Hey alancorcoran, Look here

[music man]

I know, I know - this is a GZ site and the content should be mainly about the GZ. The only reason I mention it is that I think a lot of people on here ARE planning on going bigger once they get some experience on the GZ and I was lucky to be able to "test drive" the bike I bought before I bought it. Not sure how it is in the rest of the country, but it seemed like all I coud do untl I found the rental place was to read, look and sit. No riding!

Its not that you can't or shouldn't talk about other bikes besides the GZ on this site, as a matter of fact I think I was one of the first ones to encourage you to do just that, to tell us about your experiences on your new bike. But not put us down in the process, because when you say stuff like, "I don't know about you but I feel silly riding the GZ" and I can't take the GZ seriously, and its just a novelty bike" that is offensive to me, because I STILL ride a GZ, so you are just like the "other" bikers out there that think if you aren't riding a monster you and your bike are a silly little joke, that you are not a serious motorcycle rider, regardless of what you say to the contrary.

But I guarantee you that I am just as serious (or more) of a motorcycle rider as you are, Like the Wise scholar Sarris once said :lol: "it ain't what you ride, it is the ride" that counts. And most people on here ARE going to go bigger (myself included), but that does not mean that YOU have to humiliate them into doing so. And you were the one that brought up having to be SECURE to ride a GZ, so you kind of brought the whole insecurity thing on yourself.

And I understand why you got a bigger bike (I personally think you are slightly off your hinges for riding any bike in that crazy ass Traffic and on those high speed roads you have, much less a GZ) and I am not putting you down for getting one. I want one myself, (a bigger bike) but you will not hear me on here GZ bashing when I do. It is a small bike (the GZ) and has its limitations, but you won't find a better 250 cruiser out there. That is all I was trying to say to begin with, yea I am glad you got a new bike, and I WANT to here about how it rides, and all that, but you could leave out "the GZ is not a real motorcycle, novelty" bullshit, because then you are basically spitting in the face of anyone on here that DOES take the GZ seriously (such as myself) regardless if they do or ever will own a bigger motorcycle.

I moved this here, I know its not actually politics or religion but I didn't really see anywhere else it would fit. See I am also trying to follow Patricks rules of Etiquette :bow: .

[Easy Rider]

I moved this here, I know its not actually politics or religion but I didn't really see anywhere else it would fit. See I am also trying to follow Patricks rules of Etiquette :bow: .

Hey! What the hell. If you guys keep this up Patrick won't have anything left to bitch about..........well except for ME, that is !! :shocked: :biggrin:

And once again, you did a MUCH better job of explaining what I was trying to say. Thanks. :tup:

[patrick_777]

I'm going to rename this forum to something other than Politics & Religion. Maybe just "Hot Topics"...or "Flame War IV - Armageddon on Two Wheels"

As it is, I don't have much to say on this particular topic.

:popcorn:

[alanmcorcoran]

But not put us down in the process, because when you say stuff like, "I don't know about you but I feel silly riding the GZ" and I can't take the GZ seriously, and its just a novelty bike" that is offensive to me, because I STILL ride a GZ, so you are just like the "other" bikers out there that think if you aren't riding a monster you and your bike are a silly little joke, that you are not a serious motorcycle rider, regardless of what you say to the contrary.

Okay, I got it. I may have gone a little overboard that day and I apologize.

Bear in mind, I STILL RIDE THE GZ. Five days a week. More often than I ride the Strat (but less miles.) I'm not going to make any more comparative observations, but if I was truly a Big Bike Elitist, I would have sold the GZ and would ride the Strat to work everyday. I also spent well over a month pursuing a fix for my stalling problem, something I would not have bothered with if I didn't think it was worth riding it.

(I will say this: I am so looking forward to the day you post what your new bike is.)

[music man]

I'm not going to make any more comparative observations, but if I was truly a Big Bike Elitist, I would have sold the GZ and would ride the Strat to work everyday.

(I will say this: I am so looking forward to the day you post what your new bike is.)


Trust me, you are probably not far from selling it with the attitude you have towards riding it, and AGAIN, i never said don't make any comparisions between the two bikes, and never talk about your new bike, just don't talk down to the people who still chose to ride the GZ.


And why are you looking forward to the day i post what my new bike is?

[mr. softie]

I think the little GZ is a better bike in one big way than most bigger bikes. It is just plain fun to ride.

[music man]

I think the little GZ is a better bike in one big way than most bigger bikes. It is just plain fun to ride.


Not according to Alan.

[alanmcorcoran]

And why are you looking forward to the day i post what my new bike is?

Something new to talk about.

[patrick_777]

I think the little GZ is a better bike in one big way than most bigger bikes. It is just plain fun to ride.

I agree with this to a point. The power of a bigger bike is addictive, but the nimbleness and flickability of the GZ and other small-displacement bikes is a major plus to the fun factor. The GZ is a perfect beginner's bike, and an even better bike for someone with a lot of experience with big bikes but really knows (and understands) what makes a motorcycle REALLY fun to ride.

If it only had a 350cc engine, it'd be GREAT. :neener: :poke2:

[patrick_777]

And why are you looking forward to the day i post what my new bike is?

To be honest, I really am too.

[alanmcorcoran]

I think this is another one of those religious arguments, like helmet vs. no helmet, ATGATT vs NEATGATT, Harley vs metric, where there are strong feelings on either side and not much point of discussion because neither side is going to budge. I've mentioned several times why I felt the GZ was not enough motorcycle for me and even explained that it may be related to the infrastructure, topography and weather where I live. I didn't mean to disparage everyone that is riding it, but I admitted I might have been in a pissier than normal mood when I posted about it being an eccentric novelty. Sorry again.

No matter how much one loves their GZ, for me it is not fun to ride in the hills, it is too slow for the highway, it is too light for windy and is also too light for the hacked up concrete that passes for freeways. My wife and I were carless for a day and a half as the Suburban needed brakes and I had lent my daughter's '95 Camry (200K) to a friend whose car was also in the shop. Had to ride two up down about 12 miles of freeway to collect the SUV today. Guess which bike I took?
The GZ is, however, a very adequate bike for going to work and flatish backcountry roads with 50 mph speed limits. It really shines in the areas of:

1) Gas mileage
2) Initial cost
3) Ongoing cost, especially insurance
4) As a bike to learn on
5) As a bike to work on
6) Maneuvering in tight spaces, such as parking lots, garages, and anywhere it must go backwards and/or uphill.

I've learned to ride at this point, and with the exception of the insurance and the occasional tight spaces, the rest are not priorities for me at this stage. I wanted to learn how to ride to live out the fantasy of the open road with the wind in my hair and, well, if the opportunity presented itself, kill victims infected with the T virus. I don't think the Strat is necessarily the perfect bike for that, but it was a lot closer and was somewhat of a bargain. I think the Resident Evil chick had a BMW and I suspect there will be one in my future. I hear it has a 7.5 gallon gas tank!

[mr. softie]

I think the little GZ is a better bike in one big way than most bigger bikes. It is just plain fun to ride.
Thank you Alan for clarifying your views on the GZ. You have made good observations. Not everyone is going to be able to enjoy the GZ equally for lots of the reasons you state.

Small bikes in general are dissed usually by people who don't know any better. To lot of riders my 672cc 65hp 560lb Silverwing is uselessly tiny, not being at least 1000cc, 100hp, and 900lb. Our days of excess, may we glory in them while we can!

For another perspective check this cool video out, a man and his 250 ninja...
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxoVEMTXp8#GU5U2spHI_4

[patrick_777]

That guy's a prominent poster on ninja250.org. The founder of that site lives in Tulsa and I've ridden with him several times.

[Moedad]

For another perspective check this cool video out, a man and his 250 ninja...
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxoVEMTXp8#GU5U2spHI_4

Awesome adventure! :rawk:

[alanmcorcoran]

Small bikes in general are dissed usually by people who don't know any better. To lot of riders my 672cc 65hp 560lb Silverwing is uselessly tiny, not being at least 1000cc, 100hp, and 900lb. Our days of excess, may we glory in them while we can!

Thanks for not hitting me softie! I think probably the one bike style I never really considered was the sportbike. I haven't ridden one, but I was treated to an endless stream of 75 foot wheelies from sport riders that were razzing us newbs when we were taking the MSF in the car auction parking lot. I sort of figured sport bikes require a higher level of skill, are quicker, and, possibly, deadly, if you don't know what you are doing. Plus, I'd done the crouch over style of riding on my road bicycle and I thought I'd go lawn chair style in my dotage. My brother had a crazy fast Kawasaki - this was before I got a bike - and he gave it up after a few near death experiences.

One thing you guys have over me is the ability to tell that a bike is a piece of shit or not. Lacking such ability, I was limited in my search to new bikes. If I had any real motorcycle mechanical knowledge I would likely have explored a used machine. Knowing I didn't, I didn't want to end up with a "project" bike, searching for parts, bruising knuckles, reading service manuals and basically, not riding the thing.

[music man]

:bang: I understand that the GZ is not ENOUGH motorcycle for you and your riding situation Alan, but saying it is not enough motorcycle for you, and what you said several times to get this whole thread started are night and day different. If I lived in Little Rock (the only city we have big enough traffic and fast speed limits all over to compare to you) I wouldn't even consider a bike that wasn't at least a 600cc (if I would even consider riding one at all in that madness), so I understand that, and I look forward to having a bigger motorcycle because it is easier to go on an extended trip on one.


So enough talk about this, hows the gas mileage on the Stratoliner. And the Stratoliner would make an awful choice for a zombie fighting bike, it would be too hard to make a fast getaway, especially if you had to back up (your brain would be screwed) but on the other hand, if any zombies got in your way, it would probably be the perfect bike to knock them out of the way with.

[alanmcorcoran]

Gas mileage and cruising range are not where the Strat shines. I'm not 100% sure what the gas mileage is - I think it depends a lot on highway vs in town. I think it does close to 50 mpg on the highway but a lot worse in town (30's). It has a 4.5 gallon gas tank, but it shows "E" at about 3.5 gals (to fill it.) I already had my debit card put on hold once cause I bought like 7 bucks worth at two gas stations about 150 miles apart the same day (when I went to Joshua tree.) Apparently this is "suspicious activity."

Bottom line, I've only gassed it up about 9 times and it's got about 1400 miles so it's not fully broken in. I generally don't take it much past 75 (I recently got Yet Another Ticket in the Suburban going 75 on a 65 - which is actually pretty slow out here, so I have to take it easy now anyway. CHP gets a piece of each ticket and let's just say the state is out of money.) The Strat seriously "purrs" at 70-75. I will bet that is where the mileage sweet spot is. I think if I drew the reserve down on a cruise, I might get as much as 180 or a little more out of a tank. Someone, Easy or Sarris, told me about a trick with carrying a bottle of gas and riding it dry to see it's max range, but I haven't tried that yet. Now, the Suburban... it's got a 45 gallon tank. And reverse. At a combined 15 mpg, you can kill zombies for almost 700 miles between fillups!

[alantf]

Had to ride two up down about 12 miles of freeway

I actually do a lot of "two up" riding. Apart from the sheer fun of being on two wheels, my wife rides behind me out of sheer necessity. Over here the traffic is so heavy that a lot of the time it's at a standstill. If we were in the car, a 10 minute ride would take an hour. Also, when we get to wherever we're headed for (like a town or big village) parking places are often impossible to find, so with the bike we can just park on the pavement (sidewalk). Nobody bothers about that sort of thing.
As for freeway riding, though, that's entirely different, & I agree totally with Alan. Last week we went on the autopista together for the first time. We only needed to go one exit, thank goodness, but never again. Luckily the traffic was light for once, as there was no way the bike would get up to the speed I normally ride at when I'm on my own. Luckily I don't do much autopista riding (& especially not two up) or I would certainly have to consider getting a more powerful bike, which would be a pity, because the GZ is PERFECTLY suited to every other condition over here.

[Sarris]

Just remember, with EFI, it may take a few minutes of cranking to get the fuel system pressurized after you run her dry.

As I stated, I always ride my bikes dry once (after break-in). Just don't put the pint of gas in your saddlebag until you are getting close to E. You don't want to have a whoop-shit with that on board.

It's the only way you'll truly know.

BTW, BMW's are a very comfy ride if you have a 38" inseam, no nutz (you lean over on them... OW!!!!) and you have no wrist problems or arthritis.

You bear you weight directly on your perineum (no mans land) and your wrists. I've ridden several and I hate the riding position.

:techy: :)

[Easy Rider]

Just remember, with EFI, it may take a few minutes of cranking to get the fuel system pressurized after you run her dry.


Hmmmm......it may take a few minutes of the fuel pump running and you might want to cycle the ignition on and off a time or two but cranking the starter/engine won't get it up to pressure any quicker. :tup:

[adrianinflorida]

I think the little GZ is a better bike in one big way than most bigger bikes. It is just plain fun to ride.To draw a parallel, I've had both a 96 Corvette and a 2001 Miata. Guess which one was more fun to drive, here's a hint, it wasn't the Vette.

[alanmcorcoran]

BTW, BMW's are a very comfy ride if you have a 38" inseam, no nutz (you lean over on them... OW!!!!) and you have no wrist problems or arthritis.

I think my inseam is 32" (is that the same as pants length?) and still have both nuts. Don't think I have arthritis yet, but I have lots of aches, pains and soreness, especially in the fingers, wrist and shoulders, but I am chalking that up to: 50 year old body + multiple ski crashes over six days = what the hell did you expect?

Good info to know, though. There's a guy at my client in Chicago that has one (an RT something or other I think, 1200 cc's?) and I think Alton Brown of good eats also has one. It doesn't sound like a relaxed position to me. I believe we refer to no man's land out here as the "taint"

[Sarris]

Easy, I always understood that on a sealed pressurized EFI, when you run the closed sealed system completely dry, you have to crank the motor over a bit to relieve air from the empty line so it can re-fill with fuel. The fuel pump is always on when the key is on, right??

:??:

[Easy Rider]

Easy, I always understood that on a sealed pressurized EFI, when you run the closed sealed system completely dry, you have to crank the motor over a bit to relieve air from the empty line so it can re-fill with fuel. The fuel pump is always on when the key is on, right??


OK....yes....the fuel pump would run and pressurize the "rail" but there might be an air bubble at the end, right next to the actual injectors.

So, you are in fact right that cranking the engine more than "normal" might be necessary but I highly doubt that it would be "minutes". :biggrin:

[mrlmd1]

This thread has gotten a lot milder and has drifted off the original topic (as usual) since it started yesterday, which may be a good thing, maybe not.
I have to add - Whoa, Alan, you are the only one on here having a thread named after you, ? directed at you, about you, and it happened 8 months after you joined. I'm not singling you out specifically, but you have become an example, a target, for a comment made, taken by someone else to be derogatory or demeaning, and we, all of us, shouldn't have any of that.
I think there's some kind of lesson to be learned here, and I'm not exactly sure what it is. Maybe we should not be pissing off the ones who love us the most - the other GZ BIKERS on here, in our very own forum, our very own family. Maybe we shouldn't make derogatory comments about each other's bikes, clothes, helmets, opinions, and other personal things. Maybe we should be a little more careful what we write, read it before submitting, edit it a little. We shouldn't have to apologize to anybody. Get your point across in a kind, diplomatic way. IE., don't piss anyone off. at least not intentionally.

To each his own, but enjoy the ride, whatever you're on. And leave it that way. :) :cool:

[alanmcorcoran]

I'd like to be able to say it's a lesson learned, but, really, this ain't the first time it's happened and it's pretty much a regular deal with me. To be honest, I'd rather take my lumps than start editing and censoring myself. I already overthink most of my life and I'd rather just let it all hang out here and take the consequences. I'm not aiming to get kicked off the forum or anything, but if it came to that, it wouldn't be the first time.

Tact, diplomacy and, just plain being nice and respectful have never come naturally to me and, although I've tried to do it, it's really too much work for me, so I just hope for the best.

[mrlmd1]

We love you anyway, and we understand you, and very well. We just like to pick on you, I guess. . Don't take it so hard, so personal. Just ride and be safe.
And don't f**k off again. (Just kidding). :poke2: :neener: :)

[alanmcorcoran]

No worries, douchebaggery develops thick skin.

[Moedad]

Last night on the Tonight Show, I heard President Obama say the GZ250 belongs in the Special Olympics :retard: of Motorcycles. Oh wait, he was talking about bowling. Never mind.

[patrick_777]

Dude, nobody gets kicked off this forum...least of all you. If some piece of shit spammer or troll gets on here, then they're gone in a heartbeat, but someone with 500+ posts (1250 in your case) has no need to worry.

Generally, if anyone's been here that long, they either have a thick skin and enjoy the back and forth, or they leave willingly. It's unlikely to ever be a forced exit.

...but let's not test that theory. :poke2:

[Easy Rider]

I think there's some kind of lesson to be learned here, and I'm not exactly sure what it is.

In a much broader philosophical (sp?) sense, maybe so.

On Stardate 2630, we will all be just one big world and all disagreement and strife will be gone.
Until then, stuff happens.

Most of what happens here is all in good natured fun. I sometimes get the feeling that you don't have a good grasp of that.

Once in a while someone gets carried away and says something they shouldn't (although God knows **I** would never do that :shocked: ).

It is NORMAL human interaction; really it is.

Edit: The second message on the second page of this thread is also from you. It has quite a different tone. It was posted about 30 minutes after the one I quoted above. Are you trying on purpose to confuse us..........or are you just letting your thoughts "run" out through your fingers?? Something doesn't feel right.

[alanmcorcoran]

Hey guys, good news! I laid my Strat down... again!!! So score another point for the GZ (which has never, ever been down, not even close!)

I can't explain exactly how it happened, but in CA we have these on-ramp meters (basically little traffic lights at the part of the on ramp where you should really be flogging your little horsie, but you have to stop.) I had had a bad day at the (home) office and was on my way to perform at a benefit and was a little distracted/nervous/anxious and I got caught off guard by a car that "didn't go" (the meters some time say "2 cars per green, etc." I actually didn'teven realize they were on - they usually aren't at the time of day it was - there was no traffic on the freeway at all) and had to do a semi-panic stop. I was in third or fourth gear and going up a steep hill and the shoulder was loose gravel. I think I tried to get it down to first instead of putting my feet down. When I did put my foot down, it slid a little, and I realized, I was past the point of holding up my 800 pounds. I've been feeling kind of sore and weak from several bad falls on the slopes to boot, so I basically had to set her down. Couldn't pick it back up either (yes Patrick, I tried the technique from the video, but I couldn't get traction in the loose shoulder. So passers by helped me pick it up and I was on my way. Some more minor scratches on the windshield and a little on the saddlebag.

One more lesson learned, and fortunately, pain free. Needless to say, I would not have had this problem in the GZ. Unfortunately, the bear head I had to wear fit in the Strat saddlebag and I don't have luggage or a trunk on the GZ.

[Easy Rider]

I think I tried to get it down to first instead of putting my feet down.

This is not necessarily a criticism of you, Alan, just a good time to make a point:

Some supposed "experts" (self proclaimed) will disagree with this but the simple fact of the matter is: In a panic stop, one has no business F***ing with the gear shift. You should be concentrating on stopping and keeping the bike upright. This involves both brakes, the clutch, the handle bars and maybe even shifting your weight and putting your feet down when almost stopped (hoping you actually get to that point). Your brain can do only so many things at the same time.......especially on short notice. Shifting gears should NOT be one of them.

To that end, when you practice your "urgent" stops, you should practice it that way: without shifting gears.

[mrlmd1]

I think there's some kind of lesson to be learned here, and I'm not exactly sure what it is.

In a much broader philosophical (sp?) sense, maybe so.

On Stardate 2630, we will all be just one big world and all disagreement and strife will be gone.
Until then, stuff happens.

Most of what happens here is all in good natured fun. I sometimes get the feeling that you don't have a good grasp of that.

Once in a while someone gets carried away and says something they shouldn't (although God knows **I** would never do that :shocked: ).

It is NORMAL human interaction; really it is.

Edit: The second message on the second page of this thread is also from you. It has quite a different tone. It was posted about 30 minutes after the one I quoted above. Are you trying on purpose to confuse us..........or are you just letting your thoughts "run" out through your fingers?? Something doesn't feel right.

I read this a few times, I read my 2 posts on here, and I'm trying to figure out exactly what you are trying to say, and I can't. Somehow it sounds a little negative, a little derogatory, my perception, like you have some kind of chip on your shoulder, ? against me or what I have to say, against some others on here too. While you do have some excellent advice and comments, it's like you are the only one on here who knows anything, about everything. It doesn't really matter to me, again I'm going to let it slide. If "something doesn't feel right" to you, if you have something to say to me, do it directly so we can get it out of the way and resolve it. Otherwise, take a step back and relax a little, go out for a ride and then come back refreshed. AC has taken this all in stride, you should too. This undoubtedly will start another thread.

[Easy Rider]

I'm not singling you out specifically, but you have become an example, a target, for a comment made, taken by someone else to be derogatory or demeaning, and we, all of us, shouldn't have any of that.

Maybe we should not be pissing off the ones who love us the most - the other GZ BIKERS on here, in our very own forum, our very own family. Maybe we shouldn't make derogatory comments about each other's bikes, clothes, helmets, opinions, and other personal things.

Maybe we should be a little more careful what we write, read it before submitting, edit it a little. We shouldn't have to apologize to anybody. Get your point across in a kind, diplomatic way. IE., don't piss anyone off. at least not intentionally.



Herein lies the problem of text communication. It often means something different to the reader than the writer intended. I think that is the case here.

My problem with the above is: I can't quite get a grip on what your main point IS. It seems pretty negative overall but maybe was meant to be constructive. Not worth any further debate, IMHO.

NOW.....I DO have a problem with you, of all people, taking me to task for sharing my accumulated knowledge with others......which in some cases means despelling false impressions.

If this was a forum for laymen to discuss medical issues, I don't think YOU would appreciate being told "it's like you are the only one on here who knows anything, about everything" would you? I think that was a cheap shot.

Truce ?? Please. :cool:

[alanmcorcoran]

Hey guys! this is the beatin' up on alanmcorcoran thread! You're hogging my spotlight! Start your own thread for your fight...

[Easy Rider]

Start your own thread for your fight...

:neener:

[music man]

Hey guys! this is the beatin' up on alanmcorcoran thread! You're hogging my spotlight! Start your own thread for your fight...


If you really want me to divert this thread back to its original topic I would be MORE than happy to. :poke2:

[Water Warrior 2]

Hey guys! this is the beatin' up on alanmcorcoran thread! You're hogging my spotlight! Start your own thread for your fight...

We get to beat up on Alan and he gets to beat up on the Liner. Just curious Alan, does the Liner have crash bars ? And Easy is more than correct when he says forget about downshifting in a panic stop. One more thing to go wrong in the coordination department.

[mrlmd1]

Hey guys! this is the beatin' up on alanmcorcoran thread! You're hogging my spotlight! Start your own thread for your fight...

I was just trying to take the pressure off you, the pressure you deserved (?).
(see if my forum buddy Easy can figure that one out. And may the truce be with you, Easy).
Maybe my sense of humor is a little too dry for this, or too sarcastic, or it's hard to tell when I'm joking. :biggrin: :twisted:

On the more recent topic about AC and the Strat- Applying both brakes in a panic stop is a lot more efficient than trying to use engine braking by downshifting. The braking distance is less and there is much less to think about. Just pull in the clutch and firmly apply both brakes. Taught in all the MSF classes, in all the books, and should be practiced every once in a while so you know when and how to avoid a front or a rear wheel lockup and a skid. Each bike is feels different and ideally should be experienced.
And don't even think about "laying the bike down" in an emergency. First of all, the metal and skin sliding on the asphalt has a much lower coefficient of friction than does the rubber tires on the road and the distance 'till the slide stops is much higher when the bike's on the side than when upright on the tires. Secondly, anyone who tells you they did this, really means he panicked or skidded and fell over, did a low-side spill, and it was not done intentionally.

[mrlmd1]

Alan - I don't know where to put this post, but since this is your thread, here it is, another off topic question for you -- Do you wear a ski helmet? Do you see anyone on the slopes with a ski helmet?
I'm sure most of you on here know about the recent trajic death of actress Natasha Richardson after a relatively minor head bump after falling while taking a skiing lesson. Sonny Bono and (I forgot which) Kennedy also died from head injuries while skiing. Just wondered if this is becoming more common to wear on the slopes, or are skiers not wanting to look "wussy", like the bikers who don't wear helmets and insist on their freedom?

[Easy Rider]

And don't even think about "laying the bike down" in an emergency.

What he said: "I laid her down to keep from hitting that thing that pulled out in front of me."
The truth of the matter: He locked the rear wheel, it started to slide out to the right and he didn't know how to recover. It probably fell over about the time it would have stopped anyway.

[alanmcorcoran]

Just curious Alan, does the Liner have crash bars ?

No, but I told my wife yesterday I'm gonna order some. I suppose there is another thread on here - how many of youse have 'em on the GeeZee? I should maybe do that too, BEFORE I drop that one.

Also, if I put the bars on, does that mean it can't really fall all the way over? Patrick's video aside, I have some doubts about my ability to pick the thing up, ever. I'm not sure whether I am expereincing normal old guy slow healing, but i apparently effed myself up but good on a few face plants in the mountains and my outer triceps are hosed. Even just to bench the bar hurts so I'm out of the gym business for now. It ain't helping my ability to wrassle the Beast.

[alanmcorcoran]

Alan - I don't know where to put this post, but since this is your thread, here it is, another off topic question for you -- Do you wear a ski helmet? Do you see anyone on the slopes with a ski helmet?


This is a subject I am much more expert on! Yes, I DO wear a ski helmet. Yes, many people werar them. I didn't always wear one, just bought one last season (late 2007) as a matter of fact. Two old guys in line at Heavenly had them on and I was effin' with them, and they convinced me to try one, and, I actually like it better than no helmet. Ski helmets are kind of like a 3/4 with no face shield - you wear your goggles over the outside. In addition to protecting your head, they are WARM! That alone sold me.

BTW, I should leave this for mrlmd, but I will bet you 5 bucks Natasha whacked her head BUT GOOD. Ski Patrol don't call the ambulance just cause "you fell on the bunny slope." There is more to this story. She had a fractured skull. Either she had some bone density disease or they are down playing her accident.

http://www.postimage.org/gx2rFZFA.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx2rFZFA)

[alanmcorcoran]

What he said: "I laid her down to keep from hitting that thing that pulled out in front of me."
The truth of the matter: He locked the rear wheel, it started to slide out to the right and he didn't know how to recover. It probably fell over about the time it would have stopped anyway.

Not that I'm not capable of the above, but, my last dump was not that exciting. Here's the deal: I wasn't going that fast to begin with. But I was not expecting the light to be on, or cars to be stopped at it. When it turned green, I thought I had time to make it along with the car in the other lane (there is no yellow.) But I didn't. It turned red, he didn't go and I waffled for a millisecond about blowing through it or stopping. I stopped without really doing the mental "I'm stopping" check list. No skid, front brake only, think I was effing with the gears to get to first (I was on a hill and a sharp turn) and I was next to a slope with soft stuff. Just didn't get my foot down on solid pavement before the bike had leaned past the point of no return. I actually set it down very gently - I scratched it up more trying to pick it back up than when I put it down.

Not to blame this on the GZ, but some of my troubles are due to switching back and forth. The two bikes are VERY DIFFERENT and I just need more miles to get used to the switch off. Got to remember to respect the weight of the Strat and be a lot more careful in uphill slow speed/stopping situations.

[mrlmd1]

Also, if I put the bars on, does that mean it can't fall all the way over? Patrick's video aside, I have some doubts about my ability to pick the thing up, ever. I'm not sure whether I am expereincing normal old guy slow healing, but i apparently effed myself up but good on a few face plants in the mountains and my outer triceps are hosed. Even just to bench the bar hurts so I'm out of the gym business for now. It ain't helping my ability to wrassle the Beast.

I haven't looked up Patrick's video - is that like the ones on You Tube where the bike is picked up by backing up to it and grabbing it backwards with your arms and using your legs to lift it? There are no triceps or arm muscles used in that except to hold on to the bike. It's got to be hard in gravel though, 'cause you need secure planting of your feet to be able to pick up the bike with your quads. Engine guards may only make it a tiny bit easier because maybe it would lie at a slightly higher angle than flatter without the guards, ie, less distance to pick up or easier to grab. They may prevent some scratches on the tank, though if it does get laid down I bet any damage to the brake/clutch levers would be the same.

[alanmcorcoran]

Yes that's the technique. I did have trouble getting under it and with footing. Tank has been okay. Windshield had gotten most of it - a little on the saddlebags this time.

[patrick_777]

Just to add to this a little since there were like 12 posts since this afternoon: When most people say they "had to lay it down", they aren't necessarily meaning they intentionally low-sided it to avoid hitting an object period (some are, but they are morons).
Many of the people I've heard that from are avoiding a violent high-side collision when a collision is inevitable. Think - T-boning a car straight on and flying over the bars, compared to sliding into a car with the bike in front of you. Honestly, I'm not sure which would be worse because you're basically colliding with two vehicles when you slide into it, but from a psychological standpoint, I can see where flying through the air for 20 feet then grinding to a stop 100 feet later would be less desirable. Also add a possible direct impact with the a-pillar and you're talking about possible severed limbs.

mrlmd, I sent Alan a copy of Ride Like A Pro III, which is a very informative video on slow-speed handling of large cruisers and tourers. It's very applicable to all bikes though and I've gotten very good practice sessions out of it.

[alanmcorcoran]

Patrick I was out on a 100 plus mile meander today (on the big one) and I did try to focus on some of the leaning and cornering tips but I really ought to get me some cones and get down to basics in a parking lot. Soon.

[patrick_777]

You can cut old tennis balls in half and use them as cones too...they work really well and don't affect anything if you run them over.

[alanmcorcoran]

I got some dead racquetballs and I know where I can get more... Thanks for the tip!

[patrick_777]

Be careful cutting them in half, though, they can be deadly. I suggest using smallish scissors instead of a knife.

[alantf]

Engine guards They may prevent some scratches on the tank, though if it does get laid down I bet any damage to the brake/clutch levers would be the same.

Yes ..... I totally agree. If you see my post "damage report" where someone reversed into my parked GZ, last week, you'll see that I have a great SPAAN engine guard, & that stopped the tank getting scratched, but the brake lever got broken, the bar ends bent, the engine guard itself got damaged, & the exhaust & box got scratched. I think the main benefit of an engine guard in a lay down is that your leg is not going to be trapped under the bike. That in itself is a mighty good reason for getting one. In England they're known as "crash bars" for that very reason.

[mrlmd1]

Engine guards They may prevent some scratches on the tank, though if it does get laid down I bet any damage to the brake/clutch levers would be the same.

I think the main benefit of an engine guard in a lay down is that your leg is not going to be trapped under the bike. That in itself is a mighty good reason for getting one. In England they're known as "crash bars" for that very reason.


Right - The main benefit of those guards is to try and protect you (your leg from being squished between the bike and the road) rather than really protecting the bike. It really is a crash protection guard, not really and engine protection guard, altho the engine and tank may secondarily benefit from it.

[Easy Rider]

Also, if I put the bars on, does that mean it can't really fall all the way over?

No. It will still fall over, just not all the way DOWN.

That hopefully does two things: Keeps the upper body of the bike from taking as much damage and keeps the lower body of the rider from being crushed by the weight of the bike, should you end up UNDER it.

It gives you only a TINY head start in the "picking it up" department and probably won't help with that.

[Easy Rider]

I stopped without really doing the mental "I'm stopping" check list. No skid, front brake only, .......

OK, here's the deal: In a panic stop, there is NO "I'm stopping" check list. It needs to be automatic and instant; at a minimum both brakes. In some respects, a panic stop at low speed is more difficult to control than if you were going faster. I think the odds of falling over (NOT the same as laying it down) in a low speed panic stop are VERY high. This is all the more unfortunate if you are riding a "beast". :biggrin:

I believe this indicates that you need more miles under your belt and/or more practice time in the empty parking lot with the "beast".

[mrlmd1]

Don't forget, in any panic stop, low or high speed, the front wheel has to be steered straight ahead, otherwise, if the wheel is turned to one side when the front brake is applied you are going down in a low side fall. If going slowly, to slow in a curve or tight turn the rear brake should be used. In a slow speed turn applying the front brake will bring the bike down more often than not. This can also happen at higher speeds, that's why you slow down before entering the curve rather than trying to brake and slow if you are too fast when you are in the turn.

[Easy Rider]

This can also happen at higher speeds, that's why you slow down before entering the curve rather than trying to brake and slow if you are too fast when you are in the turn.

A "prudent" amount of breaking in a curve is not likely to take you down.......but it WILL tend to stand you more upright, greatly increase the radius of your turn and steer you right OFF the outside shoulder. :cry:

This is something a road rider needs to practice a bit as it is sometimes necessary to slow down after you have entered a curve and it works MUCH better if you know what to expect. :)

[alanmcorcoran]

Since my incident, I've had the benefit of re-riding the scene of the crime, twice (once with a passenger) and I think I have a little better idea as to what actually happened. Imagine an almost complete, pretty tight circle of asphalt. Now, break it at one point and lower one end down about 60 feet. That is the on ramp entrance. Now, put a little tiny, fast, green/red............. green/red.............. green/red light at the top that is about two feet off the ground. Divide it so there's two lanes.

Here's the deal - to get up this thing (it's very steep), which is heavily trafficed, I'm in third and I'm on the throttle and I'm leaned over to the right about as far as I can go without scratching the foot rest. I'm in the inside (tightest) lane. When I get to the top. there is a car sitting in the outside lane, stopped, blocking my view of the little light meter. Stopped car gets my attention cause there is only ONE lane after the meter. I notice the light on my side. It's green. Just as I think I will go behind stopped car, stopped car goes, but my light turns red. I'm caught off guard (and off balance.) I probably should have just kept going, but, as I mentioned before, I've got tickets and there are cops EVERYWHERE these days writing as many tickets as they can. So I stopped, probably spent a millisecond trying to get to first out of habit, and then, by the time I got my right foot down I was already leaned over too far to the right. I was fully stopped at this point (no rubber, no slide, no skid [it is up a steep hill after all]), but, I quickly realized, I was not going to be able to keep the bike upright. Even though it's 800 pounds, I am apparently able to "set it down gently" without ripping anything in my back.

[Water Warrior 2]

Just be thankful the Strat has a low center of gravity.

[alanmcorcoran]

Yeah, I'm pretty happy that the thing has been down TWICE already and the damage is mostly confined to scratches on the windshield. One (of many) lessons learned - heavy bikes are most problematic when they are not in motion.

[Sarris]

heavy bikes are most problematic when they are not in motion.

Heavy bikes are problematic with inexeperienced newbie riders on board.

:skull:

[Easy Rider]

I'm in third and I'm on the throttle and I'm leaned over to the right about as far as I can go without scratching the foot rest.

Good description of the events; how about a little analysis ??

The only thing that stands out for me is "3rd gear". I think that is a hint that you might have been going a bit too fast or been a gear too high or both.

And yes, I know the cages probably tear up to the light at 30 mph or more.......but do they then stop abruptly if it turns red?

No criticsm here, just wondering.

[mrlmd1]

When the bike went over to the right side and you let it down, was the front wheel turned to the right as you were going to turn that way?, and did you apply the front brake moving slowly ahead, then the bike went down? If so, applying the brake with the wheel turned over to the side brought it down. And once something that heavy starts to go, it probably will. The only way you may have stopped it would have been to turn the wheel straight and try to give it some throttle. The next time you going real slow and are trying to stop with the wheel turned to the side, use more rear brake, it tends to make the bike more upright and doesn't change the front end geometry.

[music man]

heavy bikes are most problematic when they are not in motion.

Heavy bikes are problematic with inexeperienced newbie riders on board.

:skull:


:plus1: :plus1: :plus1: :plus1: :plus1: :plus1: :plus1: :plus1:

[alanmcorcoran]

When the bike went over to the right side and you let it down, was the front wheel turned to the right as you were going to turn that way?, and did you apply the front brake moving slowly ahead, then the bike went down? If so, applying the brake with the wheel turned over to the side brought it down. And once something that heavy starts to go, it probably will. The only way you may have stopped it would have been to turn the wheel straight and try to give it some throttle. The next time you going real slow and are trying to stop with the wheel turned to the side, use more rear brake, it tends to make the bike more upright and doesn't change the front end geometry.

I'd be guessing about most of this becuase it was one of those things where it happened real fast, and I'd probably be remembering things the way I preferred them to happen rather than what actually happened. I can't be 100% sure, but I probably didn't use the rear brake. I was pretty good with using both brakes back in June when i was learning, but I've gotten lazy and tend to mainly use the rear bake to keep the bike from rolling forward or backward when I release the front.

I got REAL careful about appying the brake when turning after the front slid out from under me the FIRST time, so I probably tried to get the bike straight and upright before I braked. I think where I blew it is, I was too focused on "it's a steep hill" "I don't want to roll down it" "And I don't want to be stuck in third when I got to go again" instead of "Make sure you get both feet down!"

[alanmcorcoran]

The only thing that stands out for me is "3rd gear". I think that is a hint that you might have been going a bit too fast or been a gear too high or both.

Possibly, but I don't think so. This is kind of a steep and tight ramp. You need to go a certain speed just to get up it, but you can't go too fast or you will drift into the outer lane. The speed I can go is pretty much dictated by the geometry. If I was going too fast, I wouldn't have been able to maintain my lane. As it was, I set the bike down at the inner edge of the ramp suc that the bars were over the curb and in the soft dirt. The people in my own inner lane were able to go around me and the bike until someone helped me pick it up.


And yes, I know the cages probably tear up to the light at 30 mph or more.......but do they then stop abruptly if it turns red?
No criticsm here, just wondering.

These things are a real pain in the ass. They aren't on but a few hours of the day, some allow one, two or three cars per "green", sometimes its "per lane" other times it's per "green." There's no yellow. Some people routinely blow through them, some people panic stop. Sometimes the outer lane is "carpools" only, sometimes not. Sometimes (a lot of times now right now) there are cops sitting on the shoulder just past them and ticketing everyone that is in either the car pool lane or didn't follow "the rules"

It's manageable when there is already a line, and it's not rocket science when you are in a car, but, as with most things on the freeway, not much consideration was given to two wheeled vehicles.

[alanmcorcoran]

Heavy bikes are problematic with inexeperienced newbie riders on board.

Well, y'all can fire away here, but:

1) Many of the "experienced" riders I have talked to have confessed to me, that they have had a whoopshit or two with their Beasts (often at slow speed, in a driveway or a parking lot) and had to set them down. Shit happens.
2) I don't know where the "newb" chart can be looked up, but at 5000 miles, I consider myself at least a novice. I am also aware, I will be considered a "newb" by some of you until I die, especially if it's underneath the Beast or neatly separated by a guardrail. Good way to go IMO.
3) I think the best thing newbs can do is get experience. (I don't ride like a maniac.) The only way I'm going to learn how to ride a heavy bike, is to ride a heavy bike. Some of you will argue that I should have "worked my way up" and there might be some merit to that, but I'll bet you also would have made the same comments if I had, say, a 600 pound bike.
4) I have never even been close to this isue with the GZ. The reality is, riding the GZ does not teach you much about handling an 800 pound bike. You need an 800 pound bike for that.

I'm learning, and I have a long way to go (and will probably never be an "expert" rider) but I don't buy the argument that you need to have a ten year plan to learn to ride a full size cruiser. Hopefully my frequency of fuckups will go down with time and none of the early ones will kill or maim me.

[Sarris]

My point is, 3000 miles on a GZ does not qualify you or anyone else to ride a Road Yacht.

I am in favor of graduated licensing and have pushed legislators in FL to pass it.

If it goes, you would have to get a m/c learners permit and be limited to 500cc or less for 24 months or 24K whichever comes first.

A whoop-shit on a 250 can be very forgiving. Not so on a Road Yacht.

Way too many guys get hurt or hurt other people because they assume that just because they put 3000 miles on a GeeZer that they can handle a Road Yacht.

Two drops in a week. Hmmmm........... I'm convinced.

:skull:

[Easy Rider]

The only way I'm going to learn how to ride a heavy bike, is to ride a heavy bike.

Yes, IF you do it properly.

Some of your comments indicate, however, that you are picking up some BAD habits.......like not using the rear brake.....and worrying too much about what gear you are in......or maybe counting too much on your new found torque and not BEING in the right gear so you don't have to worry about it.

Anyhow, continuing to have small mishaps is probably NOT a good sign. :cry:

[music man]

4) The reality is, riding the GZ does not teach you much about handling an 800 pound bike. You need an 800 pound bike for that.



If that is the case, then you wasted your money on the GZ, you should have just went straight to the 800 pound bike.

[alanmcorcoran]

My point is, 3000 miles on a GZ does not qualify you or anyone else to ride a Road Yacht.

I am in favor of graduated licensing and have pushed legislators in FL to pass it.

If it goes, you would have to get a m/c learners permit and be limited to 500cc or less for 24 months or 24K whichever comes first.

A whoop-shit on a 250 can be very forgiving. Not so on a Road Yacht.

Way too many guys get hurt or hurt other people because they assume that just because they put 3000 miles on a GeeZer that they can handle a Road Yacht.

Two drops in a week. Hmmmm........... I'm convinced.

I'm open to constructive criticism, but I don't find arbitrary beliefs to being very persuasive. Motorcycle riding is risky and dangerous. Some people will never, EVER be able to ride one well, given 24 months, 24K or 24 years. Others can pick one up off a dealer lot and ride it home. I've mentioned before I took the MSF course and got a perfect score - proving both that A) I am somewhat prudent and B) just because you take and pass a course doesn't mean you won't make mistakes. You've got to get out there and ride and get experience.

I agree that mistakes on the GZ are preferable to one on the Strat, but I want to learn to ride the Strat, and I stand by my statement that all the hours in the world on the GZ are not going to be as good as practicing on the Strat.

Again, I welcome pointers, tips, suggestions, but unless someone can cite some statistics that riders with 24K on a GZ is substantially more likely to never drop a big bike than someone with 3500 miles, it's not helpful. I did a lot of research on motorcycle accidents and, although there are a few blips here and there (first 500 miles and, between 3000-5000), it pretty much looks like motorcycle accidents kill and maim riders of all ages, all sizes and all levels of experience. The owner of Mission Motorsports, a lifelong experienced rider in his late forties, was killed last May on his bike on the way to work.

You have never set one of your big bikes down after misjudgment or mental lapse?

Supposing I decided that everyone in Florida should wear a helmet until they had been riding 5 years or 50K whichever came first?

You can't learn how to ski the expert slopes on the bunny hill, and you probably aren't going to learn much without a few falls. If I continue to have the same frequency of drops going forward (boy, that will suck) I'll give up on the big bike and try something lighter (shadow, M50.) But, even though I am basically a pussy, I am by no means intimidated by it yet. These were two very minor mistakes, that, unfortunately, had serious consequences.

[Moedad]

I'm open to constructive criticism, but I don't find arbitrary beliefs to being very persuasive. Motorcycle riding is risky and dangerous.

There's the problem right there - you've already demonstrated two serious lapses in judgment by 1) deciding to ride a motorcycle, and 2) even worse, deciding to ride it in urban Southern California with the heavy traffic and multiple freeways. You're just crazy. :whistle:

Maybe if everybody else in the country rode here for their first 5,000 miles, arbitrary beliefs would be more meaningful.

[mrlmd1]

"These were two very minor mistakes, that, unfortunately, had serious consequences."

Only to your ego and some scratches on the windshield.

Lucky or not, they were both at low speed maneuvering. So that's where you should practice, hitting the parking lot. And realize that only reading, getting educated, proper instruction, and PRACTICE, will fix it so it doesn't happen again. It's not as forgiving as the GZ 'cause of it's size and weight, and will take a lot of concentration to get good at it. I'm still going around paved roads with no houses on them (yet) where I live and practicing slow speed turns, circles, stops and starts, and I've had my bike now for a year and a half. You need the experience and the memory so it becomes automatic without thinking too hard about it.
It's relatively easy to cruise along at 50-60mph, much harder to do extremely slow turns without putting a leg down or falling over from improper braking, throttle and friction zone practice.
Ever see those videos of the motorcycle cops doing the slow speed obstacle course challenges, or the videos by CaptCrashIdaho on You Tube? Go to
http://www.motorcycle-journal.com/forum ... rashs-pad/ (http://www.motorcycle-journal.com/forum/captain-crashs-pad/) and watch some of those things. All of you. That takes some skill. And a lot of practice, and I would bet most of us on here couldn't perform that well.
And riding for 5,000 or 10,000 or 24,000 miles is not that important as a few hundred or more miles of slow speed turns and maneuvering. If 99% of anyone's riding is on a fast or medium speed road, it doesn't teach you anything about going slow, stopping, slow speed turns - a totally different animal. :)

[alanmcorcoran]

"These were two very minor mistakes, that, unfortunately, had serious consequences."

Only to your ego and some scratches on the windshield.

Lucky or not, they were both at low speed maneuvering. So that's where you should practice, hitting the parking lot. And realize that only reading, getting educated, proper instruction, and PRACTICE, will fix it so it doesn't happen again. It's not as forgiving as the GZ 'cause of it's size and weight, and will take a lot of concentration to get good at it. I'm still going around paved roads with no houses on them (yet) where I live and practicing slow speed turns, circles, stops and starts, and I've had my bike now for a year and a half. You need the experience and the memory so it becomes automatic without thinking too hard about it.
It's relatively easy to cruise along at 50-60mph, much harder to do extremely slow turns without putting a leg down or falling over from improper braking, throttle and friction zone practice.
Ever see those videos of the motorcycle cops doing the slow speed obstacle course challenges, or the videos by CaptCrashIdaho on You Tube? Go to
http://www.motorcycle-journal.com/forum ... rashs-pad/ (http://www.motorcycle-journal.com/forum/captain-crashs-pad/) and watch some of those things. All of you. That takes some skill. And a lot of practice, and I would bet most of us on here couldn't perform that well.
And riding for 5,000 or 10,000 or 24,000 miles is not that important as a few hundred or more miles of slow speed turns and maneuvering. If 99% of anyone's riding is on a fast or medium speed road, it doesn't teach you anything about going slow, stopping, slow speed turns - a totally different animal. :)

Well, it may be a first, but I think I agree with this post 100%. If I had to criticize myself, I'd say my biggest problem is I don't have the self-discipline to just get out the cones and hit the parking lot, because, having been there and done that, it gets old real fast. However, I think I have a teensy bit more motivation to get serious because I might not be so lucky after the next whoop-shit.

I have a perfectly good video Patrick sent me that has pretty much exactly what I need in it. I just need to go do it.

[Sarris]

Alan, it's not a "you" thing. Do a Google search for "graduated motorcycle license" and see how many states have the law. That should prove to you that it's not an "arbitrary" belief, but one that is based in solid fact, and that it save lives.

I also think people also should have to take a road test on a Big Bike before they get to upgrade their license.

And yeah, I've had my share of whoop-shits on lots-o-bikes over the years, those go with the addiction.

I just hope your mid-life testoterone rush hasn't clouded your (seemingly) good sense.

Just 'cause you can afford a Ferrari, doesn't make you Mario Andretti.

I'm done, be safe.

:) :) :2tup: :2tup:

[alanmcorcoran]

Out here, they actually discourage you from taking the test on a Big Bike (because you will probably not pass, and, will probably drop it to boot [which I have witnessed in the DMV parking lot - now there's a Walk of Shame!]) In fact, people will rent a scooter to take the test (perfectly legal!) even though they are going to be riding a 650.

To bolster your case, I would NOT want to take the "box" test on the Strat!

In any case, I am not against education or practice, but I generally don't like bureaucracies doing my thinking for me if I can avoid it. Laws tend to be written for the lowest common denominator and to address/punish the behavior of the most irresponsible. I understand that they also are written to protect the rest of the world from my own stupidity (which is a good thing) but all things considered, being a pussy, I think I am a relatively small menace to society.

Given the inherent risks, rather than promising to be safe, I will promise to not be reckless.

[Easy Rider]

If 99% of anyone's riding is on a fast or medium speed road, it doesn't teach you anything about going slow, stopping, slow speed turns - a totally different animal. :)

Good post.

It works the other way around too. People have hundreds of hours tooling around town at < 40 mph, go out on the highway, enter a curve too fast and ride it right off the outside. If they are lucky, it is a left hand curve......or there is no opposing traffic when they cross the center lane.

You get good at what you do the most.

[Easy Rider]

Just 'cause you can afford a Ferrari, doesn't make you Mario Andretti.


NO! Really? :roll:

How about Danica Patrick.....mmmmm....oops, different subject. :biggrin:

[Moedad]

Do a Google search for "graduated motorcycle license" and see how many states have the law. That should prove to you that it's not an "arbitrary" belief, but one that is based in solid fact, and that it save lives.

You know what's funny? Here in CA, IF you can get a concealed handgun permit, you have to jump through a number of hoops and pay several different types of fees (all depending on the county in which you reside). Hoops include a 16 hour training course, qualification test with each handgun you plan to carry (maximum of three), and an inspection to make sure your three weapons are CA legal. That's after months of waiting in between each step. And that's IF you live in a county that issues. But you can get a motorcycle permit with a simple written test, and hit the road in the baddest crotch rocket you can afford. In some of the states with graduated motorcycle licenses, you can get a carry permit in 20 minutes after paying a small fee and carry any pistol(s) you can legally buy. It's a funny world.

[mrlmd1]

Good post to you too, Easy, my friend. And you are right, it works both ways.
And to Alan, if you can't pass the test on the Big Bike, you probably shouldn't be riding it. And if you DO drop it, whose fault is that? Not the test's.
Maybe a rider should have to pass a test for each bike he considers buying, or if you move up into a higher, different displacement range, to demonstrate some sort of proficiency with it, before getting it registered.
That would be a little extreme but maybe safer for the bike.

[Easy Rider]

That would be a little extreme but maybe safer for the bike.

And any real rider knows that is the important part!! :shocked: :lol: :crackup

[alanmcorcoran]

To be honest, no one was more surprised than me when I passed the "box" test with the GZ. I seriously wouldn't want to have to repeat that one with the smaller bike either. Not sure if it's just my bugaboo, but that was the only thing in the entire three day class that presented any challenge whatsoever, and having effed it up 2 or 3 of the 4 times I practiced it, I was pretty sure I was going to blow it come test time. A harbinger of eff-ups to come.

[mrlmd1]

Then practice it more, and when you "get it", are comfortable on the GZ, then practice it with the Strat 'till you feel the same way. Right? If you know that is your bugaboo, then get out the cones or go to the parking lot when no one else is there, if there is such a place near you. Or a quiet street, maybe a dead end or cul-de-sac somewhere where you can make u-turns. Practice, practice, and then do it again.

[alantf]

Laws tend to be written for the lowest common denominator

There's an old saying :-

Rules are for the obedience of fools & the guidance of wise men.

[adrianinflorida]

Then practice it more, and when you "get it", are comfortable on the GZ, then practice it with the Strat 'till you feel the same way. Right? If you know that is your bugaboo, then get out the cones or go to the parking lot when no one else is there, if there is such a place near you. Or a quiet street, maybe a dead end or cul-de-sac somewhere where you can make u-turns. Practice, practice, and then do it again.
He's right. You may never become truly comfortable doing the box excercise, but at least, with practice, you won't dread a tight u-turn, and it, like the rest of the maneuvers, will become second nature.

[Easy Rider]

and it, like the rest of the maneuvers, will become second nature.

I think that pretty well summarizes the whole situation.

And, although some people will never understand it, for his own protection, a rider needs to practice situations and moves that he will, hopefully, never encounter in every day riding.

Kind of like Alan's low-speed whoop-shit but worse. If you never practice panic stops or abrupt slow-downs while leaned over in a curve, the first time you encounter that situation may be your LAST (for anything). :skull:

And finally, how does this figure into the "beast" bike consideration?

Some of that stuff is difficult and (more) dangerous to practice on a BIG bike......like when and when NOT to put your feet down in a slide. The answer to that on a big bike is NEVER; nasty compound fractures can result. :skull:

I think everyone who is really serious about riding a bike should get something light (even lighter than the GZ if possible) and then go out into an open pasture and wring it out good; lock the back, lock the front, lock BOTH, slide around a bit. It is FUN and instructional.

It is just NOT practical to do that on a "beast" so, IMHO, if the beast is the only bike you ever have, you miss some critical elements of really good training.

Whew. That's all folks. I quit on that subject.
Do practice some Alan, please?
We would miss you if you were gone. :cool:

[Water Warrior 2]

For sure, a light bike and an open field to play in. Ask anyone who started out dirt riding if it was an advantage to have the experience before street riding. The answer will be a resounding YES.