Well I just failed my MFC lol [Archive]

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alazar14

11-01-2009, 03:59 PM

Sup guys,

Well I just failed my riding portion of MFC,

Got a 100% on the written portion,

on the 2 days on range I never once dropped the bike, skid, did the figure 8 just fine, and all. Then test day came, and I absolutely ????ed up AFTER the figure 8.

Doing about 18 MPH I was spose to simulate a quick lane change I made the mistake of braking as I was changing lanes and not after so I dropped the bike on its left side.

Everyone thought I was going to be hurt because the side of the bike got shredded it was quite the quick fall. Only thing really hurt was my pride, and my leather boots a bit.

One thing is for sure, I learned the value of solid leather gear. These leather pants and boots only got scratched up a bit nothing at all happen to my hands gloves didn't even get scratched up much, leather jacket got a little bit of a rash on one arm but its minor. Coach said I went down doing about 12-14mph. Slid on the black top about 3 feet.

Usually I succeed on my first attempt at everything I do. I got my BA in college without a problem working on my masters, I have a 3.5 GPA and am an honors student. So I assume this is just something that is not going to come natural to me.
Again only real thing that was hurt is my pride. I was one of the best students the entire time, never made any major mistake, was often used as the first to go because the coaches trusted I would do the run properly and I always did. What makes it even worse is I was the only one who failed, and the last one everyone expected to.

I assume god is warning me like my mother has many months now that motorcycling is dangerous and I shouldn't do it. I still love it and quite honestly a little part of me enjoyed taking that first fall. I actually liked it. Just not @ that moment and time. So I guess ill go back to my Camaro finish up the semester and continue to look at the bikes from the window of my car.

mrlmd1

11-01-2009, 04:10 PM

You may be able to retake the test during the next class. If not, sign up again and go back for some more lessons/practice, if this is what you want to do. Don't give up so easily, your motorcycle career isn't over yet.

dannylightning

11-01-2009, 05:36 PM

doesn't sound like he or she, witch ever it may be is planning on giving up. sorry to hear that you failed. what did they say or do about you trashing one of their bikes. i have always wondered what would happen if some one trashed one of their bikes.

stuff happens you know, next time you will get it i am sure. riding a motorcycle is not exactly as easy as it seems for some people, a lot of beginners drop bikes some times more than once. i almost dropped mine a few times during the first month i rode. i realized what i did wrong and learned not to do that again. like pulling up to the end of my drive way turning the bars all the way while still moving and jamming on my front break.

alazar14

11-01-2009, 05:49 PM

Well im busy with college I may try to pick it up again later on. I have 90 days to re-take the test. Maybe in the 2 weeks I have of winter brake I can make the time to do that. If they offer it at that point.

Otherwise Ill just wait until later on in life god willing. Who knows maybe its just one of his ways to tell me im ether not cut out for it or just not ready yet.

Coaches were more worried about me actually asked if I was hurt. kept checking my knee and upper body and stuff, I told em I was fine, they filled out a paper asking me what happened and If I was hurt. That's really all that happened. They let me walk out while everyone else was celebrating passing. It was more the shame and pride that was hurt the most today. Also the fact I skipped studying for a test to make time for the MFC so ill prob get my first C this semester for that.

JWR

11-01-2009, 05:58 PM

Easy Rider

11-01-2009, 06:35 PM

break

Nice. REALLY nice. :skull:

dhgeyer

11-01-2009, 07:31 PM

During my (VERY) brief career as an MSF Ridercoach (instructor) the same thing happened to one of our students. Young man, never had any trouble all the way through, model student, natural leader, crashed on the swerve exercise. Everyone was amazed - students and instructors. It was kind of heartbreaking for all of us. This guy was one of the few people in the class that I really felt comfortable about giving a license to. Unfortunately, dropping the bike in any way, form, or manner during the test is an automatic failure. No leeway.

