Putting it into perspective...

[Mercutio57]

I just returned from my bi-annual trip to Guatemala, my first as a rider. As the weather was characteristically perfect down there I casually commented to a friend that I wished I had my bike with me. He asked what I had, and when I said it was a GZ250 he immediately said,

"vaya, una moto grande."

Believe it or not, in much-- arguably most-- of the world our little GZ is in fact a large bike. In Guatemala one will rarely see anything larger than a 125cc. Given that they pay more than we do for gas (from salaries that are a fraction of ours), it is of course no surprise.

Now I'm looking at my "Poderosita" with new respect and affection!
http://s2.postimage.org/jDQAJ.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsjDQAJ)

[blaine]

We sometimes forget how good we have it.Thanks for the reminder.

[bikerangel]

If he thinks the 250 is a large bike, he'd probably faint if he were told about my husbands 1100.

[Water Warrior 2]

If he thinks the 250 is a large bike, he'd probably faint if he were told about my husbands 1100.
Just imagine this fellow throwing a leg over Alan's Stratoliner. His heart would probably burst with excitment.

[alanmcorcoran]

Hey, my heart bursts with excitement evertime I throw MY leg over. It's a thing of beauty.

[Water Warrior 2]

Climbing up the side of the Vstrom almost bursts my heart. With a driver's backrest and hard luggage my old hips need a special technique or much pain develops.

[alanmcorcoran]

I don't have the driver backrest but I do have the rider backrest. Fortunately, it's snaps on and snaps off so it's mostly off. I can still actually lift my foot up and over directly to get on if need be, but years of bicycle riding conditioned me to "saddle up" horse style, sweeping the right leg over the backend.

Maybe you can get one of those things they used to have to hoist the knights on to their mounts.

[patrick_777]

Hey, my heart bursts with excitement evertime I throw MY leg over.

You sure that's your heart?

...IT'S THE VIBRATION! :smoke:

[alanmcorcoran]

Dude, I have a Yamaha, not a Harley. There's no vibration. Just the purr of 1850cc's of neck snappin', asphalt chewing power!

[patrick_777]

www.viberider.com (http://www.viberider.com)

[Water Warrior 2]

I don't have the driver backrest but I do have the rider backrest. Fortunately, it's snaps on and snaps off so it's mostly off. I can still actually lift my foot up and over directly to get on if need be, but years of bicycle riding conditioned me to "saddle up" horse style, sweeping the right leg over the backend.

Maybe you can get one of those things they used to have to hoist the knights on to their mounts.
Actually a more useful item would be outriggers or a sidecar.

[patrick_777]

Outriggers? You mean training wheels?

[alantf]

Maybe you can get one of those things they used to have to hoist the knights on to their mounts.

It's called a "serf" :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Water Warrior 2]

Maybe you can get one of those things they used to have to hoist the knights on to their mounts.

It's called a "serf" :lol: :lol: :lol:
Not another mouth to feed. I am not a rich Knight.

[dannylightning]

Dude, I have a Yamaha, not a Harley. There's no vibration. Just the purr of 1850cc's of neck snappin', asphalt chewing power!

that sounds bad ass, can i take it out for a spin lol.

[dhgeyer]

Interesting. This thread started with a kind of social/philosophical observation about North America's rate of consumption compared to the rest of the World, or at least a good part of it. The second post followed with a reminder of how lucky we are. From there it has turned into a sort of typical Internet forum armchair arms race, with people gleefully sharing just how big theirs is.

I personally am quite aware of the disparity in wealth and well being between different parts of the World. I have very mixed feelings about it. Part of me is grateful for my good fortune, and selfishly wants to keep things the way they are. I guess that's the kind of nationalistic, capitalistic, "we made it all happen so we should reap the rewards" kind of attitude. Another part of me is not comfortable with that. I guess that's the post '60s social justice part of me that I never seem to outgrow completely. I'd be more comfortable if I could make up my mind once and for all whether or not I want to have a social/political conscience!

In any case, I do think that the very capitalistic forces that created the huge chasm between different levels of consumption worldwide are very quickly leveling the playing field. It's called the "Global Economy". Like it or not, we are all competing for jobs with people all over the globe who would die for the opportunity to do them for a fraction of what we think we're worth. So the message is, treasure that big SUV, Stratoliner, BMW 1200, big Harley, and etc., because we aren't going to be in this position forever. I really believe that within my lifetime (the next 20 to 25 years), most of us will be lucky to have a 250 or a small, efficient car of any kind. And, let the flames begin, I can't say that I honestly object to this change. In a lot of ways, I think it will be good for us.

