won't start - bad gas?

[i2kdave]

Yesterday, I rode about 35 miles, got gas, rode another mile or so to someone's house, hung around for about 30 minutes, then rode about a half mile down the road and my bike shut off at a stop sign and wouldn't start back up. The engine would turn over, it just wouldn't fire off. After tinkering with it for a few minutes, I finally got it to start back up by giving it full throttle while starting and I got about 5 more miles down the road before it shut off again, and it hasn't started since. The spark plug is firing, I know that much, and I'm suspecting I got some bad gas. Before I try anything else, I want to try draining all the gas out and replacing it, but I can't find anything in the service manual on how to do this. Anyone got any tips? Thanks!

[JWR]

Pull the fuel line off and turn the fuel lever to prime , or you could remove the tank.

Taking the tank off would be much faster.

Remove the seat... two bolts....pick up on back of tank and pull back.

[Water Warrior 2]

Pull the fuel line off and turn the fuel lever to prime , or you could remove the tank.

Taking the tank off would be much faster.

Remove the seat... two bolts....pick up on back of tank and pull back.


If you remove the tank the fuel lever should not be in prime position. And be sure to unfasten the hoses from the back of the fuel cock(lever). There are 2 of them, one for fuel to the carb and the other is a vacumn line from the engine. Now would be a great time to install an inline fuel filter for a couple bucks. And a little gas line cleaner to help rid the stuff mucking up the carb etc.

[Easy Rider]

Pull the fuel line off and turn the fuel lever to prime ,

+1

And be sure to drain the carb bowl too. That is done with the brass screw at the bottom......right next to the drain nipple.

Then use PRIme again for a minute or two before trying to start with the fresh gas.........or you can put it on PRIme and crack the bowl drain screw to be sure you are getting the fresh gas into the carb.

[Water Warrior 2]

Excellant idea, why didn't I think of that ? Oh here's one now. For future tank fill ups, if you see a fuel tanker off loading at the station don't go there. Try the next gas station instead. When the tankers off load fuel they stir up all the sediment in the underground tanks and you get very dirty gas. Or wait 24 hours.

[mrlmd1]

Let's start off the discussion with what you mean by "bad gas"?
Sediment?, water in it?, old, where all the volatile explosive vapors have evaporated?
Gas can last a year and still be OK if there's no water in it, sediment could clog filters or carb jets, so just emptying out a gas tank and starting over may not be the solution to your problem, but it's an OK place to start looking if you suspect that.
Just my comment that if you had "bad gas" it would be unlikely to run fine, then suddenly stop, then run OK again, then suddenly stop again. When it was running, was it smooth as usual, or rough, missing, backfiring, anything unusual? Lousy gas usually makes an engine run lousy.
You may have some other problem,like an intermittent electrical disconnect, short, something else. Even a faulty side stand switch or other cutoff.
How did you check the spark plug firing? Did you remove it and look at the spark? If changing the gas and trying to clean the carb doesn't work, look for some electrical problem.

[i2kdave]

Thanks for the tips! I haven't gotten around to messing with it yet, I have to find something to drain the gas into.

what you mean by "bad gas"?
I'm not sure, I just know my bike screwed up shortly after I filled up. lol It just seemed strange that it worked fine for 35 miles and then gave me problems right after putting gas in it. Could definitely be something else, but that was my first guess.

When it was running, was it smooth as usual, or rough, missing, backfiring, anything unusual?
It seemed to run normal for a few miles, then as I was approaching my dad's driveway, it finally cut off again as I was pressing in the clutch to downshift.

How did you check the spark plug firing? Did you remove it and look at the spark?
Yes, I took the plug out and held it against the engine while pressing the starter.

[i2kdave]

Still haven't had a chance to drain the fuel, but here's an update:
Tried starting it last night and it fired right up, ran for about 1 minute (although it seemed like the choke didn't have as much effect as usual) and then just shut off!

