two finger technique

Does anybody use just two fingers to operate the clutch and/or brake, and if so, in what situations?

Thanks,

Keith

[thepaintbox]

I tend to use three (all but the index) for each, and cover them almost always. It feels really weird to not have it covered.

Just two might have trouble being firm on the front brake or have trouble controlling the clutch position in traffic, imo.

[Water Warrior 2]

Some riders will tell you to do "this or that" for safety and they are speaking with the best of intensions. Also they are probably right. I prefer to do what is most comfy for me.

[Easy Rider]

Does anybody use just two fingers to operate the clutch and/or brake, and if so, in what situations?


No. Never.
Just a little slip and you are down to one.......or NONE!

Does anybody use just two fingers to operate the clutch and/or brake, and if so, in what situations?


No. Never.
Just a little slip and you are down to one.......or NONE!

That's exactly what I was thinking, but the issue came up the other day (I won't bore you with the details), so I thought I'd put it out to this group and see what people had to say.

While I'm at it, can I ask kind of a newb question? When you engage the clutch, do you pull it in all the way (so the lever is touching the handlebar), or just what is necessary to shift? As I get more riding experience, I'm noticing subtleties in both my skill and the bike and I'm developing new questions.

Keith

[dannylightning]

Does anybody use just two fingers to operate the clutch and/or brake, and if so, in what situations?


No. Never.
Just a little slip and you are down to one.......or NONE!

That's exactly what I was thinking, but the issue came up the other day (I won't bore you with the details), so I thought I'd put it out to this group and see what people had to say.

While I'm at it, can I ask kind of a newb question? When you engage the clutch, do you pull it in all the way (so the lever is touching the handlebar), or just what is necessary to shift? As I get more riding experience, I'm noticing subtleties in both my skill and the bike and I'm developing new questions.

Keith

i use all my fingers on the clutch so i can make sure it is pulled in all the way. and only 2 on the break

[Easy Rider]

While I'm at it, can I ask kind of a newb question? When you engage the clutch, do you pull it in all the way (so the lever is touching the handlebar), or just what is necessary to shift?

Best to pull it ALL the way. It is VERY hard to gauge exactly how much is needed and too much is a LOT better than too little. Muscle memory is important and developing that requires doing it exactly the same way every time.

Or to put it another way.........don't try to get too "cute"; there really is nothing to be gained. :biggrin:

[alantf]

Best to pull it ALL the way. It is VERY hard to gauge exactly how much is needed

I think that this answer is probably good advice for a new rider, but I also think that experience counts for a great deal. I find that a light touch on the gear pedal, while pulling in the clutch, lets me feel when the bike is ready & comfortable to slip into the next gear. Most times this is before the clutch lever touches the grip. I suppose this is at the point that the clutch disengages, which is slightly before the lever reaches the grip.

On the point of "two fingers", I never really thought about it, so today I took special notice, and yes, I realised that I too used two fingers, third & fourth, on both hands to operate the controls.

[Easy Rider]

I realised that I too used two fingers, third & fourth, on both hands to operate the controls.

I find that somewhat facinating; maybe I should make it a point to see exactly what I do, rather than what I THINK I do.

So, where do the second and fifth fingers go? Behind the lever (or still on the grip) would seem to be a bit awkward ??

[alantf]

So, where do the second and fifth fingers go? Behind the lever (or still on the grip) would seem to be a bit awkward ??

The second finger (that is, the first finger after the thumb) seems to stick straight out, & my little finger (pinkie?) seems too short to do anything anyhow. Like I said, I'd never realised what I did, until I took special note.

[Easy Rider]

& my little finger (pinkie?) seems too short to do anything anyhow.

Seems to me like a proper Englishman would have his pinkie raised......... :biggrin: :crackup

[Water Warrior 2]

& my little finger (pinkie?) seems too short to do anything anyhow.

Seems to me like a proper Englishman would have his pinkie raised......... :biggrin: :crackup

Only if SHE is drinking tea I would imagine.

[alantf]

Only if SHE is drinking tea I would imagine.