Don't worry about the bike. If it's like all the other states, they're donated by the manufacturers/dealers. I never saw one that hadn't been dropped several times. A lot of them were missing mirrors, so you had to pretend to check a mirror that wasn't there on the lane change exercise. The MSF is a consortium of manufacturers/distributors with (imagine this, what an amazing coincidence) the same address, board of directors, and personel as the Motorcycle Industry Council (MIC) - the industry's trade group. The MSF has been criticized heavily by some for designing their Basic Rider Course with the intent of making sure as many people as possible get licenses (in most places passing the course is either how you get the motorcycle endorsement, or one way of doing it). It is exactly like putting a group consisting of Toyota, GM, Ford, and Chrysler etc. in charge of handing out drivers' licenses to teenagers. Yes, I know they are state programs, but they are heavily subsidized by the MSF, including the donation of all course materials, materials used to train the instructors, and the bikes are donated by the MIC members. So the states, with a couple of notable exceptions, teach what the MSF dictates, exactly the way the MSF dictates.

Anyway, I digress. I would strongly suggest that you retake the test ASAP. It's amazing how quickly you start to lose what they crammed into you in three days. The whole course is like cramming for an exam. You can pass an exam that way, but it's not the best way to learn the material. And don't beat yourself up too badly. It happens.

JWR

11-01-2009, 08:57 PM

break

Nice. REALLY nice. :skull:

:??: :??:

alanmcorcoran

11-01-2009, 10:47 PM

Same thing happened in my class. There were two girls we were sure were going to fail (they had dropped bikes, couldn't shift, had trouble with the eight, etc.) but at least one of them passed. A guy that had a pretty serious Harley (and looked like a stereotypical badass biker) went down hard on the swerve after pretty much waltzing through the rest of the course.

He wasn't hurt badly, but, he didn't get up right away and he was limping pretty good when he got up. His brother was in the other class on the other side of the giant parking lot and he came to collect him. It was one of the sadder walks of shame I witnessed that year.

I had a similar slow speed version of this one about 800 miles in on the Strat - came around a corner in a parking lot at slow speed and a guy came whipping around another corner ahead of me, and I instinctively grabbed the brakes (and went right down.) Very minor damage to the bike in my case - the windshield, the floorboard and the brake lever took the impact and got some scratches. I managed to exit the bike before it hit and was unscathed.

I'm very careful with the brakes when I'm not going straight now!

They probably ought to stress what will happen if you use the brakes at the wrong time on that one a little more. I think in my case, they mentioned that it's best to brake before (as in "ideal") but not that it could really hurt if you brake during.

In any case, most of us, if not all of us on here, have had a kerfluffle or two (and quite a few have had much more than that.) Some of it is the learning curve, some of it is stupidity or over confidence, and sometimes it just ain't your day. If you enjoyed riding, it might premature to hang it up based on one mistake.

Water Warrior 2

11-01-2009, 10:51 PM

So now you have a reason not to brake hard and swerve at the same time. Stuff happens. Retake the test soonest so you don't loose your edge. I took a riding course in 2007 after riding more years accident free than most of the students had birthdays. I was the only one to drop a bike. Luckily it wasn't during the test. I already had my license but felt lessons were a good thing. I had to unlearn a lot of bad habits that were waiting to take me down. Don't dwell on the failure, remember what you learned by falling. You will do just fine.

alazar14

11-01-2009, 10:52 PM

Thanks guys

I would re-take it asap but the problem is I am quite busy until the winter brake. I maybe able to make sometime next Sunday just maybe, but I am not sure. They said that I could attend the 2nd class AND take the test for free once more. I think I am going to just loose points instead of actually doing it at the speed they want just to make sure I get done with it.

alazar14

11-02-2009, 01:01 AM

alanmcorcoran

11-02-2009, 04:59 AM

I think you are leaping to conclusions about your future propensity to fall off. You might drop a bike again, but it's not "more than likely." With a GZ or a Rebel, its possible, but not probable. On the other hand, if you can get a cheap used bike to learn on, there is nothing wrong with that.

You'll find three or four hours in a parking lot will make a huge difference, as will your first 50 miles, your first 100 miles, you first 1000 miles etc. If you plan to teach yourself in a parking lot, pick up a copy of Proficient Motorcycling.

Good luck.

