I don't, however, think the government needs to tell people what to do. The only thing it really does is piss people off and give cops another reason to give out tickets and earn more money for the government!

[alantf]

Maybe we should just change all of our avatars to pics of ourselves instead of our bikes

I pefer Bugsy - one of my rabbits (eyes left!) :)

[Sarris]

So THAT'S what that is. I couldn't figure out what kind of animal it is from the avatar.

:lol:

[alantf]

So THAT'S what that is. I couldn't figure out what kind of animal it is from the avatar.

:lol:

Ohmygaaaaaaaawd! Don't let him hear you say that! "No Bugsy, not the throat!" :)

(BTW, he's an Angora :) )

[alantf]

And this is Bugsy's friend, Chicho. He's a Belvier rabbit.

[mrlmd1]

Boy, it's pretty funny on here, you go away for a day or two and the conversation drifts all over the place and conjecture reigns supreme.

FYI, I am quite male, a retired cardiac/thoracic(chest)/vascular surgeon, also with extensive and varied trauma experience, and I speak from knowledge and vast experience, not off the top of my head, and I say it as I see it. You can take it anyway you want, based on your own opinions or experience or hearsay from someone else.
And that pic that I took years ago and posted on the other thread of a woman's silhouette was never mentioned to be my wife or anyone else, it was a pic posted as a joke/spoof on that thread to lighten up the conversation.

Now back to the regular programming.

[music man]

And that pic that I took years ago and posted on the other thread of a woman's silhouette was never mentioned to be my wife or anyone else, it was a pic posted as a joke/spoof on that thread to lighten up the conversation.



Yes I know, I went back and edited my post to rectify my mistake on that one. I thought that you had said that, but I had slept once or twice since then, so I went back and looked, and sure enough, there was no mention of who it was in the picture.

[Easy Rider]

Without a helmet I'm going to be pissed off about the noise and the wind in my face, so I'm probably more likely to crash!

They make an accessory called a wind-SHIELD and it does pretty much what the name implies. :roll:

It cuts down on the noise some and reduces the wind pressure and IMPACT of rocks and bugs a LOT......helmet on or not.

Do you have "love bugs" around G'ville ???

[Sarris]

All of Florida gets them. They've been so thick on my windshield I've had to look over it to see the road.

TRUST ME, she may not know it yet, but she WILL get a windshield or a face shield for the "love bug season"

:biggrin: :skull: :biggrin: :skull: :biggrin: :skull: :biggrin: :skull:

[Easy Rider]

TRUST ME, she may not know it yet, but she WILL get a windshield or a face shield for the "love bug season"

Yep. Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "I hate those f'ing bugs." :crackup

[diffluere]

Yeah I have a little windshield, the SlipStream Spitfire haha. http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/pr ... shield.jpg (http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/productimages/OG/0000-Slip-Streamer-Spitfire-Windshield.jpg)

I don't like the way the big ones look. I am pretty sure I annihilated an entire species of bugs on the way back from Leesburg yesterday. I had them all over the windshield and the shin area of my jeans. It rained today but tomorrow it's motorcycle washing time!!! The rain is all the Jeep gets for a bath.

I wear a full face helmet with the visor closed so the bugs stay out of my eyes. A few huge ones have hit me in the face and had I had the visor open, it could have been dangerous and really painful!

Now if I was smart enough to wear gloves, I could avoid getting hit in the hands with bugs that feel like rocks but leave nasty goo on me...ick.

[burkbuilds]

I've got a full windshield on my bike and I still get hit with bugs, and bird crap, so I always wear a helmet with a face shield. I got a direct bird crap hit about two weeks ago that was so big, and directly centered on my face shield that I had to pull off at the next exit, find a gas station, take my helmet off and wash it! Helmet "saves your brain", helmets "break your neck" I don't care, I just don't want to take a direct hit from buzzard poop in my face! If I could figure out a way to have a face shield without the helmet, I'd probably do it in the middle of the summer when it's over 100 degrees here, but that doesn't seem likely, so I wear a helmet, with a full face shield, year round.
As diffluere noted, it also helps to knock a few decibels off the sound as well, and even with my full helmet I'm thinking I'm gonna start wearing some type of hearing protection with it because the last couple of two hour trips I've been doing have ending with "ringing" in both ears and that's damage I would prefer not to incur.