[mrlmd1]

If it just plain out quit all of a sudden instead of running rough and sputtering first, this sounds more like an electrical problem rather than "bad gas". Before you go and screw with emptying the tank, check out all the cutoff switches, like on the sidestand for instance. Or it could be the gas is not flowing altho this is unlikely if it just instantly stopped. To check this, put the fuel valve (petcock) on prime, remove the drain on the bottom of the carb and see if fuel flows readily and see what's in it if anything, ie., water or sediment. You do have the petcock set to the RUN position, right? Make sure you have no vacuum leak from the hose that goes to the petcock to open the fuel supply when it's running. You might try running it on PRIME and see if it quits, or on RESERVE. Possibly the screen over the RUN position intake tube is clogged.
I still think this is something other than bad gas. Even a dirty carb or something plugging it up. You could try putting some Berrymans in the tank at the recommended dosage and see what happens.
So many other possibilities, try eliminating them first before taking off the tank.

[Easy Rider]

You might try running it on PRIME and see if it quits, or on RESERVE. Possibly the screen over the RUN position intake tube is clogged.


:plus1:

And if it runs OK on PRIme, there might be a problem with the vacume operation of the petcock when in the RUN and RES positions......like a loose or cracked vacume hose......or defective petcock.

[Water Warrior 2]

Something else to be aware of. You might have dirty contacts in the kill switch on the handle bar. Just enough to shut you down the odd time but not enough to shut you down permanently. A little contact cleaner should do the trick.

[i2kdave]

ok, now it's back to not starting again
It won't start in run, prime, or reserve. Engine turns over, but won't fire. I drained fuel from the carb and it looked fine, there were a few specks of debris, but nothing major. I checked the vacuum and fuel hoses on the carb and they looked fine.

If it were an issue with a cutoff switch, wouldn't there be no reaction to pressing the ignition, instead of the engine turning over but not firing?

thanks for all the input!

[Easy Rider]

ok, now it's back to not starting again
thanks for all the input!

Two more things that haven't been mentioned in this thread (I think):
Be sure your battery is fully charged; the electronic ignition will quit firing before the starter stops turning.
A LITTLE squirt of starting fluid (or maybe even carb cleaner) should give you a quick indication of whether you really have a fuel delivery problem or a spark problem.

Oh, and in your first post you said that you KNOW the plug is firing.........so putting in a new one might still be a good idea; cheap and fairly easy. And often the very thing that you KNOW is NOT the problem........turns out to BE the problem. :biggrin:

[burkbuilds]

"Oh, and in your first post you said that you KNOW the plug is firing.........so putting in a new one might still be a good idea; cheap and fairly easy. And often the very thing that you KNOW is NOT the problem........turns out to BE the problem. :biggrin:"

I'll 2nd that recommendation, you aren't out much if it doesn't help.

[Water Warrior 2]

ok, now it's back to not starting again
It won't start in run, prime, or reserve. Engine turns over, but won't fire. I drained fuel from the carb and it looked fine, there were a few specks of debris, but nothing major. I checked the vacuum and fuel hoses on the carb and they looked fine.

If it were an issue with a cutoff switch, wouldn't there be no reaction to pressing the ignition, instead of the engine turning over but not firing?

thanks for all the input!

The entire switch housing has multiple contacts. The start button is a duel purpose switch, it shuts of the headlight and powers the starter at the same time. Then reverses the contacts when you let off the starter button. The kill switch powers the ignition system using different contacts. One set of contacts may be more subject to operating malfunctions than others. Also mentioned was the side stand switch, if it is loose or corroded it might shut off the engine when the transmission is in gear and you are on the move with the side stand in the up position. I am sure your problem is a minor one but you have to track it down for your own safety. A bike that randomly shuts down on the street is a liability.

[Easy Rider]

The start button is a duel purpose switch, it shuts of the headlight and powers the starter at the same time.

I don't have one to go look at anymore but my feeble memory says that the GZ doesn't disable the headlight during cranking.
True or false ?? :??:

[Water Warrior 2]

[quote="Water Warrior":156purba]The start button is a duel purpose switch, it shuts of the headlight and powers the starter at the same time.

I don't have one to go look at anymore but my feeble memory says that the GZ doesn't disable the headlight during cranking.
True or false ?? :??:[/quote:156purba]



Lynda's GZ disabled the headlight. Could be a Canadian thing only but I rather doubt it. Any other Canadians out there who want to go do a double check to clear this up. We don't have a GZ handy anymore to play with.

Dang it Easy, I just found my memory last week and now you've got me thinking it is broken. :cry: Oh well, I'll just start wearing a name tag again in case I get lost. :lol: :lol:

[music man]

[quote="Water Warrior":20nj7hy7]The start button is a duel purpose switch, it shuts of the headlight and powers the starter at the same time.

