Carb problems following needle shim mod

[Goose]

Well, I did the needle shim mod today and it made my bike run like crap. It jerked and didn't want to rev smoothly. Not sure if the higher altitude made it run too rich after the mod or not, but that was all I could think of.

Because of the way it ran, I decided to switch the washer back to its normal position. I pulled the carb apart again and managed to put a small bend in the little spring that holds the needle in place. I re-bent the spring, reversed the mod, and put everything back together. It now runs OK, but is slow to return to idle and doesn't rev smoothly, but will rev every time I pull the throttle. If I hold it at 1/4 throttle it runs very rough and at one point stalled out. once I let it warm up it would return to its normal idle after a few seconds at higher RPMs.
These are not problems that were happening before the mod, so it seems I did something wrong. Could the fact that the needle spring isn't perfect affect this? (I already have one on order with the dealer, but if it might be the problem it would make me feel a little better.)

Some additional info:
It's an 06' with just under 700 miles on it

This current tank of gas is half used, 91 octane, and has been running a dose of seafoam engine/carb cleaner in it since I filled it.

I did not remove the carb all the way to do the mod. I loosened the manifolds and rotated it. I did remember to tighten the clamps back up.

The throttle is snapping back as it should

While idling, I sprayed carb cleaner on all the air hoses to check for a vacuum leak. I didn't find a leak.

I'm sure I forgot some sort of vital info, so please ask anything else that might be pertinent.

Thanks.

[Easy Rider]

This current tank of gas is half used, 91 octane, and has been running a dose of seafoam engine/carb cleaner in it since I filled it.


One thing at a time....ONLY ONE. Why the Seafoam in the gas??
You should NOT have started any mods if it wasn't running right in the first place.

And all the "performance" mods make it run richer.
If you live in a place where running richer is not good, you probably shouldn't have undertaken the project to start with.

And, lastly, you probably shouldn't "tinker" with something that you don't want to have out of service for a while.......because you learn the MOST when things DON'T go according to plan.

Hope the GZ isn't your only transportation.

[Goose]

This current tank of gas is half used, 91 octane, and has been running a dose of seafoam engine/carb cleaner in it since I filled it.


One thing at a time....ONLY ONE. Why the Seafoam in the gas??
You should NOT have started any mods if it wasn't running right in the first place.

And all the "performance" mods make it run richer.
If you live in a place where running richer is not good, you probably shouldn't have undertaken the project to start with.

And, lastly, you probably shouldn't "tinker" with something that you don't want to have out of service for a while.......because you learn the MOST when things DON'T go according to plan.

Hope the GZ isn't your only transportation.

Gee... thanks dad.

#1. The bike was running fine, however it sat with out being properly winterized and the seafoam was there to help flush any fuel that was there that didn't come out when I emptied the float bowl and any other grime that might have been in there. Because seafoam doesn't hurt the engine I didn't see any harm in adding it to a tank to flush things out.

#2. Because I didn't know if running richer would be a problem or not, I decided to give it a shot. This is not my first time pulling a carb apart, but is the first time I've modded one. I can see why running rich would be a problem now that I've tried it. I realize now that I probably shouldn't have done it, but since the only way I would have known that it would run TOO rich was to try it, and since I don't have a time machine, I'm stuck where I am. Thanks for the 20-20 hindsight though, it didn't help a bit.

#3. At no point did I ever imply that this was my only form of transportation. Look in my sig. I have another vehicle. Besides, I live in a small town and mostly get around by pedal power. I like my GZ though and would love to know what the problem is with it. I'm simply asking a question and hoping that someone will have an answer. I'm sorry if my posting on the board, my lack of experience with the GZ, or my desire to not leave things bone stock offends you.

I'm simply hoping to gain knowledge from this site and, eventually, have enough knowledge to share with others.

[New GZ250]

I totally agree with Goose! Easy Rider's comment was 100% worthless, plus it didn't address the problem!
:tdown:

[Dupo]

Noobs - 2
Easy - 0

:popcorn:

[Easy Rider]

I'm simply hoping to gain knowledge from this site and, eventually, have enough knowledge to share with others.

And what exactly makes you think that I am doing anything different than that ??

Nothing in my post was nasty or demeaning. Responding in that fashion will certainly encourage others to offer their thoughts, won't it ?? :skull:

[Easy Rider]

I totally agree with Goose! Easy Rider's comment was 100% worthless, plus it didn't address the problem!
:tdown:

And THIS comment helped with his problem.......HOW ??

[5th_bike]

Easy...