Danny, as to your earlier question about how wearing a helmet could possibly cause someone's death, well, somewhere on here about a year ago I posted some papers I had to research and write for a class and I chose Mandatory helmet laws as my subject. I went into my research convinced that wearing a helmet would increase your chances of survival in a motorcycle accident, but by the time I finished my research I was convinced that it's a statistical wash, if you don't wear the helmet then you have a slightly higher risk of dying from a head injury, if you do wear a helmet, you have almost exactly the same increased risk of dying from a broken neck. When mandatory helmet laws are passed the number of fatalities usually drops not because fewer people who are in a motorcycle accident die if they are wearing a helmet, but because fewer people ride motorcycles when mandatory helmet laws are in force and thus there are fewer riders out there having accidents, but the same number of deaths per number of accidents stays pretty much the same before and after the helmet laws are passed or repealed. There are just a lot of people out there that refuse to ride at all if they are forced to wear helmets, so the overall number of deaths drops and that is the stat the government always uses to "prove" that helmets save lifes, but all it really proves is that motorcycle riding is dangerous and if less people ride motorcycles fewer people will die in motorcycle accidents. So I'll have to come down on the side of the people that say the government should just stay out of it and let the individual decide, otherwise, one of these days somebody is gonna notice that you are about 30 times as likely per million miles driven to die on a motorcycle than in a car and they'll ban motorcycle riding period.

So, why do I wear a helmet? Well, as previously stated, so I'll have something to hang my face shield on that keeps the bird crap out of my face and the helmet keeps my head nice and warm in the Winter too!

Having said all of that, does the helmet offer you any protection? YES! If you go sliding down the road on the side of your face, you will wish you had worn a helmet, and it might mean that you'll still have an ear on that side of your head and your teeth and nose somewhat in place afterwards, but I am not convinced that it will save your life. Same thing with the gear, will it keep your skin in place? Absolutely, at least a heck of a lot better than without it, but will it keep you from having massive chest trauma and dying from it, doubtful, broken limbs, probably not, but in a minor wreck, one that you probably wouldn't have died from anyway the helmet and the "armor" will absolutely give you a much better chance of walking away from that accident without a major, painful, disfiguring, damage to your hide! But I still think it should be your choice to make not some government officials call.

[Water Warrior 2]

Good grief BB. That makes too much sense and is far too logical. Are you sure you are from this planet ?

[mrlmd1]

Sorry BB, but I don't agree with your statement or the logic of it that "if you do wear a helmet, you have almost exactly the same increased risk of dying from a broken neck".
Statistics can be played with, manipulated, interpreted or misinterpreted any way you want. And like those old tests, some things can be true, true, and unrelated. The helmet per se doesn't break your neck, or contribute to it. When your head and body hit something traveling at 30, 40, 50, 60 mph, you may get a broken neck from the trauma. You would have the broken neck maybe anyway. Or your head may have been totally mashed absorbing some of the impact so maybe your neck would not have been broken. You will get broken bones, fractured livers and spleens, the armored jacket and pants won't protect you from that. All bets are off in those magnitude accidents, the gear will not protect your body from that and was not designed to.The energy delivered in those crashes far exceeds the capability of the gear to protect you and is used as an argument that there is no reason to wear the gear because you will die anyway, of something else.
The helmet is designed to protect your face from road rash and your brain or skull from an impact equivalent to falling and hitting the ground from a height of six feet. I would like you to show me one report of a broken neck from someone wearing a helmet falling off the bike at slow speed, say even less than 30-40 mph. The helmet will not save you from any injury hitting a tree or wall at high speed and maybe you break your neck doing that, so what?, with all your other injuries, all the other multiple trauma, it makes very little difference. At least maybe your face will look good for the viewing. Just imagine the magnitude of the injury to your head and face without the helmet. We have had this discussion before, and just because something is written, especially on the internet, doesn't mean it's true or that proper logic was used to interpret the results. For whatever reason you guys want, either wear your gear or don't. It's not my skin you're saving, it's yours.