I don't have one to go look at anymore but my feeble memory says that the GZ doesn't disable the headlight during cranking.
True or false ?? :??:[/quote:20nj7hy7]


True, the headlight stayed lit while I cranked mine, so unless something was wrong with it (the GZ), it doesn't disable the headlight when you crank it.

[Water Warrior 2]

Okay, I stand corrected. Sorry to lead anyone astray. Memo to self, more brain food.

[mrlmd1]

Watching the headlight dim severely when you hit the starter when the bike won't crank is one of the clues of a dying or weak battery.
My '99's headlight stayed on when I hit the starter button.

[Water Warrior 2]

Watching the headlight dim severely when you hit the starter when the bike won't crank is one of the clues of a dying or weak battery.
My '99's headlight stayed on when I hit the starter button.

Good, another confirmation about the switch and my RAM(randomly active memory).

[alantf]

Lynda's GZ disabled the headlight. Could be a Canadian thing only but I rather doubt it.

Mine's a Canadian/European spec (yes,for some reason they also share the handbook) Mine doesn't cut off the headlight on starting, and in the parts that give the differences between Canadian/European (such as lighting legislation etc.) it doesn't mention anything about cutting out the headlight on the Canadian bikes. Plus, I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't do it on all bikes if it was a cost effective option.

[alantf]

If it were an issue with a cutoff switch, wouldn't there be no reaction to pressing the ignition,

Not so! Occasionally mine won't start. The starter whirrs fine, but the bike won't start. A quick off/on of the killswitch & it then fires up straight away. If you've covered all the fuel options, then (in my experience) the kill switch is the first place to look. They are notoriously cheap & nasty!

Edit :- I've just checked one of your earlier posts, where you say that you've checked the spark plug, & it's fine. I reckon that if it WAS the killswitch, then the plug wouldn't fire. Can anyone come in , here, & tell me if my last statement is correct) :??:

[Easy Rider]

Dang it Easy, I just found my memory last week and now you've got me thinking it is broken. :cry:

Oh well, I'll just start wearing a name tag again in case I get lost. :lol: :lol:

It's a bitch, ain't it! :roll:

Hmmm, name tag........maybe a good idea!! :crackup

[Easy Rider]

Watching the headlight dim severely when you hit the starter when the bike won't crank is one of the clues of a dying or weak battery.


That's a built-in feature. Automatic battery "load test".
Other makers have not "seen the light". :biggrin:

[Water Warrior 2]

Watching the headlight dim severely when you hit the starter when the bike won't crank is one of the clues of a dying or weak battery.


That's a built-in feature. Automatic battery "load test".
Other makers have not "seen the light". :biggrin:


:crackup 10 out of 10.

[i2kdave]

well, guess what....

I sprayed some starter fluid in the air intake and when I tried to start it, it sputtered a few times, so I decided to drain the gasoline and refill with new, and it fired right up! LOL It's running great, now.

Don't know what's wrong with that gas, I didn't see any water or trash in it, but there's definitely something wrong with it!
I won't be going back to that gas station!

Thanks for all the help!

[Water Warrior 2]

Stick to top tier gas with techron. That will keep the fuel system cleaner longer. I did try a cheaper gas here but the Vstrom developed a Fuel Injection code that would show up everytime it sat for more than 2 days. Switched back to the good stuff and no more codes to worry about.

[alanmcorcoran]

I suppose it's not really noteworthy, but it's nice that your very first guess (bad gas?) was ultimately the right one. I am currently out of town, but I have been "riding off" a tank to keep from (re-)developing gas/carb issues brought on by too much idleness. One more argument against having two bikes.

[Water Warrior 2]

Alan, send me the Strat and I'll keep putting fresh top tier gas in it for you.

[mrlmd1]

I'm real happy you got your bike running again, maybe you really did get a load of crap gas, but I just have a question and another comment or two.
Just out of curiosity - did you drain it out through the petcock on prime or did you remove the tank and dump it out from the filler neck? Did the gas smell funny? Usually "bad" gas has a rancid or foul smell to it. And the exhaust didn't smoke or smell funny? And you saw nothing in the gas you drained? No debris or dirt?
You got debris when you drained the carb,

I would be a little hesitant for a while and watchful that you solved your problem and would still carefully check the sidestand cutoff switch and the starter/kill button because you don't want to be riding along 50+ mph and have the engine quit and lock up the rear wheel before you can grab the clutch and prevent a skid.
Start up the bike, have someone hold it upright and jiggle around the sidestand and play with the switch to hit it or try and move it and see if the engine cuts off. Just to be safe.