Dupo's just messin' with ya ! :poke2:

[ Apologies for not contributing to a meaningful solution for the posted problem(s) ]

[Easy Rider]

Easy...

Dupo's just messin' with ya ! :poke2:


I know that Dupo just "tollerates" my being here......because he TOLD me so.

If I continue to catch crap for innocent, well meaning comments he may not have to tollerate me much longer.

[Goose]

I'm simply hoping to gain knowledge from this site and, eventually, have enough knowledge to share with others.

And what exactly makes you think that I am doing anything different than that ??

Nothing in my post was nasty or demeaning. Responding in that fashion will certainly encourage others to offer their thoughts, won't it ?? :skull:


You had no knowledge to offer in your original response other than what was already obvious. As I said... 20-20 hindsight. Instead of suggesting WHAT I might have done wrong while performing or reversing the mod you simply pointed out that doing the mod in the first place wasn't a wise thing to do. However, because my bike doesn't run correctly, I'd already figured that part out, which is why I posted a question in the "troubleshooting" part of the forum.

Your post had the feel of trying to rub salt in an open wound, not trying to help. Please explain to me what part of your post was geared toward a discussion about what is actually wrong with my bike and NOT the fact that I shouldn't have done the mod in the first place.

Of course now this thread has deteriorated into nothing but a pissing match, which is likely to leave me with no help.

[mrlmd1]

Welcome to the forum. Get used to it.

Do not use 91 octane, the bike is designed for regular gas, 87 octane. That may be part of your problem. Empty out the gas and put it into your car and put in fresh regular gas.
If after you switch to regular gas it still runs rough, why don't you then replace the new spring for the carb? it may be a touch out of spec or hanging up on something in there.
If the bike was running fine before you did the mod, and runs like crap after you did and then undid it, it has to be something you did, right? Retrace your steps, look again for air leaks. The fresh gas and new spring may fix it.

[patrick_777]

I know that Dupo just "tollerates" my being here......because he TOLD me so.

If I continue to catch crap for innocent, well meaning comments he may not have to tollerate me much longer.


:cry: :cry: :poorbaby:

[Easy Rider]

Your post had the feel of trying to rub salt in an open wound, not trying to help. Please explain to me what part of your post was geared toward a discussion about what is actually wrong with my bike and NOT the fact that I shouldn't have done the mod in the first place.

Of course now this thread has deteriorated into nothing but a pissing match, which is likely to leave me with no help.

And just who do you think posted messages that caused it to "deteriorate" the most ??

You're right; I had nothing additional to offer.....partly since it appeared that you had already figured out what the most likely cause IS and were going about correcting that.

And here's a news flash for you: Sometimes we post messages to just "discuss" things. That kind of keeps the topic fresh while we wait for someone else to chime in......or in your case, we wait for your "fix" to be implemented to see the result.

Sometimes someone mentions a tiny little thing that triggers a memory from someone else........in a post that didn't directly address the original problem. Sometimes the OP fails to mention critical details and just chatting brings them out.

I am sorry that you took my post in a light that it was NOT intended. I am not sorrry, however, that I made the post.

I hope you get the bike fixed soon. I will darken your door no more.

[Easy Rider]

[quote="Easy Rider":2tbs10we]I know that Dupo just "tollerates" my being here......because he TOLD me so.

If I continue to catch crap for innocent, well meaning comments he may not have to tollerate me much longer.


:cry: :cry: :poorbaby:[/quote:2tbs10we]

Just stating a fact. :neener:

P.S. You and Dupo BOTH should be ashamed of yourselves for cluttering up this man's thread with messages that contribute NOTHING to helping him fix his problem. Shame, shame....... :facepalm:

[music man]

Thats it I am tired of all the belly aching around here, i am cleaning house........................ :biggun: :biggun: :biggun: :biggun: :biggun:

[Goose]

Do not use 91 octane, the bike is designed for regular gas, 87 octane. That may be part of your problem. Empty out the gas and put it into your car and put in fresh regular gas.
If after you switch to regular gas it still runs rough, why don't you then replace the new spring for the carb? it may be a touch out of spec or hanging up on something in there.