You beat me to the punch! :2tup:

[Water Warrior 2]

Only if SHE is drinking tea I would imagine.

You beat me to the punch! :2tup:

Uh Uh, beat you to the tea. Lame response but I had to do it. :) :)

[Sarris]

With my two finger technique, you have to ride with no hands.

:fu: :facepalm: :fu:
The Two Finger Technique

Seriously, use ALL your fingers and pull it all the way to the bar. You'll have to do this on most larger bikes anyway, so you may as well be accustomed to it.

:)

[Easy Rider]

With my two finger technique, you have to ride with no hands.


Sure, no problem. I found the proper size O-ring for my Kardasian (whatever) grips yesterday so my "cruise control" is working and I'm ready to go with whatever hand signals are needed !!! :neener:

P.S. Checked it out today and I use 3-1/2 fingers on both sides; the pinky is on there but it ain't doin' much. :)

[alanmcorcoran]

A number of people have commented on pulling the clutch all the way in, and Sarris mentioned this is even more necessary on bigger bikes.

On my GZ it's also important to make sure you are letting the clutch all the way OUT too. I haven't been riding it much lately but when I took it out the other day, I found I was not letting the clutch all the way out and losing power and acceleration (probably not helping the transmission much either.) I suspect it is because my other bike has less travel in the clutch, but I'm not sure why I was doing this. Might also be related to gauntlet gloves vs the thinner ones...

The bike will still ride somewhat normally with the clutch only partially released, but with less torque.

The "two-finger" business is a form of "covering." (Typically the brakes.) There is all sorts of debate of covering vs non covering that I don't really want to get into, (I "cover" approaching intersections and in parking lots.) I don't think it is ever recommended as the standard way to use the levers.

EDIT: I noticed yesterday that I "cover" with all four fingers. I have pretty chunky levers and it's best not to pussyfoot them - two fingers really wouldn't make any sense for me. When I'm on the freeway, I keep my fingers around the grips unless I'm splitting lanes at slow speed.

[adrianinflorida]

I find that 90% of the time I 'cover' the brake and clutch with at least a couple fingers, if not all of them, while riding. When I operate the clutch and brake, though, I use all fingers, it's just more comfortable to me, to each his own.

[BusyWeb]

I find that 90% of the time I 'cover' the brake and clutch with at least a couple fingers, if not all of them, while riding. When I operate the clutch and brake, though, I use all fingers, it's just more comfortable to me, to each his own.

Hi, there.
Here is my experience about covering fingers....
I used to do same way like what you are doing >> 'cover' the brake and clutch with at least a couple fingers.
But now (I have not been riding almost over 20 years, ha ha ha), after MSF class, I try not to.
Whenever I recognize that I cover; especially on the clutch lever; with fingers,
I remove it intentionally if I'm not riding on the busy city commuting which requires frequent gear shifting.
The reason is that when riders met a Panic Situation,
riders tend to squeeze the clutch or brake lever without thinking (self-defense system on the brain).
And many cases with that makes bike down especially when turning or bike was leaned.
I also had similar situations and felt it's very dangerous.... (I might need better riding technique.. ha ha ha),
and bike losses power suddenly when clutch is out of the engin train when turning or riding down, and I had hard moments to control bike. >>> causes worse situations.
That's my experience for the covering fingers ...

And one thought about Two Finger Method.
I'm currently having just little bit shorter Clutch Lever. (don't ask me why ... ha ha ha, if you ask, I will answer why I have shorter clutch lever)
My clutch lever is just right size for my palm size; it just covers all my 4 fingers.
So, most time I'm using my 2-3 fingers without my intention, and felt very comfty.
And my last two fingers are very happy with it >> I can put on/off my all fingers very easily and faster than before....
It gives less fatigue on my left hands..... and gave me little better control on clutch >> I don't know why???
There might be some reasons(Physics) here >>> shorter >>> less movement requires on clutch actions
>> shorter >> requires just little more hand gripping power >>> but reduces time to find friction zone >>> shorter clutch engage time >>> etc...
Ha ha ha, I don't want to change my shorter clutch lever with Longer until I found some reason.