What bothers me about this is that if the gas was bad, it's bad all the time it's in the tank, not intermittently, and the engine won't run right ALL the time with that gas. It won't run well for a mile or so then suddenly quit without warning, start up again after a few attempts and run fine for another 5 miles and then again suddenly quit like you describe. If the gas was bad it just wouldn't run well from the time you filled it up but it's possible the bike ran for a mile on just what was in the carb until the "bad" gas got in there, but then you went another 5 miles before it quit the second time. If the gas was bad enough to make it quit the first time, it should have stayed like that and not let it run again - the gas didn't get "good" all of a sudden and let you get home.
By draining out the gas you may have dislodged something obstructing your fuel line in the tank. Did you get a look into the tank (with a flashlight) after you drained it, and there's no rust or sediment or water in there?
And when you fill the tank each time, use REGULAR gas, not premium. That's what this engine is designed for and will perform to it's specs on that, being a low compression engine.

It's possible the carb is dirty and intermittently clogs, and you said you drained it "and got a few specks of debris, nothing major". That is major - there shouldn't be anything other than gas in the carb. If one of the jets is clogged with debris, that will shut the engine off real quick. Then llso, like I said, a dose of Berryman's might clean it out and wouldn't hurt either.
Anyway, I hope you solved your problem but be aware that this might not be the end of it.

[i2kdave]

did you drain it out through the petcock on prime or did you remove the tank and dump it out from the filler neck?
I drained it through the petcock on prime

Did the gas smell funny?
Not that I noticed, but I didn't compare the smell with the new gas.

the exhaust didn't smoke or smell funny?
I don't believe so.

you saw nothing in the gas you drained? No debris or dirt?
I didn't notice anything last night, but I checked the bucket again this morning after everything had settled, and I did see very small black particles in the bottom of the bucket, but it really wasn't a lot.

It won't run well for a mile or so then suddenly quit without warning, start up again after a few attempts and run fine for another 5 miles and then again suddenly quit like you describe.
I wonder if it could be because the tank wasn't totally empty when I filled up and some of the good gas was still in there?

Did you get a look into the tank (with a flashlight) after you drained it, and there's no rust or sediment or water in there?
Yes, I didn't see anything.

still carefully check the sidestand cutoff switch and the starter/kill button
I'll be sure to check those out! One question though - Wouldn't the sidestand cutoff only make it cut off while in gear?

[New GZ250]

Stick to top tier gas with techron. That will keep the fuel system cleaner longer. I did try a cheaper gas here but the Vstrom developed a Fuel Injection code that would show up everytime it sat for more than 2 days. Switched back to the good stuff and no more codes to worry about.


There is little if no difference in gasoline sold at various gas stations! I buy by price! I know this post will generate a bunch of ...! Go waste your $ Just my opinion
based of scientific evidence!
:neener:


Don’t pay for what you don’t need: All major brands, from Shell to Chevron to Mobil, have catchy slogans and marketing tactics to get you to choose their gas. They all claim to have fuel that’s better for your car. According to AAA national spokesperson, Geoff Sundstrom, it’s mostly bunk. Sundstrom told Smartmoney.com: “There’s little difference between brand name gas and any others.” That’s because since 1994, the government has required that detergents be added to gasoline to prevent fuel injections from clogging. It’s monitored by state and local agencies, and even the generic stations are held to the same standards. If anything, they may have slightly less detergent, but not enough to make much of a difference.

[alanmcorcoran]

Alan, send me the Strat and I'll keep putting fresh top tier gas in it for you.

Water,

We'll see how my appetite for long distance riding develops. Might be interesting to head up the West Coast to Alaska next summer. Or maybe just a (literal) pain in the ass. I did have some "Why exactly am I doing this" moments when I did my trip to Monterey in the fall. Perhaps with time I will learn to enjoy the trips more and reaching the destinations less.