[burkbuilds]

mrlmd1, Well, first of all, I did most of my research using Peer reviewed Journal articles because that is the level of integrity required for the type of papers I was writing, not just Johnny know-it-all's opinions on the internet. If you want those stats, I've already quoted the research references in the papers that I posted, and you are welcome to look them up yourself instead of taking my word for what those Journal articles stated. I don't really disagree with your statements that the gear will protect you from scrapes and minor injuries, but just as you stated, in a major wreck they won't save your life and that is what I also stated. I also agree with you that statistics can be manipulated, and my contention is that is exactly what we usually see in regard to helmet use and the "reduction" in deaths from motorcycle accidents. When you actually read those statistics for yourself, instead of just reading someone else's "summary" of those stats, I think you will find that they don't support the belief that helmet use saves lives in an accident, what you will find is that when helmet laws are forced on riders, many of them just stop riding, and so the overall number of motorcycles on the road goes way down and the number of deaths decreases proportionally to the number of riders on the road. The same number of riders die per accident whether they have on a helmet or not though, that statistic just doesn't change and yes, there are some states that actually keep records of what caused the death and in those states the proportion of deaths due to broken necks increases with helmet use at the same rate that the number of deaths from brain injuries decreases with helmet use, so either way you die. It should be pretty obvious that if the overall number of deaths per accident remains the same and the proportion of those deaths attributed to neck injuries vs brain injuries is also a statistical wash then the helmet didn't save any lives. Now, again, having said that, YES, it certainly does reduce the amount of "surface" damage you receive in a non fatal accident, and I guess if it really maters to you how you look in a casket then you probably will look better dead if you were wearing a helmet when you died, but I plan to be creamated, so it doesn't really effect me personally. So why should the government make me do something that won't keep me from dying under the false belief that it will? Does that not create a situation where a lot of people are out there riding under the false belief that because they are wearing a helmet they are going to be okay in a crash? I think it does and I think that probably puts some people in greater danger under false beliefs of safety. Shouldn't we be more concerned with giving folks accurate information and letting them make a choice about their own lives than deceiving them about the potential risks and making them feel safe when they actually are partaking in a dangerous activity? I understand that riding my motorcycle is putting me at an extremely higher chance of dying in an accident than someone in a car, but I bet there are a lot of people out there that think, "I'll be okay, because I've got this super expensive government approved, and mandated, safety device called a helmet on", but they are not any less likely to die in an accident than a motorcyclist who is not wearing a helmet. Shouldn't they know the truth about the risk they are taking? I think they should know the truth, and I think that people who want to promote mandatory helmet use under the false impression that it will save their lives in a crash are doing them a disservice at the very least! I bet there would be some people out there that ride now that might not ride if they understood the true danger, but instead we go around telling them they will be okay if they just wear a helmet, so they think they aren't in danger of dying and they ride. I think people should be told the truth not some government propaganda and allowed to choose for themselves what risks they want to assume in life.

[mrlmd1]

I agree with a lot of what you say, I also have a few caveats.
I would like to know the estimated speeds of those accidents for one thing, as all accidents are not the same and they cannot be lumped together. And we had this discussion before - I don't agree with how the data was interpreted, there are a lot of variables missing from consideration. But we all get the point.

I think there should be some disclaimer on all the gear - ie, this jacket/pants/gloves may not protect you from serious skin abrasion sliding over pavement at over 20 mph for more than 50 feet, or some such thing, and, this helmet won't protect your brain/skull/neck from injury at an impact at over 20 mph, etc, etc. Put these things into proper perspective instead of promoting them as absolute "safety" devices. Still the choice is yours whether or not to wear them for whatever additional protection they provide. But without them, and without proper insurance, don't expect someone else to pay for your hospital care and recovery, your new skin, broken bones and neuro rehab.

[alantf]

the choice is yours whether or not to wear them for whatever additional protection they provide.