However, I like to use all my 4 fingers on the bike levers >> makes me more confidence on....

[primal]

I think the only time you should use two fingers is if your bike is suited for it. For instance, its a lot easier to use two fingers on a sport bike with dual front brakes than it is a big cruiser with a single disk in the front. Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch which, despite the implications of the title, has a LOT of good information about riding on the street, recommends using two/three fingers for the clutch and brake. If your clutch is light enough and your brakes powerful enough (so you don't need to put that much effort into braking) then using two/three fingers is fine.

Use two fingers, the index and middle fingers, on the front brake lever. The old days of fading brakes pinching your fingers against the bar are long gone, and a wholehand grab is not only too much pressure for today's low-effort systems, but it also reduces your control of the throttle when blipping (revving) the engine on downshifts.

Now, granted, the GZ's brake system probably isn't considered "low-effort," so you probably wouldn't want to use this technique on this bike.

[primal]

While I'm at it, can I ask kind of a newb question? When you engage the clutch, do you pull it in all the way (so the lever is touching the handlebar), or just what is necessary to shift?

Best to pull it ALL the way. It is VERY hard to gauge exactly how much is needed and too much is a LOT better than too little. Muscle memory is important and developing that requires doing it exactly the same way every time.

Or to put it another way.........don't try to get too "cute"; there really is nothing to be gained. :biggrin:

If you know where the friction zone is (via muscle memory) then you don't need to pull all the way in.

[New GZ250]

Does anybody use just two fingers to operate the clutch and/or brake, and if so, in what situations?

Thanks,

Keith

Nope.
:neener:

[Easy Rider]

If you know where the friction zone is (via muscle memory) then you don't need to pull all the way in.

There are three things wrong with that statement:

1) Like I said before, what can you possbily gain by pulling the clutch in only part way ??
If you think you MUST do something "different", then practice shifting without the clutch at all.

2) Maybe more importantly, the action of finding the friction zone while engaging the clutch is a different action than trying to find it while dis-engaging it. Muscle "memory" is only obtained after a LOT of repetitions of exactly the same operation; those two are not the same.

3) What kind of feedback do you think you will get to allow you to FIND a "friction zone" while dis-engaging ??? When the clutch starts to slip ???

I'm sorry to disagree but I find the whole concept ridiculous.

[Water Warrior 2]

Pulling the clutch in part way may be acceptable when shifting to just unload the gears but shifting into gear from neutral or into neutral from a gear is a full pull to get as much clutch release as possible. Or just go totally clutchless except for stops and starts but it does take practice and concentration to get it right.

[primal]

1) Like I said before, what can you possbily gain by pulling the clutch in only part way ??
If you think you MUST do something "different", then practice shifting without the clutch at all.

Quicker and smoother shifting. Clutchless shifting may be acceptable with going up the gearbox, but clutchless downshifts can be dangerous, evidenced by the fact that even pros (without the electronic doodads) will clutch on downshifts.

If you've got a bike whose friction zone is in the first 1/3 of the clutch's range of motion, there's no benefit at all to pulling it all the way in when trying to shift smoothly.

[Easy Rider]

but clutchless downshifts can be dangerous,

Trying to estimate where the release point is by pulling the lever in only part way can be dangerous to the transmission TOO. :skull:

To each his own, I guess. What you propose would take a LOT of practice to get it right and would, I think, be more prone to an occasional "oops" if your concentration isn't perfect.

Then......what do you do after the clutch cable is re-adjusted OR you climb on another bike with a different release point?

I quit; that's all I got. :cool:

[Sarris]

IMHO, if your "friction zone" is in the last 1/3, you need a clutch adjustment. I believe the manual on page 50 says 15MM +/- off the grip should start engagement.

Also, FYI, by the time you feel the friction, you are already heating up (if not burning) the clutch. Why not just operate the clutch as intended? Are you going to fuck up the clutch just 'cause you want to be lazy??

