Rusted exhaust bolts

[Canuck]

Hey all,

Been looking over the GZ and realized how rusty my Exhaust Bolts are...

Now what if they were attempted to be removed... and snapped in half... THEY DIDNT but I want them changed to prevent that from happened but I'm worried about snapping them...

Is there any way to treat the bolts and prevent this.. or should i get the shop to see what they can do.. IE using a blow torch to heat up the area? does that work or am i just talking jibberish?

Is there a solvent to spray on and provide some lubrication to relieve them from there position and get them out?


The manual says to tighten.. and mine cannot be tightened any further.. if they were Im sure a negative reaction will take place...

thanks ahead for responses!

[mrlmd1]

You can try and spray them with WD-40 or similar, the problem is to get the stuff down into the threads. A light tap with a hammer can also sometimes help to loosen up the rust bond. It may be that only the heads of the bolts are rusted, not down in the threads themselves, but you'll never know 'till you try and remove them. If in doubt, let the shop break them off or just leave them alone 'till something happens. You can coat the rusty part with a phosphoric acid solution marketed under many rust-off names, found in any auto parts dept., to covert the ferrous oxide (rust) to ferrous sulfite (doesn't rust) and try and preserve what's left of the parts you can see. This turns the rusty part black but will keep it from deteriorating any further.

[patrick_777]

Are you talking about the manifold bots on the cylinder head?

Your first try should be soaking them in WD40 and letting it sit overnight. It's designed to work into the little crevices in the rust and dissolve it. Just soak it down really good and don't forget to put a pan or something under it to catch the drippings.

The bolts are more than likely just rusted on the outside and still have most of their rigid strength. You're right that they may not take the same amount of torque they had originally, but they'll probably actually take as much as you can give them. Once you get them out, soak down the inside threads with WD40 too and let it sit for a while. Then go for some stainless or otherwise rust-proof bolts for the replacement.

[music man]

They make lube that is supposed to "Creep" down into the threads, but before and after you spray them you might want to take a wrench and GENTLY turn the bolts a hair back and forth, then spray again......repeat, until you are satisfied that the lube has worked its way down into the threads, then try to remove them.

And yes using a torch on a bolt that won't break loose works, but should be used as a last resort, and I would not ever do it to the head of an engine, you could easily warp it. I have used that technique many times on Lawnmower blade bolts that won't come off, but the only problem is that you boil all the grease out of the bearings when you do that, so you can only use it on bearing housings that can be re-greased and even then its not a good idea.

Not only that you could just start your bike and run it for 20 minutes and get them hot.

[patrick_777]

Not only that you could just start your bike and run it for 20 minutes and get them hot.

That very well could be the best plan anyway. I'm not sure about spraying with WD40 before riding your bike for a while though...

http://www.idlerants.com/graemlins/fire.gif :popcorn:

[music man]

[quote="music man":13439jvm] Not only that you could just start your bike and run it for 20 minutes and get them hot.

That very well could be the best plan anyway. I'm not sure about spraying with WD40 before riding your bike for a while though...

http://www.idlerants.com/graemlins/fire.gif :popcorn:[/quote:13439jvm]

No the lube technique and the the running it to get them hot technique should not be tried at the same time, because of the flammable thing, and also because you will just boil the lube out of the threads anyways.

[Easy Rider]

Now what if they were attempted to be removed... and snapped in half... THEY DIDNT but I want them changed to prevent that from happened but I'm worried about snapping them...


Wow, I wish we had "multi-quote" here. Several things in the subsequent posts need to be addressed (ok, well I FEEL a need to do so anyway!).

First, in general, you should NOT mess with things like that unless you really need to for some reason. It IS likely that they will break off and you will end up with a MUCH worse problem than just a little rust. It is likely that the bike will "die" from other causes long before those bolts break off........if you don't mess with them. Look around on here for a recent thread about a broken head bolt that had a little rust on it.

If you really can't live with the rusty bolt heads, take off the loose rust with some steel wool and then put on some high-temp paint.

Second, WD40 is NOT really good for this kind of operation. Too much solvent and not enough of the right kind of oil. A "real" penetrating oil works MUCH better but even that will require multiple applications over several hours (or days) and needs to include heat/cold cycles to help "suck" the oil down into the threads. Running the engine might even be better than a torch for the heat because it is less likely to catch fire.

Third, one probably should not use the Naval Jelly rust remover because it (phosphoric acid) would creep into cracks and crevices and would be almost impossible to remove.......and then would make the problem worse instead of better (corrosion AND rust). The stuff that turns black is used AFTER removing the rust and is called Rust Reformer or something similar. It does not, however, stand up to heat very good.

And lastly, for removing stubborn bolts, a shop will usually use an impact driver set on a really low setting to "jar" it loose......after applying penetrating oil and trying a reasonable hand application. Most home shops don't have such a tool.

Whew. I think that covers it all.
Other opinions welcome but in your heart, you know I'm right !! :popcorn:
:whistle: :biggrin:

[patrick_777]

Thanks for making us all once again look stupid, Easy. :redflip:

Canuck... do what he said.

[alantf]

Your first try should be soaking them in WD40

A real good alternative to WD40 is good old fashioned Coke. Sounds a bit redneck, I know, but it works just fine.

[music man]

I agree with Easy Rider on the part about you SHOULDN'T mess with them unless its absolutely necessary, but I was just giving you some ideas on the best way to do it, if you chose to do so.

[mrlmd1]

Isn't this one of those things that, if it ain't broke, don't fix it? If nothing is leaking and all that's bad is you don't like how it looks, then don't look at it. You can ask the shop about it the next time you have to go in there for something else, otherwise there are probably more important things in your life to think about.

The idea of heating something up with a torch is to have one part or metal expand/contract at a different rate than the other, to break apart the rust bond, a sort of welding between the 2 objects. When the engine is run, if both of the metals are of the same composition, the bond may not break as aren't both of the metals expanding and contracting together at the same rate? This is different than trying to heat up just the bolt with a torch. Or having a stainless bolt screwed into aluminum. I would still suggest not to be concerned about a cosmetic problem and concentrate on making it look nice if it really bothers you. If you have a leak, or if the bolt head snaps off (very unlikely), then the shop can get it out.

I wasn't recommending the rust converter stuff (phosphoric acid) to try and get the bolts loose, just to coat the heads of the bolts so they wouldn't rust anymore. This is not a coating, it is a chemical reaction that changes the surface and shouldn't be affected by engine heat. Then, if you don't like the blackish apprearance of the bolts, a little bit of high temp paint could solve the problem if you liked that look better.

[Easy Rider]

Thanks for making us all once again look stupid, Easy. :redflip:


You ARE a great straight man.........but I will resist the temptation.......this time.

I will however share a little secret with you; don't tell anybody else, OK ?

Very often those folks who can tell you with some convincing authority what NOT to do are not really that smart. They just have a better than average memory............for their own numerous stupid mistakes over a LOT of years !! :shocked: :biggrin:

[Easy Rider]

Isn't this one of those things that, if it ain't broke, don't fix it? If nothing is leaking and all that's bad is you don't like how it looks, then don't look at it.

Priceless!! :2tup: :crackup


I wasn't recommending the rust converter stuff (phosphoric acid) to try and get the bolts loose, just to coat the heads of the bolts so they wouldn't rust anymore. This is not a coating, it is a chemical reaction that changes the surface and shouldn't be affected by engine heat.

OK, once more:

The "stuff" with phosphoric acid is naval jelly and is intended to remove the rust.....ONLY. It MUST be washed off after use......unless you want an even bigger mess later.

The other "stuff" that supposedly reacts with the remaining rust is NOT based on phosphoric acid and it is called something like rust reformer and turns black.

These are two different products that do two different things. Look it up if you feel you must.

I have used the reformer stuff in the past and am not convinced that it really reacts with anything. At any rate, the resulting black stuff is NOT resistant to heat OR weather (water) and must be covered with paint for any kind of a permanent solution.......and I didn't like the results even then.

In most cases, I think one can achieve better results with scrape, sand and a good rust resistant paint......several coats. :)

[mr. softie]

The exhaust bolts are obviously steel, and I think they are hardened. They should back out with surprising ease. The head is aluminum. The bolts most likely have a surface rust on the exposed portion, and will rust again soon after you clean them. I would not try to tighten them up any more. Use a tight fitting 1/4" drive 6 point socket (8mm)? and an extension. Left is loosen. Have a pair of exhaust gaskets handy because the old ones are probably crap. Remove the old gaskets and install the new ones. Put some anti-seize compound on the bolt threads and tighten to specs. Part of the regular maintainance is retightening these bolts, as the gaskets compress over time. See the manual.

[Easy Rider]

Part of the regular maintainance is retightening these bolts, as the gaskets compress over time. See the manual.

Yes.....maybe. I think that it would be more appropriate to say that the routine maint. is to "check the bolts to be sure they aren't loose".

IF there is no sign of the pipes being loose AND no sign of exhaust leak AND they don't turn with light to moderate torque applied..........I certainly would NOT insist on "retightening".

Another case of "ain't broke, don't fix it" !! :tup:

[Canuck]

Well thanks guys,

It's not the aesthetics I'm particularly concerned about, but more the function and reasoning why the manual asks me to tighten every once and awhile.

I ride alot of highway miles and also around the city, Routine maintenance is key in prevention and treatment of immediate or impending problems..

I just would want a strong solid set of new bolts to put on the exhaust to prevent any further damage the rusting bolts might cause.

So after reviewing all that your guys have said(especially Easy Rider)I think running the bike until it reaches close to max temp. put some penetrating lubrication, give it a light turn to the left and hope for the best.

My one concern is If they DO break... how would the shop get out snapped bolt shafts?

[Easy Rider]

So after reviewing all that your guys have said(especially Easy Rider)I think running the bike until it reaches close to max temp. put some penetrating lubrication, give it a light turn to the left and hope for the best.

My one concern is If they DO break... how would the shop get out snapped bolt shafts?

OK, so you were listening......but not closely enough apparently. :roll:

YOU SHOULD NOT TRY TO REMOVE AND REPLACE THOSE BOLTS. They are (likely) rusting ONLY on the part that is exposed to the air and water and are NOT rusting down in the threads where it really counts.......and even if they ARE, it would take about 100 years before they rust enough to affect their strength.

As for removing broken bolts in a head, it depends on how old they are and why they broke. Hopefully using real penetrating oil, a little heat and something like visegrips they can turn the bolt out. If not, then you cut it off, drill it out and re-tap or put in a heli-coil.

A real shop doesn't usually have that problem as they have the skills and tools to get them out without breaking.

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T F*** WITH IT!!

Did you go back and look for the thread about the rusted head bolts ?? If not you really should.

I quit.

[Canuck]

Thanks for your patience "Easy" Rider

[Water Warrior 2]

Here's a thought. The surface rust is probably preventing the bolts from coming loose and if there is no gasket failure or exhaust leak there is no problem. Keep it simple, the rusty appearance could be a good thing.

[Easy Rider]

Here's a thought. The surface rust is probably preventing the bolts from coming loose and if there is no gasket failure or exhaust leak there is no problem. Keep it simple, the rusty appearance could be a good thing.

:plus1:

And one final last point: I think the owners manual shows an "I" in the bolts and fasteners item, which means INSPECT and "adjust" as necessary. If the thing secured by the bolt is not loose, and the bolt itself is not loose, I'd say it passed inspection and no "adjustment" is necessary. :cool:

[mr. softie]

What Easy Rider said... I agree.

My pipes were leaking at the head, and I tightened them to no effect, as the gaskets were bad. So I needed to install new gaskets to prevent the leak. If yours are not leaking, by all means leave them alone.

[Canuck]

Fair enough ! Problem is solved thanks fellas

[Quimrider]

Fair enough ! Problem is solved thanks fellas

FYI Dont worry about those bolts. like it has been said above, If it aint broke.... I visually inspect mine every time I change my oil. I got my bike with 3,200 mi. on it and up until I had my head gasket replaced at 10,700 mi. Those bolts hadn't been touched. Like yours mine were corroded and wouldn't budge the one time I tried to move them(shortly after I got the bike).

For future reference if you do need to get those bolts off, it's the thermal cycling that breaks the bolts loose. I learned this after shearing many a bolt off a 40 year old VW. It may take 20-30 or more heat cycles. I always start with letting some penetrating oil soak in for at least a day. then heat, blast with penetrating oil to cool, then gently trying to loosen. I picked up an impact screw driver from Harbor freight for a couple bucks. It the heating doesn't work I gently tap on the impact driver and it's amazing how often it works when I think there is no hope. Do not confuse this with an air powered impact gun. the impact screw driver works by converting the blow of a hammer to a rotation. The compression and shock of the blow on the bolt's threads is what breaks it lose or so a mechanic once told me. I dunno they just work.

[Water Warrior 2]

The good old manual impact driver is great. Have had mine for 30+ years. You can take something apart or put it together with confidence that it will stay put together. Even Alan could master one. lol. :lol:

[mrlmd1]

Hold on - it's not that easy to use. You have to be sure which way it's set, to tighten or loosen with the hammer blow. There are 2 choices, 2 settings. So he would need a tutor or a good set of instructions. :poke2: :lol:

[alanmcorcoran]

Or he could just pay someone else to fix it while he is out riding his other bike. If they are really rusty, he could just dispense with the tool and buy a new bike.

[Water Warrior 2]

Hold on - it's not that easy to use. You have to be sure which way it's set, to tighten or loosen with the hammer blow. There are 2 choices, 2 settings. So he would need a tutor or a good set of instructions. :poke2: :lol:

You are so correct. Forgot the 2 settings and only a 50/50 chance of getting it right. Also, Alan could practice on the Liner so he doesn't get it wrong on the GZ. lol.

[alanmcorcoran]

Yup, dumbass here has two near pristine bikes in the garage in perfect working order, both running like tops, with all scheduled maintenance done. Riding the GZ to work everyday and the Strat on the weekends, averaging about 6K a year in riding miles.

But I sure wish I had more time to take things apart, buy "special" tools and search for cheap parts on the Internet!

(Actually, there's a little buzz on the GZ where the National Cycle windshield is vibrating against the triple clamp. May get out my trusty flat head and tackle that one of these nights!)

[kaput]

I replaced my gaskets the other day and 1 of my old rusty bolt heads broke off!!

Luckily I was able to remove it with my vice grips.

These bots are NOT hardened steel!

I picked up 4 new stainless steel ones with allen wrench heads on them at the local hardware store. Easier to tighten and way stronger.

[mr. softie]

My bad kaput... thought they were hardened. Glad your vice grips worked! Good idea on the new bolts. Did you use anti-seize compound on them?

[mrlmd1]

How tight can you make allen head bolts? The wrench is pretty short and you have no way to know the torque applied. Stainless (depending on the grade) may not get surface rust, but they are no way as strong as steel bolts, do not have the shear strength of a regular steel bolt.

[Easy Rider]

How tight can you make allen head bolts? The wrench is pretty short and you have no way to know the torque applied.

That pretty much describes my "torque wrench". If it is not a mission critical fastener, keep the tool short and that minimizes that chance that you will break it. That applies to things like exhaust bolts that won't do any real damage to bike or rider if they get a little loose.

Allen wrench sets are available with long "handles".......but even those are still pretty short.