In the meantime, The Strat has no carb and overall seems to have a more sophisticated approach to combustion than the GZ. It always starts right up, idles perfectly, runs perfectly and accelerates like a bat out of hell. No choke to mess with... even has a gas gauge and a tach! But it's still not a good idea to let it sit. And it prefers the higher octane stuff.

[Sarris]

Alan, my HD is the same. Fire it up cold, and drive it away. No muss, no fuss, all for the price of premium gas.

I like it!

:rawk:

[mrlmd1]

"I'll be sure to check those out! One question though - Wouldn't the sidestand cutoff only make it cut off while in gear?"

That's how it's supposed to work. All I'm suggesting is to fiddle with it while the bike is running, in gear and in neutral, and see if it cuts off. Maybe you have a glitch somewhere, or a short someplace in the wiring from the switch to ground, etc. If not, maybe all's well, just be careful for a while.

[Easy Rider]

One more argument against having two bikes.

No, you have that wrong.

Nothing wrong with having 2 bikes; it's all those OTHER responsibilities that are the bad things !! :poke2: :crackup

[Easy Rider]

What bothers me about this is that if the gas was bad, it's bad all the time it's in the tank, not intermittently, and the engine won't run right ALL the time with that gas.

Good post. Can I comment on this part? :cool:

It may not be the gas in the tank that is bad but something else.......like water....that tends to settle to the bottom......and then "splash" over the pickup tube sometimes but not others.

If the petcock has a tiny little "sediment bowl" under it, it doesn't take much water to have that affect. (I don't remember if the GZ has that or not; many do).

[Easy Rider]

Wouldn't the sidestand cutoff only make it cut off while in gear?

Yes......unless more than one electrical gremlin was at work.

[Easy Rider]

According to AAA national spokesperson, Geoff Sundstrom, it’s mostly bunk.

The key phrase there is "mostly". The fact IS that you both may be right......depending on exactly where you live.

Typically, in the really BIG metro areas, there is more than one gas wholesaler and the gas from one station to another might actually be different.

Is more sparcely populated areas, the likelyhood of there being any difference is really low. I live very near to a gas wholesale storage plant. Trucks from EVERY type of local station fill there; it is indeed all the same.....maybe with the exception of a few extra additives.

NOW........that all says NOTHING about how well the stations maintain their tanks and filters. I would hope that the major brands do a better job of than than the independents.......but in a given area, it might be exactly the opposite.

Bottom line: Do whatever works best for you and don't worry about it...........and don't preach to the other guy that his way is "wrong". :poke2:

[Water Warrior 2]

Alan, send me the Strat and I'll keep putting fresh top tier gas in it for you.

Water,

We'll see how my appetite for long distance riding develops. Might be interesting to head up the West Coast to Alaska next summer. Or maybe just a (literal) pain in the ass. I did have some "Why exactly am I doing this" moments when I did my trip to Monterey in the fall. Perhaps with time I will learn to enjoy the trips more and reaching the destinations less.

In the meantime, The Strat has no carb and overall seems to have a more sophisticated approach to combustion than the GZ. It always starts right up, idles perfectly, runs perfectly and accelerates like a bat out of hell. No choke to mess with... even has a gas gauge and a tach! But it's still not a good idea to let it sit. And it prefers the higher octane stuff.


Alan you would have a trip of a lifetime. Just head North to the Midnight Sun. And yes it is not really the destination but the ride and the sights on the way. A few years ago I would just pick a direction with a general destination in mind but nothing written in stone sort of thing. You can always make a left instead of a right turn just because it was there. Or you can just miss a turn with no regret. Was headed to the Grand Canyon and missed a turn. Oh well always wanted to see New Mexico. Was an interesting trip and met a lot of nice people.

[alanmcorcoran]

I think we have sufficiently hijacked this thread.

Back on topic, took the GZ for another run down Santiago to keep the gas flowing. On the way back I had a Harley on my butt for a while, two up. Guy had me in the upper gears/top speed, but I caught up to him and passed him when he had to stop for a light. Found I could beat him off a light (with the GZ!) through about third gear, or maybe his passenger started beating on him. At one point I had the GZ up to 75 on a slight downhill.

Weather was coolish today, maybe 58-60. Put on my Tourmaster caliber pants and put the liner in back in my jacket. Got in a quick 60 miles or so on the GZ before the sun went down.

[trykemike]

Hey Alan glad to hear that you are still having fun on the GZ. I have fun on every ride.