BTW, someone on here from SD was selling a used '08 GZ (as am I, although I'm asking a little more than $1800.00)

Water Warrior 2

11-02-2009, 05:16 AM

WHOA THERE. Don't beat yourself up. Yes, your confidence is shaken up but this isn't the end of the world as you know it. Everyone drops a bike, no exceptions. The fact that you drop it and will learn from it is a bonus(trust me on this)especially while you had a professional there to tell you what you did wrong. Although you seem to have figured that out on your own. Best time to drop a bike is in a controlled environment with help readily available. The drop is only a set back not a complete failure to realize your goal. Stick with the original plan and make adjustments to get your testing done soonest.
Think of it this way. Now you have a story to tell future newbies when they get discouraged.

alantf

11-02-2009, 05:22 AM

break

Spelling police? You missed the lack of apostrophies! :whistle:

dhgeyer

11-02-2009, 08:42 AM

Im considering just buying a used 250 Rebel or something that I can find some what cheap (round the $1800) range and just learn on that. Maybe forget about buying from a dealer all together since now I know im more than likely going to drop it a ton of times.

Learn on my own @ parkinglots or something when I have some time. I can just take the bike in my truck there and back.

I, for one, think that this is an excellent idea. I don't think you'll drop it a ton of times, but there is much to be said for learning on a bike that you feel free to make mistakes on. My first bike was an 8 year old piece of shit. I paid $110.00 (1963) dollars for it. I was 16, and that's all I could afford. But, looking back, I think it was a blessing to have that beat up, slow, ugly old thing to learn on. If something bad happened, or was about to happen, I didn't give a second thought to the bike, and saved myself. And something that old didn't lose much value when I went to trade it in, so it's financially smart also, compared to buying a new bike and damaging it.

Just be careful to assure yourself that everything is working on the beater you buy. The pitfall is that you can buy a $1500.00 bike that ends up costing $3000.00 after you get into sound condition. I've made that mistake, too.

dhgeyer

11-02-2009, 09:01 AM

They probably ought to stress what will happen if you use the brakes at the wrong time on that one a little more. I think in my case, they mentioned that it's best to brake before (as in "ideal") but not that it could really hurt if you brake during.

I never took the course in CA, but, assuming they follow the MSF curriculum, this point is actually stressed over and over again, both on the range and in the classroom. The mantra is "Brake or swerve, but don't do both at the same time.". On some exercises they specifically say "Brake, then swerve.". They also take off points if you brake and swerve at the same time. The instructors are trained to watch for the brake lights during the test.

This is also stressed very strongly in David Hough's 3 books on riding, which are, as far as I am concerned, the collective bible of surviving out there.

I can understand someone not remembering this from the course, so please don't take this as a criticism. One of my biggest criticisms of the course is that it is so time compressed, people do tend to forget a lot of what they learned very quickly. My daughter was 16 when she took the course, and did very well on it. She's a very smart young lady, now 21. From conversations with her, I know for a fact that she had forgotten at least half of what she learned within a couple of weeks. Five years later she doesn't remember any of it as far as I can tell. What she knows about riding is what she learned from me on an ongoing basis.

One study showed that there was a significant improvement in accident statistics among riders who had taken the course as opposed to those who had not. We would expect that. What they also found out, which is disheartening, is that that advantage disappeared after about 6 months. In other words, after about 6 months, BRC trained riders weren't any safer than non-BRC trained riders. Now, there's some food for thought.

The real lesson here is, don't assume that the course teaches you to ride. Go back on a regular basis and reread the course material. Practice the exercises, either in a parking lot somewhere, or on an actual state range when it's not in use. Get David Hough's books and read them, every year during the Winter is a good way to do it. About the time you think that you have no more to learn, or that you ride "as well as you need to" is a real good time to stop riding and give it up. My opinion of course.

Easy Rider

11-02-2009, 11:31 AM

break

Nice. REALLY nice. :skull:

:??: :??:

The guy is pissed off, bummed out and probably a bit depressed and YOU..........have to jump his ass about a spelling/grammar mistake.

I'm sure it just MADE his day.......NOT.

Under the circumstances, I think it was rude and inappropriate.

Clear enough ?

