Valve adjustments [Archive]

music man

02-18-2009, 05:58 PM

If I had a Service Manual I would have looked it up, but the manuals are $60 and I'm broke.
Not running funny, in fact running great. I have a friend who is a national motorcycle maintanance expert and he says it is time and he will show me how to do it. The bike has 5300 miles on it.

Chris

That is why I gave you the link to the FREE service manual. I guess I should have been a little more specific.

mrlmd1

02-18-2009, 07:05 PM

So again, other than someone says "it's time", or "it's due", or an expert can show you how to do it, what is the reason for doing it in the first place if there's no problem with the running of the bike? I understand that oil's lubricating ability deteriorates over time, so it needs changing. I know tires and brakes wear, so they need replacing. Valve seats wear too, but do they need adjusting or clearances inspected if the engine's running fine, or is this something the dealer says needs be done to make them a few extra bucks? If there's no problem, what happens if they are not "adjusted"?
I've had innumerable cars over the years, and some "high powered, high performance" sports cars, foreign and domestic, and don't ever recall having a valve adjustment on any of them. Other than a little higher revs, what's the difference between a bike and car as far as this goes?

Water Warrior 2

02-18-2009, 07:47 PM

Bikes usually have a different valve train design which needs to be checked/adjusted regularly. If your friendly expert is willing to be a mentor then by all means go for it. Your bike may be running like a dream but on the verge of needing a valve adjustment. Best to check before you burn a valve and need to tear it down.

Easy Rider

02-18-2009, 10:15 PM

Why would you want to fuss with it if it runs fine? Any advantage to checking the clearances if performance and gas mileage is OK?

Because there often are NO symptoms of a valve out of adjustment........until there is damage that can't be fixed with a simple adjustment. This is especially true of designs with multiple valves per port.

I think the recommended intervals are extremely short for the GZ. I intend to have mine checked at about 2X the recommended interval......sooner if there are symptoms.

Easy Rider

02-18-2009, 10:23 PM

I've had innumerable cars over the years, and some "high powered, high performance" sports cars, foreign and domestic, and don't ever recall having a valve adjustment on any of them. Other than a little higher revs, what's the difference between a bike and car as far as this goes?

All of those cars probably had self-adjusting, hydralic valve lifters. Some bikes do too but not many.

Not only do the valve seats wear but so do the seating surfaces of the valve itself, the end of the valve stem, the lifter (if any) and the cam lobes.

mr. softie

02-19-2009, 01:23 AM

Like Easy said...

and if a valve clearance (or "lash") gets tight (below minimum spec.) the valve and/or valve seat in the head will burn & start leaking, especially the exhaust valves. Leaky valves equal lower compression and a top end rebuild (valve job).$$$ :cry:

They burn because the valve is not closing fully thus allowing a flow of high temperature/high pressure gas to erode the metal.

And again as Easy stated, by the time you notice a loss of performance the damage is done. Hence the necessity of scheduled valve lash measurement and if needed, adjustment.

Too large a lash will lead to noisy valves and accelerated wear of valve train components, plus a decrease in horsepower :shocked:

I have checked mine twice (at 6500mi and 9500mi) and they needed a small adjustment each time to be right on spec for the way I want my bike to run. I set mine towards the smaller end of the range, knowing I am going to check them on a regular basis. A larger gap may allow a longer interval between services but hurt top end performance. The range of allowable lash enables a small amount of "tuning" to be done. You can vary the amount of time the valve is open(duration) by varying the lash. Smaller gap=longer duration, bigger gap=shorter duration.

Reducing the lash (smaller gap-longer duration) will increase top end (upper RPM power) horsepower and make for a quieter valve train. Almost like a "bigger" cam! :rawk:
Increasing the lash (bigger gap-shorter duration) can improve low end torque and acceleration, and easier starting, as well as a longer service interval :2tup:

I found that a bicycle nipple wrench works well to keep the small square end of the threaded adjuster from turning while you tighten the holding nut.

mr. softie

02-19-2009, 01:50 AM

Here is an excerpt from the downloadable manual

2-5 PERIODIC MAINTENANCE Remove the valve inspection caps The valve clearance specification is different for intake and exhaust valves. Valve clearance adjustment must be checked and adjusted, 1) at the time of periodic inspection, 2) when the valve mechanism is serviced, and 3) when the camshaft is re-moved for servicing.

Valve clearance (when cold):
IN. : 0.03-0.08 mm (0.001-0.003 in)
EX.: 0.08-0.13 mm (0.003-0.005 in)

NOTE:
* The piston must be at top dead center (TDC) on the compression stroke in order to check or adjust the valve clearance.
* The valve clearance should only be checked when the engine is cold.
* Remove the valve timing inspection plug and generator cover cap
Rotate the crankshaft with a box wrench to set the piston at top dead center (TDC) on the compression stroke. (Rotate the crankshaft until the "T" line on the generator rotor is aligned with the triangle mark on the generator cover.) Insert a thickness gauge into the clearance between the valve stem end and the adjusting screw on the rocker arm.
If the clearance is out of specification, adjust it to specifica-tion as follows.

ADJUSTMENT The clearance is adjusted using the special tool and offset wrench.
• Loosen the locknuts
• Insert a thickness gauge between the valve stem end and the adjusting screwon the rocker arm.
• Adjust the valve clearance by turning the adjusting screw using the special tool while holding the locknuts

CAUTION Both the right and left valve clearances should be as closely as possible.
• After the adjustment is completed, tighten the locknut securely.
• Rotate the crankshaft 720° with a box wrench and check that the clearance is within specification.

See Manual page 20 for more detail

mrlmd1

02-19-2009, 09:28 AM

OK, now you've educated and convinced me. Thanks. One of these days I'll have to get mine done, I have ~4000 miles on my '99, don't know it was ever done as routine maintenance by the previous owner.
How much is needed in special tools, how much do they cost, where do you get them, vs. having the dealer do it?
I have average-above average mechanical abilities and can read and follow directions, but is it worth the investment in the tools, time, etc, if I may only do this once every year or two?

Easy Rider

02-19-2009, 09:40 AM

I have average-above average mechanical abilities and can read and follow directions, but is it worth the investment in the tools, time, etc, if I may only do this once every year or two?

Only YOU can make that call. For me, it's not.
Ask a dealer in your area what they charge and take it from there.
It is not "difficult" but can be a little tricky......especially the first time.
It can be problematic if you have LARGE hands.

Chris

02-19-2009, 10:14 AM

Hi guys,
Lots of good info here. I did download the Service Manual - what good advice that was.

Soon I'll get with my motorcycle maintenance expert and I will ask him all the questions that were raised here. He is going to give me a lesson on how to do it.

Chris, Atlanta

alanmcorcoran

02-19-2009, 12:17 PM

Ask a dealer in your area what they charge and take it from there.
It is not "difficult" but can be a little tricky......especially the first time.
It can be problematic if you have LARGE hands.

Didn't Mr MD used to do open heart surgery?

JWR

02-19-2009, 05:01 PM

mrlmd1

02-19-2009, 05:17 PM

To AC - Yes he did, and very well thank you.

I just wondered how much trouble this is, and like the old adage, if you want something done right, you do it yourself (vs. possibly having the dealer screw it up worse than it wasn't before)
We'll hear from Chris on how his went, how difficult he thought it was. I have no problem doing it, just wondered how much effort, expertise, and expense for the tools it took.
And in surgery, it's the same as this - watch one, do one, teach one..

It would be nice, the next time someone does this, maybe Chris with his expert mechanic, to take some pictures and post it in the "How To" section.

Easy Rider

02-19-2009, 05:49 PM

It would be nice, the next time someone does this, maybe Chris with his expert mechanic, to take some pictures and post it in the "How To" section.

I thought there was one there already.
Do you do brain surgery too ??
I think mine needs a replacement. :biggrin:

GZ250

02-19-2009, 05:54 PM

I have 20K miles and never had valves adjusted. I don't know when its time to have them adjusted. For the last couple of months I am getting less milage so now I was thinking to have them checked by the dealership.

Moedad

02-19-2009, 05:58 PM

All of those cars probably had self-adjusting, hydralic valve lifters. Some bikes do too but not many.

:whistle:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/danmartin56/Miscellaneous/Motorcycles002-1.jpg

Easy Rider

02-19-2009, 06:06 PM

All of those cars probably had self-adjusting, hydralic valve lifters. Some bikes do too but not many.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/danmartin56/Miscellaneous/Motorcycles002-1.jpg

OK, that's ONE.......... :)

I miss my 550. It had shaft drive too. :cry: SNIFF-SNIFF.....got somethin' in my eye.

mr. softie

02-19-2009, 06:50 PM

All the tools you need are less than $20. I take the tank off, makes the job possible. Here is a link to a very good set of feeler gauges, but you could go to sears or autozone etc as well.

http://www.bikebandit.com/product/1411

The feel is what you need to develop when using feeler gauges. Should feel like a knife going through cool butter. Another method is "go/no go". If a .002 and a .003 go through the gap, but a .004 won't, the gap is .003.

It takes me 30 minutes tops to check and adjust my valves on the GZ. One of the big advantages of a single cylinder motor. While I am at it I check the spark plug and the torque of the head bolts, while I have the tank off.

mrlmd1

02-19-2009, 08:34 PM

It would be nice, the next time someone does this, maybe Chris with his expert mechanic, to take some pictures and post it in the "How To" section.

I thought there was one there already.
:biggrin:

I searched before I wrote that and couldn't find one.

And to Alan who wrote "Didn't Mr MD used to do open heart surgery?" It's Dr. MD. :neener: :neener: :poke2:

alanmcorcoran

02-19-2009, 09:43 PM

Let's see how you do adjustin' some "real" valves before we upgrade your salutation.

Water Warrior 2

02-20-2009, 01:44 AM

All of those cars probably had self-adjusting, hydralic valve lifters. Some bikes do too but not many.

:whistle:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/danmartin56/Miscellaneous/Motorcycles002-1.jpg

Just one of the many reasons the NightHawk is still a popular bike.

Not looking forward to a valve check/adjust on the VStrom. But at least I have a line on a pretty good wrencher in a real shop. Don't have the patience or a young enough body to do the work needed.

Canuck

02-27-2009, 03:04 PM

Hey guys, My girlfriends Dad is dropping by for a visit soon so i was thinking of doing the same thing as Chris. Get it done by him and photograph the steps etc in how it is done.

Ill invest in the feelers and necessary stuff to do it right and hopefully have something posted within a week..
Cheers!

Chris

02-27-2009, 03:36 PM

I think adjusting the valves is a bit harder than heart surgery so perhaps we had better be careful who we let try it.
My friend did use .003" for both intake and exhaust valves, but I think that was a bit of luck. This job turned out a bit harder than I remembered. As I said, I videoed it and I am glad I did. Seems like a bit much for the average guy. Mr. Softie may do this casually, but it is some job for most people.
My GZ was getting 75mpg for a long time with easy riding on country highways. Then I switched to hi test gas and (I think) my mileage went to 65mpg. Hard to tell exactly, but on four tankfuls I was getting 65mpg. Yesterday I filled with regular gas and did a 200 mile ride. Part of that was very hard uphills (1st gear!) in the mountains of Alabama. I got 70mpg. I'll make a trip without the hills soon and expect to be back in the mid-70's, we'll see.
Great ride in NE Alabama. Rode around the Little River Canyon as I own property nearby. Never done that before and the canyon is huge! Alabama #275 running SW from Hwy #35 is a very twisty road that has got to compete with the Tail of the Dragon. 23 miles of 1st gear uphills, many turns, and "oh my gosh" downhills. Never got higher than 3rd gear and much of it was in second. Sand on the turns! Just glad to have stayed upright on that ride!

Chris, Atlanta

Joho

03-02-2009, 03:07 PM

For what it's worth, I stopped by a reputable moto shop a few weeks ago. I told the guy who I am, we BS'd a little bit, and I asked him if he wouldn't mind listening to my bike to see if it needed a valve adjustment. Of course, he told me that he could hear ticking but it was impossible for him to know for sure. He looked at an online diagram, and charged me 30 bucks (1/2 hr labor) and adjusted them.

Later, he said they were not up-to-spec, but it was a no-brainer to adjust them. It DEFINITELY ran like a sewing machine afterwards!

The valves are terribly easy to adjust on our GZ's. With a tiny bit of knowledge and a generous heaping of diligence, anybody can do it. (the only reason I didnt is because I wanted maint. records!)

Ride safe

Easy Rider

03-02-2009, 04:32 PM

The valves are terribly easy to adjust on our GZ's.

I beleive that is true of some people....even many people maybe but certainly not ALL.

Remember, if you would, that we have riders show up here ALL the time that can't figure out how to adjust the rear brake, check the slack in the clutch cable, adjust the position of the brake pedal/shifter lever or find the proper bolt to drain the oil !!!! :biggrin:

Adjusting the valves is a couple of orders of magnitude more difficult than those things. :tup:

Joho

03-02-2009, 09:24 PM

Adjusting the valves is a couple of orders of magnitude more difficult than those things. :tup:

Touche!

Let the record note, that "The valves are terribly easy to adjust on our GZ's, compared to other bikes.

:neener:

burkbuilds

05-01-2009, 09:57 PM

I paid the local dealer to do it for me the first time out, they charged about $75 which wasn't bad, and they did a good job. A few weeks ago I mentioned to my friend Jim that I needed to have this done again since it had been 6 months and 6,000 miles since the dealer adjusted them. Jim told me to bring the bike to his house and he'd teach me how to do it. I jumped at the chance since Jim worked (rode) for Suzuki for years in the 70's, taught at a motorcycle mechanics school for several years and was the service manager for my local Suzuki dealer a few years ago. He talked me through it and checked behind me to make sure I was setting the valves correctly, it was great to have someone there to confirm that I had it right, or show me why it wasn't! He had me set them at the "mid point" in the specs, Intake 5mm Exhaust 10mm. I really appreciated his help because I'm not sure that I would have done it correctly on my own. Sometimes the printed words can only take you so far and then somebody has to pull a feeler guage through and tell you "that's what it should feel like". Jim describes the correct amount of resistance as "magnetic drag". It's a feel, and it took me a couple of tries before I understood if I had it to loose or to tight, not really sure how you can put that in print so there's no confusion about what you should end up with. I'm very thankful for a good friend who knew what he was doing and was willing to teach me!

Canuck

08-24-2009, 02:52 PM

in response to burksbuilds...

I am totally baffled with the feeler gauge section of the valve adjustment...
i dont know and cannot find the solution..

I have the feeler gauges and everything is set for adjustment..

how do i position these things to find out how loose or tight the valves are...

YARR!!!

Easy Rider

08-24-2009, 03:07 PM

......and everything is set for adjustment..

how do i position these things to find out how loose or tight the valves are...

Well not quite "everything", it would seem !! :roll: :biggrin:

You see which is the largest one you can slip into the space between the top of the valve stem and the bottom of the rocker arm adjustment screw (the thing that pushes on the valve stem) without binding.

You DO have to bend them a bit to get the right angle.

Canuck

08-24-2009, 04:56 PM

YES!!! i just finished my first Valve Adjust at .003 and .003 for both sides

sounds good . idols great. rides great

BTW i used the how to guide on the website and Dans Motorcycle Valve adjustment help

BTW (2)......did i even need to buy the .004-.005 Feeler Gauges???

Easy Rider

08-24-2009, 06:17 PM

BTW (2)......did i even need to buy the .004-.005 Feeler Gauges???

They usually come as a set......and the probable answer is YES but it's too late now.

If the spec. is .003 to .005, then if you can get ANY ONE of them in but not the .006, then you did not need to do any "adjustment" in the first place.

P.S. If the spec. IS .003 to .005......why did you set them to .003 ?? The odds of them getting tighter on their own is just as great as going the other way......maybe even more.

Canuck

08-24-2009, 08:14 PM

ya know now that i think about it .... .005 on the exhaust would be better . Ill have to wait to do the whole thing over but i just have to go 4 kms to work and back for 3 days .. cant hurt to much it does still sound ok just doesn't have the acceleration... so i bunged up.. Damn..

Easy Rider

08-24-2009, 08:47 PM

ya know now that i think about it .... .005 on the exhaust would be better .

And what exactly leads you to believe that ??
A few minutes ago, it seemed that you didn't even understand what valve lash IS. :roll:

In general, more lash equals less valve opening and less performance......intake or exhaust.
I strongly suggest that you NOT putz around with it; if they are within the spec range, leave them alone.

dhgeyer

08-24-2009, 09:37 PM

I've checked/adjusted the valve clearances on several bikes, including all three that I now own. The Concours has 16 valves, and it's a full day's job to strip off all the plastic and other parts, remove the valve cover, do the valves, put RTV on parts of the valve cover and/or mating parts and the gasket, and put it all back together. The BMW can be done in an hour or so. The GZ250 in about the same time or less.
I have said before and I will say again: anyone with any mechanical ability at all would be very unlikely, in my opinion, to pay to have this job done, once they have seen it done. It's really not that hard.

The advantages to doing it yourself are:

1. Less money - the tools you need will pay for themselves in short order.

2. You don't have to deliver the bike somewhere the night before so that the engine will be dead cold, which it needs to be for this job. Unless you can pretty much walk home from the shop, you'll spend less time doing it yourself than getting the bike to the shop and getting it back again.

3. The tech at the shop will check each valve to make sure it's within spec. If it is, they will leave it alone. They make no attempt to match pairs of valves, or to set them on the loose side, on the tight side, or in the middle according to your preference. In some cases they don't touch valves that clearly should be adjusted. It's not their bike. You will be much fussier. Watching someone do it once is a big confidence builder.

I only wish Suzuki (or someone) would publish a torque spec for the locknuts on the adjusters. They are a smaller diameter screw than on bigger bikes, so I don't want to use the bigger bike's torque specs. With no specs, I don't even use a torque wrench on those nuts, relying on feel. But I'd be more comfortable with a proper spec to go by. Has anyone ever seen such a spec for this bike?

Canuck

08-25-2009, 01:15 AM

Easy,

I definetely learned my lesson on this one... however, i think the exhaust side needs to be opened up abit or SOMETHING... because the overall performance of the bikes low and mid-range are how should i say.....muffled...especially the feel of the bikes acceleration between gear changes and from a start.

I used .003 feeler gauge and slid it into the opening and felt resistance but could still move the gauge back and forth.
checked both sides of the rocker arm over and over to make sure they were tight and at .003

It had been 7500 kms since my last one so i figured with the long distance riding i had been doing all summer, it was sure to have moved out and it wasnt idoling as well as before.

am i correct at guessing i need to open it up abit at least on the intake side?? or .. what.

thanks for your patience.

Easy Rider

08-25-2009, 10:02 AM

I have said before and I will say again: anyone with any mechanical ability at all would be very unlikely, in my opinion, to pay to have this job done, once they have seen it done. It's really not that hard.

YMMV! :cool:

I used to do all my own plumbing, electrical, furnace, carpentry and car/truck repairs.
It was interesting and, for a long time, I needed to save all the $$$ I could.
Now....different story. I no longer find that stuff "interesting" and, thankfully, now can afford to spend some of that money I saved over the last 50 years or so to have someone else do it.

That assumes, however, that you have a competent shop to do the work. I may change my mind when it comes to the bike because my local shop seems to be able to screw up even the simplest of tasks. Last week, they replaced a drain plug the was perfectly good and overlooked the one that was missing. About the only thing they have done right is..........adjusting the valves (OK, I'm assuming......since it has much less vibration than before, performs about the same and has no new noises.)

I found the VLX seat to be better than the GZ stock but upgraded to a Mustang anyway. It is better but not sure it's worth the price. When your butt is old and brittle, the small tank is not a drawback; it will go 2 hours between gas stops.......which is longer than my backside will.

After a short adjustment period, I find that I really like the 4 speed; much less time screwing around shifting up and down to keep it in a useable power band. About the only thing I don't like with the little Shadow is a WIDE turning radius; there are times when I need to back up to start a U turn. Did I mention it LOOKS really cool !! :roll:

Canuck

08-29-2009, 10:22 AM

I would like to know if your motorcycle maintenance expert sets the valves both the same.

IN. : 0.03-0.08 mm (0.001-0.003 in)..................003
EX.: 0.08-0.13 mm (0.003-0.005 in) ..................003

Some mowers use the same setting for intake and exhaust.

EASY this is where i got the "bright" idea to set them both to .003 why i did this i have no clue.. HAH!

anyways... I have the day off of tree-planting so I'm gonna "putz" around with the exhaust side and do a check on the intake valves to make sure everything is tip-top.

thanks again