[burkbuilds]

We've been studying this economic situation in my Political Science class in school. The two main points of view seem to be, (1) Capitalism works, countries who don't have a fully developed economy can achieve the same levels over time if they modernize and follow the "capitalistic" model. Counties like S. Korea would be given as examples of this "working". or (2) The capitalist system only works because it exploits the 80% of the worlds population that lives in the "Global South" and takes their raw goods and services away without proper compensation and those countries can't do anything to get out of poverty because the "system" is stacked against them by the Global North countries that control the world economy. Those countries would say that S.Korea was only able to achieve what they've done because the US "allowed" them to do that after fighting a major war on their land, as a way to win them over to and keep them as a partner in capitalism not communism.

Interesting debate. From what I've seen so far there's no consensus on which is correct. Political Science seems to be a lot better at explaining why something did happen once it's over with for 50 years, than at predicting what can or will happen given existing circumstances. I might also add that most people in the "Global North" (capitalist countries) favor the first viewpoint, while most people in the "Global South" favor the second viewpoint. (Which sounds a lot like whining to me, "it's not my fault, it's somebody else's fault that I'm in this mess.) But, that's probably because I live in the global north.

[alanmcorcoran]

Boy you guys sure know how to knock the fun out of neck-snappin', asphalt-chewing power!

I'm no expert on the global economy or political science but I have some expereince in business. In the business world there are many kinds of participants: Creators, inventors, researchers, promoters, and risk takers; hard working laborers; exploiters and parasites; cheaters, slackers and coasters. There are very few of the first category, and they go largely unappreciated by the next three even though, with the exception of farming, they create most of the "jobs." There have been disparities in wealth since the beginning of civilization and, contrary to the implications of the "Global South" theory, there is plenty of wealth in Brazil and Saudi Arabia and Zimbabwe and Mexico and Russia and China, etc. but it is held in fewer hands and most people do not feel they have any chance of accumulating any of it, (so they end up in categories 2-4.)

If you think our government is a bunch of sanctimonious, ineffective blowhards, they are noble geniuses compared to some of the regimes that these other places are saddled with. Culture and corruption are powerful economic forces and can often outweigh the effects of disparities in natural resources. (See Africa vs. Israel.)

And dh, if you think poverty will be "good for us", (a view I strongly disagree with!) you can join millions of severely over privileged folks sneaking across the border into Mexico for a better life.

[dhgeyer]

And dh, if you think poverty will be "good for us", (a view I strongly disagree with!) you can join millions of severely over privileged folks sneaking across the border into Mexico for a better life.

Alan,

I didn't use the word poverty. I don't think poverty, as I understand that word, is good for anyone. I think you probably know that. I also don't appreciate the sarcasm. I expected better from you.

I do think that, since we North Americans are able to do so, we (not all of us, but most) have become way too involved with the process of consumption beyond what is needed, or even healthy, for a good life. I think that explains a lot of our cultural difficulties. I think we'll be better off when we start paying more attention to other aspects of life, such as family, friends, parenting in particular, some sort of spiritual life (I don't advocate any particular "brand" of that), and voluntary service to others (not just financial, but as an active part of living).

I think there's a big difference between not having huge, "neck snapping" purely recreational motorcycles, and poverty. Remember, this is the GZ250 forum. A lot of people ride those, and have a lot of fun on them. It's great having the bigger, faster machines. But we don't really need them to go out and have a good time.

Dave

[Sarris]

I need both bikes to have fun. Conspicuous consumption? You Bet!!

:popcorn: :hide: :popcorn: :hide: :popcorn: :hide: :popcorn:

[burkbuilds]