I'm not sure where I read it on here, but I'd swear I read that 91 octane was the way to go. I will dump the gas and refill with 87. I'm really glad to know that. Thanks mrlmd1. After doing a search under "octane" it looks like it may be the partial cause of my problem, especially since the higher altitude makes the octane rating equivalent higher. 85 is the standard low octane here, not 87 like in Ohio where I grew up. In addition, I read that some people feel that Seafoam will raise the octane of the gas a little more. Not sure if this is true, but It will be long gone with the new tank of gas.
Since the spring is on the way I'll give it a go when it gets here. I played with things a little more today and then fired it up. It was rough for about 30 seconds or so and then was actually running great for a little bit. I took it for a spin around the block and it started to falter again. I limped it home and it stalled out in the driveway. I pulled the carb cap off and found that the needle had been thrown up and the plastic spring holder and the spring where removed from the needle and laying beside it in the carb. It makes me think that the slight imperfection in the spring is allowing the plastic needle holder to catch on the carb cap and get flung out of place. I don't think the spring actually got ordered until this morning, and with the holiday on Monday, it probably won't be until the end of next week until I give it a go again, but I'd love to hear if there are any more thoughts on where the problem might be.


If the bike was running fine before you did the mod, and runs like crap after you did and then undid it, it has to be something you did, right? Retrace your steps, look again for air leaks.

I keep going over everything I did and just can't come up with anything other than the spring. I spent some time with the blow-up of the carb to make sure I didn't accidently leave a piece out, buy I think I'm good there. I'll give another check for air leaks once I get the fuel replaced and the new spring in. Thanks.

[Dupo]

[quote="patrick_777":3aung89o][quote="Easy Rider":3aung89o]I know that Dupo just "tollerates" my being here......because he TOLD me so.

If I continue to catch crap for innocent, well meaning comments he may not have to tollerate me much longer.


:cry: :cry: :poorbaby:[/quote:3aung89o]

Just stating a fact. :neener:

P.S. You and Dupo BOTH should be ashamed of yourselves for cluttering up this man's thread with messages that contribute NOTHING to helping him fix his problem. Shame, shame....... :facepalm:[/quote:3aung89o]

Yea Patrick, you prick.

[patrick_777]

Yea Patrick, you prick.

We can smell our own, huh. And you should keep that kind of language at bay...this is a family forum.

[Dupo]

Oh thats right, i forgot. Dam.

[Water Warrior 2]

Dupo is treating us to donuts for that oops.

[delgado3030]

http://www.roflcat.com/images/cats/270913946_efa38ec3d8.jpg

[Red_bike]

Goose, try not to loose any sleep over it. Think of it as a time to clean the GZ and give it a good shine so once it fixed, you will have it ready to ride.

Duck

[Goose]

Goose, try not to loose any sleep over it. Think of it as a time to clean the GZ and give it a good shine so once it fixed, you will have it ready to ride.

Duck

I haven't been loosing sleep over it (thankfully) but unfortunately it'll be pretty pointless to shine her up until my wife and I move next week. The GZ lives outside and is covered but still seems to attract dust and grime like a magnet. Next week I'll have a garage again, so I'll give her a good cleaning then. :rawk:

[Jere]

Sorry for resurrecting an older (and obviously contentious) thread, but the service manual which I downloaded from this site clearly says "use unleaded gasoline that is graded 91 octane or higher."

My bike isn't running well so I'm trying to find answers. I guess I don't understand the suggestions that we should be using regular gas when the service manual basically says to use premium.

[Sarris]

First, I would suggest replacing the bent carb spring with a new one. Be sure that you have correctly measured the ratio for your in tank carb cleaner and have not put too much in. Both or either will make your GZ run like shit.

Second, there have been changes in the MON/RON octane numbers over the years complicated by a different EU and Canadian numbers. The manual on site is old and reflects incorrect old octane numbers.

Here in the good ol' USA use 87 octane regular in your GZ. Using high octane in a GZ not only wastes money, but can result in sluggish performane, lower gas mileage, fouled plugs, or worse.

:)

[Water Warrior 2]

Canadian bikes are 87 octane rated.

[alantf]

Canadian bikes are 87 octane rated.

Why the hell can't they standardise octane rating throughout the world? My European GZ is the same spec as the Canadian (according to the handbook), but over here it's either 95 or 98 octane.

Just in passing :- The owner's handbook for my Citroen C3 car recommends using 98 octane, so I used this when I first bought the car. After a couple of years I bought a "Haynes" workshop manual. This said to ignore it, & use 95 octane, so for the last 4 years I've been using the cheaper 95 octane, & I've not noticed ANY problems whatsoever.

[johnd]

I am still not sure of the best fuel for the GZ. My bike is a 2000. It came with no owners manual so I downloaded the manual from the forum. At my age I may be slipping a bit but I could have sworn it called for 91 octane for the US model and 87 for Canadien and gave the respective methods for determining the octane rating. I read it again this morning and it says 87, so I guess I did make a mistake. In the meantime I bought an owners manual on ebay for a 2008 GZ and it definitely says 91 octane for the US, and 87 for Canada models. And it gives a rating or formula for determining the octane.