Not in some American states, & all of England/Europe it isn't :??:

[Water Warrior 2]

Good discussion here. I believe there will always be an instance where ATGATT will never prevent injury or death in even the most minor mishap. But also there will be an instance that ATGATT will perform beyond all expectations and save your ass from sure death or maiming. Riding really is a crap shoot but I like to give myself better odds of survival and a good chance of walking away from a minor mishap.
Sometimes I just have to clamp my jaws closed when seeing the lack of safety gear some folks have on. After all it is their choice and we do have and have earned that freedom of choice.

[dhgeyer]

One thing that hasn't really been stressed in this thread is that a full face helmet is likely to help prevent some accidents by protecting your eyes from wind, bugs, small debris, sand, and etc. I rode for years without a full face helmet when I was young, as they were not in general use at that time. I wore goggles over my glasses, or sometimes just glasses. Even if you don't get hit in the eye by a big bug or other object, the wind in your eyes causes blurred vision, and along with the extra noise is distracting and fatiguing after a while. If there is any slight loss in peripheral vision, which with a well designed helmet there shouldn't be, it is more than offset by the better overall vision you have when your eyes are well shielded. A good windshield helps, but there is nothing as effective in this respect as a good full face helmet.

I think, too, that for long rides, the other protective gear covering your skin also helps prevent dehydration, fatigue, hypothermia, and other causes of loss of concentration. When it gets really hot, then you sometimes have to make a trade-off, but under most circumstances I think the more skin you protect the longer you can ride safely. I must not be alone in this, as you don't normally see serious distance riders without pretty much full gear.

[dannylightning]

hmm, well i see some one was talking about windshields, a windshield should be even with your nose and no higher, if it is raining and you have no windshield wipers you will not be able to see threw that windshield

if it is at nose level you can see over it and they claim that it will still deflect all the wind over your head. i guess that makes sense, a rainy windshield would be quite hard to see threw and could easily cause a accident.

and than you might get a busted head or a busted neck weather or no you are wearing your helmet lol

[diffluere]

BB - you could always wear one of these face shields! :neener:

http://www.globalindustrial.com/site/images/n-picgroup/2730.jpg


Instead of making helmets mandatory, maybe they should ban the wearing of flipflops on motorcycles. That just seems plain dumb, and how do you shift without hurting your toes/top of foot? Seems crazy to me! I am just kidding because I believe the less government, the better, but sandals seem way more dangerous than going bare-headed.

[Water Warrior 2]

A number of years ago I saw a young lady riding with flip flops. She had a lot of attention from the boys cause she had a helmet and a bikini to keep cool in the warm weather. Not really safety conscious but her choice.

[dannylightning]

lol, why wear a helmet if you aren't going to wear any thing else, especially shoes.

there has been times where i have almost went down stair because of flip flops, there just loose and don't stay on your feet well, maybe that is cus i never wear them. i cant see wearing them on a bike sounds like the dumbest idea ever to me. i always wonder what people are thinking when the wear them on a bike.

[burkbuilds]

When I was a kid in the early 70's the girl next door jumped on the back of another neighbors bike and took off down the street wearing flip flops, cut off blue jeans and a halter top. They went over the hill and laid it down right behind the asphalt paving machine that was paving our street. They were covered in asphalt, and apparently in shock, they actually pushed the bike back up the hill to where we were playing in our front yard. My mom came out and begin spraying water from the hose on them until the asphalt started falling off them taking big hunks of their skin with it. She stopped and called an ambulance, and I can still hear LeAnn begging me not to tell her mom she was on a motorcycle. (Don't worry LeAnn, she'll never figure it out). Prior to that day she was a very beautiful girl, since then she has been scared for life. I'm not sure what protection would have done against 2000 degree asphalt, but I bet she would have been hurt a lot less if she had been wearing almost anything more than she had on. By the way, Mike, the guy, didn't even have the flip flops or any shirt on, just cut off jeans and he was also covered in asphalt. Neither of them had helmets on either. It was truly horrible.

[dannylightning]

that sounds horrible

damn