I think Mercutio's original point was simply that we often fail to realize how well off we are and don't always appreciate what we have. Hope I'm not putting words into your mouth Mercutio. As Alan points out, there are definitely movers and shakers and followers and hangers on in every society. I'd also like to point out that some societies have more opportunities available to the general population to improve their economic situation in life, and yes Alan some, but not all, of that is directly a result of corruption in their local "system" whether it's capitalist, communist, socialist, whatever. dhgeyer makes an excellent point to ponder when he states that, "we (not all of us, but most) have become way too involved with the process of consumption beyond what is needed, or even healthy, for a good life." If you don't agree, just go out in public, sit down and observe how many overweight, obese, people you see in an hour, not to mention our "over consumption" of material goods. (Does anybody really need a hummer?) All of that is okay in my opinion unless the theorists are correct and I'm only able to enjoy this level of living, not because I work hard, or have made good decision, or even simply because by "luck of the draw" I happen to live in a prosperous country, but instead is because my country is exploiting people in another part of the world and subjecting them to a state of living that leaves the majority of them unable to access clean drinking water, any form of health care, and a short and miserable life. Our country was founded on the principle of everyone having the right to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, do we share in the blame for making it impossible for those in other countries to have those same "rights"? Liberty, by definition, is the ability to choose to try to do what you want as long as it does not harm another or prevent them from exercising their ability to choose to try to do what they want. As for the Pursuit of happiness clause, that was simply our founding father's compromise on wording because it sounds a lot more noble than John Locke's wording of "the right to own property".
Hey, this is getting way deeper than I expected in a motorcycle forum, but I do think it's worth asking ourselves if we bear some responsibility and if so what should we do in response. If we honestly take a look and conclude that it's not our fault, we have no responsibility then that's okay, but it shouldn't prevent us from asking the questions and looking for an honest answer.

[alanmcorcoran]

dh, didn't mean to take a mean swipe, but the "we're better off with less" argument always strikes a nerve with me. As it happens, although i have a few toys and a few bucks in the unstable bank, I am not an over consumer. But I don't begrudge anyone else that right.

The sad truth is, we probably need all this bullshit: beanie babies, McDonalds, Reality TV, just to keep our overpopulated planet busy. There is only so much work available on the farm and then the rest of us have to sell life insurance...

I guess what really raised my dander is I've spent time in the third world, it mostly sucks ass, and it bugs me when americans suggest we'd be better off if we were more like that.

[dhgeyer]

Sarris,

I wish it was that easy for me. I really do. Maybe it really is that simple, but I doubt it.

BB,

Thank you for reminding me. I should have also made the point that we would be happier/healthier if we were way less enamored with motorized entertainment, and more involved with human muscle powered outdoor recreation. I've had as much fun hiking and biking as riding. Well, maybe not, but close. There is a wonderful moment for me when I get to the top of a mountain, which, regrettably, I have not done in years.

Alan,

Huh? I'm speechless.

Everyone,

I must unfortunately, or fortunately, abandon this discussion and forum for a day or two. I am judging (appraising) at a Destination Imagination meet tomorrow. I'm going out there tonight, as the day starts at 7:00 AM, and will probably be a 12 hour affair. I'll probably sleep through Sunday. The energy level at these things is astronomical, and I thoroughly expect the kids to wear me out. So, I'll be back in touch sometime Sunday or Monday.

Ride safe everyone!

Dave

[mrlmd1]

Anyone want to talk about the politicians, whose sole purpose in life is to get re-elected rather than serve the good of the populace that elected them?
The banks, insurance industry, tobacco industry, and innumerable others spend so much money supporting their own interests and re-election campaigns, lobbyists, advertising (often if not most always, false), that if that money was spent here on healthcare, schools, infrastructure, and other people-oriented things, this country would not only survive in the world, but flourish. In many area, this country is third world and continues sinking under special interest groups with the money to further themselves.
If you do good (financially, as well as philanthropically), nothing wrong with spending your disposable income as you see fit. I worked my ass off all my life 'till now, did a lot for less advantaged people, and now, if I want to do for myself (and ? helping out the economy in my own way), then I will do that as long as I can.
What this country needs is to seriously think about elections and get those people in charge who will do the right thing, and get rid of politicians who just aim to stay in power, screw the people for themselves.

[alanmcorcoran]

The politicians, unfortunately, are a reflection of the populace. Capable people that could lead us are taken down by smear campaigns that emphasize their past mistakes and put their entire lives on trial. Americans seem to be horrified that a man has had an affair or once drank too much, or god forbid smoked weed. Single men are unelectable, period. We seem to be looking for some mythic perfect prince on to come forth and give us all endless goodies at someone else's expense.

As a result, most intelligent people don't want any part of it and most of the people running for office do so for the wrong reasons. I agree, the ones that are in there are beholden to those that funded their election. I don't know the real facts on Obama but one of the reasons I voted for him is he at least appeared to be raising a significant portion of his campaign money from individuals. Maybe that was all an illusion as well.