So folks, which is best suited for the GZ? 91 or 87?

Thanks

[Sarris]

87. Eighty Seven Octane Regular.

All US spec GZ's run on USA 87 Octane Regular. Page 2-2, paragraph #1 of my newly purchased owners manual says " Your new vehicle requires regular unleaded gasoline with a minimum octane rating of 87 ((R+M)/2 method)..........

The formula in the US is the (Research Octane Number + Motor Octane Number) /2. Both are different measurement methods for the same octane percentage with one of the two (don't remember which) is significantly higher than the other. The EU, the UK, & SE Asia have different measurement standards as well. It should be standardized, for sure.

My new manual is a replacement from Ron Ayers. Suzuki Genuine Parts #99011-13F59-03A

:)

[Jere]

Cool. I get it now. The service manual (which happens to be for the same year as my bike) does clearly say "Use only unleaded gasoline of at least 87 pump octane ((R+M)/2 method) or 91 octane or higher rated by the Research Method" for Canada (country code E-28.)

Now, it says "or higher." Why would it say that if premium was not good for it?

[Sarris]

91 octane under the RON must be regular. MON regular octane must be must be 83. 91+83=174/2=87 Average Octane in the US

Some countries (like Canada) use just the RON measurement. All the same stuff measured with a different scale.

Also, what thay are saying is don't use less than "91 RON octane regular", as 60 octane donkey piss is available in some asian subcontinent areas.

Confusing, eh??

:)

[Easy Rider]

Now, it says "or higher." Why would it say that if premium was not good for it?

So.....who/where does it say that premium is "not good for it" ???

Some specific bikes don't run quite as good with it; a scant few seem to run better......but none will be harmed.

It is a waste of money but not dangerous.

[alantf]

Now, it says "or higher." Why would it say that if premium was not good for it?



I seem to recall an answer to this a few months back (but I can't remember which post) when someone (again, I can't remember who) explained that the higher octane fuel exploded with a sudden bang (due to some chemical or other) while the lower octane gave a "slower" burn, which the gz engine appreciated. :roll:

[Easy Rider]

I seem to recall an answer to this a few months back (but I can't remember which post) when someone (again, I can't remember who) explained that the higher octane fuel exploded with a sudden bang (due to some chemical or other) while the lower octane gave a "slower" burn, which the gz engine appreciated. :roll:

Good.......kind of. O_o

It's exactly backwards. That's why you need the higher octane in a HIGH compression engine.......which the GZ is NOT !! :)

[Sarris]

Here is a good article on octane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Knock_Index

:)

[Water Warrior 2]

Now, it says "or higher." Why would it say that if premium was not good for it?



I seem to recall an answer to this a few months back (but I can't remember which post) when someone (again, I can't remember who) explained that the higher octane fuel exploded with a sudden bang (due to some chemical or other) while the lower octane gave a "slower" burn, which the gz engine appreciated. :roll:
Higher octane gas has a fast controlled burn for high compression engines. The chemical /additive package controls the burn rate.

[Jere]

Now, it says "or higher." Why would it say that if premium was not good for it?

So.....who/where does it say that premium is "not good for it" ???

Some specific bikes don't run quite as good with it; a scant few seem to run better......but none will be harmed.

It is a waste of money but not dangerous.

I don't believe anyone's used those exact words, but earlier in this thread mrlmd1 explicitly said "do not use premium gas" and even suggested that someone should empty the gas out and put regular in.

[Easy Rider]

but earlier in this thread mrlmd1 explicitly said "do not use premium gas"

and even suggested that someone should empty the gas out and put regular in.

Yes, it is generally good advice to NOT use premium gas in an engine that doesn't need it.

And, it is generally good advice to drain the tank when you suspect you are having a fuel problem.

Try not to read things in the messages that are not there !! :biggrin:

[Jere]

I'll follow your advice. It's just natural for me to assume when someone says not to do something it's because it's bad.

I still don't understand why using premium gas is not recommended though. Anyway, doesn't really matter I guess. I appreciate the advice.

[Sarris]

It's not recommended because your GZ has low compression and does not require the octane to slow combustion.

This is why the use of high octane fuel in the GZ may result in slightly lower performance and slightly lower mpg.

High compression engines need octane to slightly retard combustion so it doesn't spontaneously ignite (ping) during the compression stroke under load.

Read the article I sighted in the above post.

:)

[Jere]

Thanks! good explanation.