Did I spell anything wrong ?? :roll:

JWR

11-02-2009, 11:51 AM

:shocked: :bong: :roll: :yawn:

mrlmd1

11-02-2009, 12:43 PM

And here we go again. :popcorn: :tdown: :jo: :puking: :facepalm:

diffluere

11-02-2009, 02:17 PM

I dropped the bike twice when I took the course. Doing the first straight-line-across-the-parking-lot exercise. I had never ridden a motorcycle before and pulled the front brake when the front wheel was turned. I freaked out and was like "OMG did I fail!?" The instructors were really nice and made me keep going. After that I did fine on everything else and passed the class. I felt so embarrassed and stupid though, everyone else in the class had prior experience and I was the only one starting fresh. Somehow I still did better than the older, more "experienced" guys on the riding test - I got a 6 and one guy with 40+ years of experience got a 13! So maybe practicing on your own with no one to tell you what you're doing wrong isn't the best idea. Then you might build up some bad habits that they will have to correct when you go back to the class.

I say get back on the bike asap before you over-analyze it and start to freak yourself out. Remember "look down go down?" I think they should add something about "think down go down." When I first started riding around I would talk to myself inside my head like "clutch in. downshift. light braking. front wheel straight! brake harder to stop." and now it's automatic.

alantf

11-02-2009, 02:38 PM

Somehow I still did better than the older, more "experienced" guys on the riding test - I got a 6 and one guy with 40+ years of experience got a 13!

O.K., it might sounds a dumb question, but not being American I don't know how the MFC works. Usually, the higer the score you get, the better the result. Are you saying that on the MFC, the LOWER the score the better? :??:

Moedad

11-02-2009, 03:25 PM

dannylightning

11-02-2009, 04:32 PM

most things here in America the higher points the better but occasionally you find something is the other way around..

Water Warrior 2

11-02-2009, 05:49 PM

The criticism concerning the time compressed teaching is common. It is tiring, stressful and "A bitch". But on the other hand I realized that if you can't handle it on a training course with controlled conditions and riding activities "How will you survive the street ?" I think the course is set up to weed out the non-riders and push the real riders to excell in their life on 2 wheels. It is also a matter of economics. The longer the course lasts the more it will cost.
The training we took was not government sponsored and was $700 a head. Best life insurance I can think of.

mrlmd1

11-02-2009, 06:43 PM

You should have taken it here in Florida. I think I paid $250 or maybe $275 for my 2 day course.
I also, real early on in the course, made the mistake while going around a turn at slower speed of hitting the front brake instead of pushing harder on the handlebar to lean the bike more (I thought I was going to fast and wouldn't make the turn) and the bike went down. I caught it, laid it down gently and shut it off - no damage done except to my ego, but I learned a valuable lesson real quick that I'm sure I won't repeat. You can be told or read all the advice but there's nothing like experiencing it yourself to learn the lesson.

alanmcorcoran

11-02-2009, 10:29 PM

dh,

I've mentioned it on here before (and each time I get a lot of crap for it, so I guess I better put my raincoat on) but I found the CA MSF course to be a pretty inefficient use of 16 hours. As I've said before, the overwhelming majority of the alleged 10 hours on the course was devoted to bureaucratic details, getting the bikes out of the storage locker, putting the bikes away, waiting your "turn", setting up the course markers, explaining the drill, lining up the bikes, starting up the bikes, effing with the bikes that did not start, pee breaks, drink breaks, lunch breaks, waiting for the fallen to be re-mounted or escorted off, etc. Plus we didn't even ride the motorcycles under power until two hours in and the last two hours was spent waiting one's turn to take the test. If I got one full hour of actual riding practice/guidance in the 16 hour course (five hours are spent watching video and taking a written test) I would be surprised.

***If you have never ridden a bike before, and especially if you don't own one, I think the MSF course is a good way to get introduced.*** See also: If you've never used a clutch, never ridden a bicycle, never ridden a two wheeled vehicle with a motor, never used a hand brake, never ridden in the rain, never drove a "stick", etc.

If you have more than a month of street/commuting time under your belt, you will **still** learn some things, if your instructor is any good (my instructor was marginal - he read the entire course verbatim from the instructor's guide - I had a hunch it was his first MSF class [maybe his first class of any kind] ever), but you will also spend a lot, if not most, of your time sitting around doing nothing.

(I paid $150 I think and I got a perfect score on the written and the riding, so my comments are not sour grapes. The only part I had trouble with was the figure eight in the box, but I managed to get it right when it counted.)

You are right about the fleeting nature of memory and I can't swear to precisely what they said about braking, but even after the Harley guy dumped his bike, nobody said "That's what happens when you swerve and brake!" I learned that one for myself on the Strat about six months (!!!) later (when, by then, I guess I forgot everything!)