Even so, I am currently mostly content with this administration. They inherited some really bad stuff and so far have made a reasonable effort to try to fix things. I know they have blown through a borrowed trillion dollars but a good deal of that was in the works before they got in. The whole health care thing is and will continue to be a fiasco until people realize that healthcare is not a "right." (You can't have a "right" to things that someone else has to provide!) Doctors lost the battle of sovereignty to the intermediaries and it's a tossup to me as to which is worse: insurance companies or a government bureaucracy. I am happy that so far we have not invaded any additional countries for no good reason and that the war on weed has been reined in in favor of more importanrt pursuits, and even if he does not have any fantastic accomplishments to bray about, I think Obama's been reasonably articulate about what he's trying to do and some of it is working, albeit very slowly. A year ago the entire financial system was in meltdown mode and, while things are still very much in the dumper, the bleeding seems to have been stabilized, a result that I would not have predicted. Of course, this could all be the "dead cat bounce" before everything goes completely into the shitter.

As I said before, as bad as our system is (and it's plenty bad) it's better than most other places.

[blaine]

Two years ago,lost my voice,not my life to cancer.Am I bitter,angery,or sad? No.Can laugh,love,and,ride.That's all that matters.Just a thought.

[Water Warrior 2]

Two years ago,lost my voice,not my life to cancer.Am I bitter,angery,or sad? No.Can laugh,love,and,ride.That's all that matters.Just a thought.
Wow, I would be devastated. I do imagine I would soon see the light and be thankful though. We can be thankful for our health care system here. In many or most 3rd world countries you would have just been left to die at your own pace.

[blaine]

That was my point.Be thankful for what you have.I am.Wasn't always.

[zenbutcher]

Now I'm looking at my "Poderosita" with new respect and affection!


Interesting to see you use this word... After watching The Motorcycle Diaries, I decided I'd name my little 250 "La Poderosa" as Che called his Norton. Wikipedia translates this as "The Mighty One."


*Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Motorcycle_Diaries

[alantf]

"La Poderosa"

Wasn't that the name of the ranch on one of those old 60s tv serials?

[Water Warrior 2]

"La Poderosa"

Wasn't that the name of the ranch on one of those old 60s tv serials?


That would be "Ponderosa". Sheesh, we are really dating ourselves with this one.

[mrlmd1]

You had TV up there in the woods back then? :poke2:

[Water Warrior 2]

You had TV up there in the woods back then? :poke2:
Ya, we smuggled some sets across the border about 60 years ago. The high large antennas were a problem though. Actually Canada was only a year or so later than the U.S. with local TV.

[alantf]

................... and England bought all the American programmes......................... cheaper than making their own.

[alanmcorcoran]

We get the Beeb over here and, we used to get the original (superior) Office before it was replaced by the American version. Plus there is this little show called "American Idol" that seems to do pretty good (that was originated as "Pop Idol" I believe, in the UK.) I think there have been many other BBC shows imported either as is or "Americanized." Wasn't "Big Brother" a UK invention? Don't sell your country short: For my money, the Brits produce just as much TV crap per capita as we do.

[alantf]

the Brits produce just as much TV crap per capita as we do.

:plus1: :plus1: :plus1: :plus1:

[mrlmd1]

Anyone remember what this thread was originally about? The free association on here is amazing.

[alantf]

Anyone remember what this thread was originally about?

Nope!

As a matter of interest (or not, as the case may be!), if you own a television in England you must pay the government a "licence fee" of £142.50 ($215.00?) every year. As the BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) doesn't have advertisements, the government pays all its costs etc. out of this "licence fee". This means, in effect, that the bosses can pay themselves exhorbitant wages, & waste money in whichever ways they like. In the news, lately, have been reports that despite having sufficient studios etc., they've spent billions & billions of pounds on SEVERAL (billions EACH!) luxurious new studio & office blocks in London & several other major cities. They've all gone way over time, & way over budget, but that's no problem to them - it's tax payers' money, so they don't have to account for it - just tell the government what they want.

The other side of the coin is that everyone without a tv licence is on a data base, so they send out demands & threatening letters to people without a licence (and, believe me, some people in England DON'T have a tv. I myself didn't have one when I got divorced, & was moving home - but they still sent out the threatening letters) If you still don't get a licence they then send out detector vans to try to prove that you're watching tv. It doesn't matter if you NEVER watch BBC, you still have to pay up. If they catch you out (since it's the government you're "defrauding")you get a stiffer penalty than if you'd beaten up a little old lady.