Your partial engagement argument is pure bullshit.

:whistle: :cry: O_o

[Easy Rider]

Your partial engagement argument is pure bullshit.

Don't sugar coat it, Sarris, tell us what you REALLY think!! :shocked:

(Like that has EVER been a problem!!) :biggrin:

[Water Warrior 2]

I have an idea. Let's all agree to politely disagree. I think this is a case of "You ride yours and I'll ride mine". Go with whatever works for you.

[bonehead]

Finally! A referee.

[Easy Rider]

Finally! A referee.

We take turns......and it seems QUITE out of character at times !! :roll: :biggrin:

[Sarris]

No, your technique is incorrect. At the MSF class they teach you to pull the lever to the GRIP. The manufacturer says 15 mm off the GRIP.

What don't you get? It's your bike, fuck it up all you want, that's your right.

But, don't sing that shit as gospel here for the newbies to pick up. Wrong technique is wrong technique.

So.... I politely disagree.

:biggun:

[primal]

Well Sarris, disagree all you want, but you'd be hard pressed to prove that I'm the only rider out there who finds that pulling the clutch in all the way is necessary for proper shifting. Unfortunately I'd be violating forum rules by showing you a dozen threads on other forums that backup what I said.

It is funny that you got so worked up over this, though...

[Sarris]

Yeah, a dozen dumb asses is still a dozen dumb asses.

And...... I'm not worked up. Just politely disagreeing.

:)

[primal]

If that was you politely disagreeing, I'd hate to see you pissed...

[Easy Rider]

you'd be hard pressed to prove that I'm the only rider out there who finds that pulling the clutch in all the way is necessary for proper shifting.

What ?? You might want to proof read a bit! Kinda funny that you contradicted your own point though.

Unfortunately I'd be violating forum rules by showing you a dozen threads on other forums that backup what I said.

What rule would that be? I don't remember seeing any such thing. It is YOU who made the original contention; it is on YOU to back it up.


Oh, and let's not be finding quotes from road track racers or stunters......it is assumed that we are talking about techniques useful to the general public.
A post on an Internet forum is, after all, the best reference one can find.... :roll:

[primal]

Are there not rules against posting links to other forums?

[Easy Rider]

Are there not rules against posting links to other forums?

Are there?
You keep making assertions with nothing (so far) to back them up.

You don't have to post links; post some quotes from someone who has slightly more qualifications than "self appointed expert".

And to quote a recognized expert on dumb asses:
"Yeah, a dozen dumb asses is still [just] a dozen dumb asses." :shocked: :biggrin:

[primal]

Are there not rules against posting links to other forums?

Are there?
You keep making assertions with nothing (so far) to back them up.

Ah, well there seems to be a lot of that going on in this thread, huh? Like your assertion that it is difficult to tell when the clutch is disengaged. I can't remember what it was like on the GZ, but I can tell you for a fact that it was extremely easy to tell when the clutch was disengaged on my KZ550. Perhaps thats because inline-4s have a ton of engine braking, I don't know. But I can tell you that between the loss of engine braking and the freely revving engine while blipping the throttle to match revs (on downshifts) makes it very evident when the clutch is disengaged.

Besides, even if the clutch IS slightly engaged, slipping for a tenth of a second is hardly going to cause any clutch damage. Certainly no more than riding the clutch in low speed maneuvers.

[Easy Rider]

But I can tell you that between the loss of engine braking and the freely revving engine while blipping the throttle to match revs (on downshifts) makes it very evident when the clutch is disengaged.

Besides, even if the clutch IS slightly engaged, slipping for a tenth of a second is hardly going to cause any clutch damage. Certainly no more than riding the clutch in low speed maneuvers.

Just stop, please. You are making yourself look (more) foolish.
I quit.

[primal]

Yea, well, until you put forth some rebuttals you're just gonna be viewed as the guy who thinks he knows so much that he obviously don't have to explain himself. But, I suppose you don't care. And neither do I.

[diffluere]

P.S. Checked it out today and I use 3-1/2 fingers on both sides; the pinky is on there but it ain't doin' much. :)

Same here. My pinky is pretty short (i'm a small person and have small hands anyway.) My pinky just kind hangs out while the rest of the fingers do the work.

[dhgeyer]

Well, I've just got to get my two cents in of course.... But where to even begin? Let's start here: a motorcycle can be shifted without the clutch at all, and if you can increase/decrease the throttle just right while you're doing it, it can even be a smooth shift that won't destroy the transmission. Racers to this routinely. When my daughter was riding a Ninja 250, she once had the clutch cable break while she was at the library, about 3 miles from here. I called for a tow, and waited for several hours. Finally I had her drive me to the library, got on it, and rode it home. Put it in first and started it in motion (yes, hard on the starter). After that it was clutchless shifts home, rolling through stop signs slowly in first so that I wouldn't have to burden the starter again. I can't claim that I got all the shifts perfect, but it wasn't bad, and I got home and the bike needed no repairs other than replacing the clutch cable. I wouldn't want to ride across Montana that way, but it's good to know that you can do it if home/help isn't too far away.

I have read, and I don't remember where, that the best, smoothest way to shift is fairly close to clutchless shifting. Motorcycles have constant mesh transmissions, which are simpler and different than car/truck transmissions. They actually shift a little more smoothly with a little tension from the engine. The smoothest and quickest shifts I know how to do go as follows:

1. Upshifting: preload the shift lever with upward pressure, but not enough to cause a clutchless shift. Then, quickly and smoothly, squeeze the clutch just a little (you have to develop a feel for just how much) and ease off the throttle just a little to match the engine speed to the new ratio. That doesn't have to be exact. Then (and we're talking a total time of about half a second for the whole maneuver) release the clutch quickly.

2. Downshift: Same, except preload the shifter down instead of up, and increase the throttle a tad instead of easing off. Otherwise, same drill.

This is not a technique for beginners. You don't want to try it until you are quite at ease with the normal shifting technique. They don't teach it in the MSF course, or in owner's manuals, for exactly that reason. I can tell you, though, that it does work, and, when mastered gives the smoothest, quickest, and most pleasant shifts possible, with the least wear on the clutch and transmission. I say that last because it involves very little slip on the clutch at all, and you don't get the usual "clunk" or "clack" you usually get when shifting: it's totally silent and smooth if done right.

I don't especially advocate anyone do this. It's an advanced technique, and during the time it takes to learn it there will be some rough shifts, and some wear and tear on things. I was motivated to learn it because I want to do things on a motorcycle in the most competent way possible - that's just part of the fun for me. Once mastered this way of shifting takes less time and effort, is smoother, and easier on the bike, and it makes me feel good, more at one with the machine.

I listen to other riders shift now. I can tell who's been riding a long time (and trying to improve their technique) and who hasn't, by how long it takes them to shift. With a really skilled rider, all you hear is a fairly sudden drop or increase in engine speed. I know from listening that I am not the only one shifting in this way - far from it.

I know that others here will strongly disagree with all of this, and I'm not going to argue about it. It's a point of view that hadn't been expressed, at least in this thread, and I thought it should be, just so that everyone would know that this lore does exist and some people believe it.

[bonehead]

I remember riding my 900 honda back in the 80's and hardly ever releasing the throttle while shifting. Of course back then it was all about speed and quickness.(10 foot tall and bulletproof)

[Easy Rider]

Well, I've just got to get my two cents in of course.... But where to even begin?

A good post.

IMHO, you might want to begin by trying to be a little more concise.
I don't know about anybody else but my interest begins to wane after about the second paragraph. :)

[dhgeyer]

Wordy? Verbose? Long winded? ME??????!!!!!!! Nah! Gee, no one has ever accused me of that before.......NOT. Maybe you should save my posts for when you're having trouble sleeping.

[bonehead]

Wordy? Verbose? Long winded? ME??????!!!!!!! Nah! Gee, no one has ever accused me of that before.......NOT. Maybe you should save my posts for when you're having trouble sleeping.
Good one!