PS. I had also read two Hough books prior and had practiced a lot in a parking lot prior.

dhgeyer

11-02-2009, 11:15 PM

Alan,

Sounds like you got a particularly bad one. They do vary. I think you're spot on that the course is much more valuable to someone with zero experience than it is to someone with any riding at all, but there is some value to it for anyone. I had been riding for a total of 10 years (6 when I was young and 4 after starting again) when I took it. It is possible in NH to get a license without taking the course. You get a permit, practice for a while (you get one month with a one month extension), and then take a test. The test is similar to the MSF test, but not as extensive, and substitutes a very tight cone weave for the U turn box. It is an older test. When I got my MC license back (I had let it lapse years ago) I bought my Vulcan 500 LTD, practiced for one week, and aced the test with no points lost. I took the course 4 years and many thousands of miles later because my daughter was taking it, and I thought it was a good idea. I had also by then read Hough's books, and had been subscribing to MCN for years. None of the course material was really new to me, but I did get a couple of bad habits pointed out to me. I aced the written and riding tests also, with no points lost. I also took the ERC the same year, and the Ridercoach Training, which involved taking the BRC again, essentially twice.

I think that you ran into a basic flaw with the MSF approach. You throw 10 or 12 people together. You have 16 year old kids who have been riding dirt bikes since they were 5 years old, and you have 55 or 60 year old overweight women who have never driven a stick shift, haven't been on a bicycle for 40 years, and are afraid of motorcycles. Many, if not most of the exercises rely on people going in circles at a certain speed. Some of them just can't do it. The instructors try to give them some extra attention, which may or may not help. The problem is that, since passing is not allowed on the course, if one or two people can't keep up, everyone winds up piled up behind them, and no one gets the proper benefit of the exercise. Frequently, it just doesn't work. Some instructors are more aggressive about "Coaching out" the students that are ruining it for everyone. But there is a lot of pressure on the instructors not to do that. It goes back to the MSF wanting people to get those licenses, which makes them much more likely to buy motorcycles.

Sometimes the course works if you get a fairly homogeneous group. Other times you get what you got. People crashing all over the place, which holds things up for far too long, and most of the exercises don't work well enough to teach what they are trying to get across. Most of the time it's somewhere in between.

You might consider taking the ERC (Experienced Rider Course) if it's offered where you are. It's only 1 day, all spent on the range, and you ride your own bike. You don't get the same kind of problems, and it's good practice.

As for the BRC, it's a lot better than nothing, and I still would encourage new riders to take it. But we could be doing a lot better with a different approach, which they do in other countries, resulting in much lower accident and fatality rates. I don't realistically think we'll see any big changes here anytime soon, though. The Motorcycle Industry Council, disguised as the MSF, is too firmly entrenched in the state organizations, and has actually taken some of them over completely, and is actively trying to take others over. One state, Oregon, has pulled out of the MSF program completely, and the MSF has sued them in an effort to discourage other states from following suit. There is a lot of controversy in motorcycle training circles now. As a point of information, David L. Hough is leading the charge in criticizing the MSF and the way it is behaving in the last few years. This is significant, as Hough is widely considered the dean of safety training concepts in the U.S., and a lot of the BRC exercises originated with his writings. They have been using them for decades, and have never credited him.

Water Warrior 2

11-02-2009, 11:31 PM

We had 2 three hour evening class room sessions and 4 six hour days on the bikes. First 2 days on the bikes we stayed in the training lot. Day #3 we were out on the street practicing and being corrected when something or some one went astray. Day #4 we actually hit the highway for a lunch trip. The course was very instructional with a variety of newbies and experienced riders(primarily me)which brought out the best and worse in all of us. The instructor was very good and he and his partner and other instructors are the only instructors in the province qualified to teach other new instructors.
30 hours for $700 is only a shade over $23 an hour for training. Not really all that costly for something that will last a lifetime.

alanmcorcoran

11-03-2009, 01:45 AM

Despite my grousing, I do have some MSF positives:

1) I was able to get in on "standby" so I didn't have to wait three months. Just squeaked in on that. The 24th guy did show, but he was a little too far past the Late Cutoff so they let me stay.
2) After some paperwork and bike inspection they did let me ride my own bike (a GZ natch!)
3) They got us in the habit of using both brakes. The gigantic dual front discs on my Strat will stop a speeding locomotive on a dime, but I like to use both brakes on the GZ. I also find the lighter bike brakes more evenly with both. I got pretty good at laying down rubber and panic stopping in a straight line - which came in handy a few weeks later when I failed to realize the guy in front of me was not moving until I was very, very close.
4) That effing box drill does teach you a lot about looking, leaning, clutch control and use of power to stay upright. We should have probably spent a few hours on that one. I think I only did it five or six times in total, three of which I went outside the line and one of which was the final exam.
5) I passed the test on the first try and thus did not have to go to the house of horrors that is the CA DMV to get my M1 endorsement. It's not entirely out of the question I might have wasted MORE than 16 hours had I gone that route and failed once.

I mainly offered my perspective because I was disappointed in how the thing was managed and had been given such high expectations by so many about how wonderful it was. I still recommend it to people that see me on the bike and muse about trying it "one day" I think the best thing about it is you don't need a bike or expereince to sign up.

dhgeyer

11-03-2009, 08:24 AM

WW,

It sounds like the Canadians have a much better system than we do, and more modeled on the British and European way. I have no data on Canadian accident statistics, but I'd be willing to bet that they're lower. I'm particularly impressed that you actually got road experience and training, and by the length of time spent. Do you happen to remember the approximate instructor/student ratio?

primal

11-03-2009, 09:43 AM

Hey alazar, I thought I recognized this post over on Motorcycle Forums. ;)

Water Warrior 2

11-03-2009, 12:54 PM

We had 6 students in the class and 1 instructor. A very good ratio that allows plenty of time per student if extra coaching is needed. Also less chance of a stray duck while out on the street. We were taught how to ride in a group safely and properly which shows up frequently when another bike catches you on the road and slots in properly in a safe position. I try to always do the same when catching a rider ahead of me. I do not know if all course available are as long and as complete but any training is far better than none.
I have gone on a few group rides but much prefer riding with only 1 or 2 other bikes. I did go on with a group of 6 Vstrom riders and one Gal in particular was an absolute pleasure to follow. She had some real street smarts and never left you guessing about her next move.
When Lynda and I ride we have a great time primarily because we adhere to the same training and we also have radios to keep in touch. We have only had the radios for this season but there is a far smaller stress level when in traffic and we can comment or warn about a potential bad situation.

mrlmd1

11-03-2009, 09:36 PM

WW - who rides in front or do you switch off during the ride?

IceBreaker

11-03-2009, 11:05 PM

What do you all think of doing practice rides in a large cemetery? I think an empty cemetery or one with low traffic would be an excellent place to fine tune your riding skills before getting on the road with traffic. That is where I practiced after I passed my BRT(Basic Rider Training). Was a little apprehensive to get into traffic first. Once I gained my confidence in the "controlled" setting of a cemetery, I ventured into the roads. I asked one of my friends with a motorcycle license to ride the bike to the cemetery while I followed him in the car. You could even practice all the skills they test you on in the cemetery as well as straight line riding, curves, braking, stops etc, etc.... Best of luck next time and safe riding!

Water Warrior 2

11-04-2009, 12:07 AM

WW - who rides in front or do you switch off during the ride?

Lynda would rather follow so I try to get her ahead of me now and again. I think it is good for both of us to be used to leading/following.

Water Warrior 2

11-04-2009, 12:13 AM

Places to practice. A school parking lot after school. A church parking lot. If you are lucky, a new road not open to traffic yet. An abandoned air strip. An industrial area after hours.

Easy Rider

11-04-2009, 12:44 AM

What do you all think of doing practice rides in a large cemetery?

As long as you stay on the roads......and the management doesn't mind.
That is private property, however, and they might ask you to leave.

Then again, strange things go on in the cemetery's in Cook County; might not be such a good idea after all !! :biggrin:

Welcome, fellow Illini !! :tup:

burkbuilds

11-04-2009, 01:26 AM

What do you all think of doing practice rides in a large cemetery?

Watch out for those big tombstones! :retard:

dhgeyer

11-04-2009, 08:08 AM

A cemetery in Cook County, IL? I personally would be proud to ride among all those registered voters!

But, seriously, it does sound like a pretty good idea.