All of this wouldn't matter so much if they provided halfway decent programmes, but the current trend of dumbing down, and filling as much space as possible with soap operas, and repeats of soap operas, and repeats of repeats of soap operas means that there is probably only around two hours of BBC a week that I find watchable. Luckily, we've got a system that gets us the four main English tv stations. This costs us €90.00 ($135.00) a year, to the company that fitted the system for us, so, even in Tenerife, it's only around half of what we'd pay in England. :tup:

[alanmcorcoran]

I'll watch TV when it is on, but I never turn one on. Except for maybe the Superbowl, or if we were to land on Mars or something. When the wife goes out of town it stays dark for the duration. I have a lot of other distractions that I find more appealing.

[alantf]

I'll watch TV when it is on, but I never turn one on. Except for maybe the Superbowl, or if we were to land on Mars or something. When the wife goes out of town it stays dark for the duration. I have a lot of other distractions that I find more appealing.

:plus1: I prefer to watch movies that I've downloaded from the internet. That way, I can watch what I want to watch,whenever I want to watch it.

[delgado3030]

Lotsa BBC info

What makes the BBC superior

http://s3.postimage.org/luLNS.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqluLNS)

[alantf]

Lotsa BBC info

What makes the BBC superior

http://s3.postimage.org/luLNS.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqluLNS)

When I was young, I never missed the original series. I'm not so sure (IMO) that the new series is anything like as good. :2tup:

[Mercutio57]

This is the first time I've checked this thread since my initial posting, and I must say it certainly is interesting to see what directions it has taken!

It is indeed ironic that the discussion quickly morphed into an "arms race," as one contributer so aptly put it. My point, quite simply, was that what is regarded as a tiny beginner's bike here is considered a substantial, full-sized machine elsewhere.

Put another way, it was a reflection on what is, or is not, "enough." And as I cruise my local roads, among motorcycles the size of cars, cars the size of trucks, and trucks the size of houses (and passing houses the size of warehouses!), it seems to me that for many of us there is no such thing as "enough."

Another interesting thing I've noted about my Poderosita is the way it gets people's attention right here in the U.S.

I live in a tourist destination, and on any warm weekend the streets of my town are packed with motorcycles, all of which are very large and expensive. The reality of the vehicular "arms race" is very evident. One might think that in the midst of all this fancy iron my little GZ would be dismissed or perhaps even laughed at, but the opposite is true. People often stop and look at it, ask me what it is, and tell me how much they like it. The fact of the matter is that in a society in which a Sportster is considered a beginner's bike many people have never even seen a little street thumper like the GZ. What used to be fairly common has now become a novelty!

On the name, Alberto Granado's Norton (only a 500, by the way!), was called "La Poderosa," which does mean "the Powerful One." It is feminine because the word for motorcycle, 'motocicleta,' is a feminine noun. My bike's name is the diminutive form, because she is only half the displacement of Granado's bike-- "the Little Powerful One."

Keep the shiny side up, folks!

[alantf]

My dad's Norton 500, complete with sidecar (& my mum). Must've been take around the last half of the 1940s.
http://s2.postimage.org/FkHnA.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsFkHnA)

[mrlmd1]

Alantf - don't you wish you had that now? :2tup:

[Mercutio57]

Great picture!

[alantf]

Alantf - don't you wish you had that now? :2tup:

You bet! He sold it & bought a Morris Minor 1000 van when I was still small.

[zenbutcher]

HAHA.. The real "La Poderosa" was also a Norton 500... That may be your Dad's bike with sidecar to the right!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3271/2783422481_87f038d14b.jpg

[alantf]

HAHA.. The real "La Poderosa" was also a Norton 500... That may be your Dad's bike with sidecar to the right!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3271/2783422481_87f038d14b.jpg

Well, it's certainly English. The sidecar's on the left. It's a wartime model (1939-1445) as it's got the shutter on the headlight, that had to be fitted at that period, so that the light couldn't be seen by German bombers. You can imagine how little light actually shone on the road, so the wartime accident rate in the "blackout" was enormous. It also appears to be painted army khaki, but I've never heard of a second world war army bike with a civilian sidecar attached. The English army only used bikes for dispatch riders (without sidecars) so I don't know who thought up that publicity photo. :??:

[dannylightning]

http://www.viberider.com

that is not even right.

[patrick_777]

http://www.viberider.com

that is not even right.

Depends on who you ask....and your gender.

[bonehead]

[quote="patrick_777":3caekftk]http://www.viberider.com

that is not even right.

Depends on who you ask....and your gender.[/quote:3caekftk]
Looked to me like the ladies were enjoying it ALOT. :rawk: