Cramps between the shoulder blades below the neck...

[alanmcorcoran]

This was an old problem I had when doing 60+ mile rides on the bicycle. Basically, after about 4 hours elapsed time on a ride, the muscles that hold up my head (upper middle of the back, below the neck, between the shoulder blades) are tightened up and the ride starts to become a lot less fun. I've read some other posts around on the Internet, and there is much discussion of either relaxing one's grip (not exactly instinctual if you are battling the wind at 75+ on the superslab) or swapping out one's handlebars (probably not going to happen.)

Some suggest it's the helmet (actually, a good possibility! The bicycle position is more "flat back" and even though a bike helmet is very light, it adds to the load.) Others recommend a Mustang seat (one new way my head is apparently connected to my ass.)

Does anyone know of any "on-the-bike-as-you-are-riding" stretches, tricks or exercises I can do to reduce the mid-upper back lockup? I've improvised a few (sort of a slow-mo chicken dance with an elbow tuck), and, while they probably have increased circulation and reduced cramping, the basic stiffness returns pretty quickly.

[mrlmd1]

I can't see how the helmet would cause your back and neck muscles to cramp up. When you are riding as fast as you go, even with a windshield, in your relatively upright position, the air hitting your helmet is trying to force your head backwards, not adding weight causing it to bend forwards and straining your back. Are you in some kind of weird position, trying to bend forward and tuck underneath the windshield? Maybe that's what's doing it. Otherwise, you are probably holding on to the bike with a tight death grip, your whole upper body all tensed up.

[Water Warrior 2]

You might need a backrest. Experiment with a big bag of stuff bungeed to the passenger seat area and lean back a little. If that helps I am sure there will be an aftermarket item that will just bolt on. Lynda really likes her backrest/trunk on the GZ and the M 50 will be getting a backrest this summer.

[music man]

I can't see how the helmet would cause your back and neck muscles to cramp up. When you are riding as fast as you go, even with a windshield, in your relatively upright position, the air hitting your helmet is trying to force your head backwards, not adding weight causing it to bend forwards and straining your back. Are you in some kind of weird position, trying to bend forward and tuck underneath the windshield? Maybe that's what's doing it. Otherwise, you are probably holding on to the bike with a tight death grip, your whole upper body all tensed up.


Because your neck is only accustomed to holding up your melon, not a (however much it weighs)helmet and your head(however much it weighs :tongue: ).

[Easy Rider]

(not exactly instinctual if you are battling the wind at 75+ on the superslab)

Others recommend a Mustang seat (one new way my head is apparently connected to my ass.)

the basic stiffness returns pretty quickly.

I thought the Liner had a windshield.
If it doesn't, it should have......maybe a larger one.
You should NOT be "battling the wind" at any speed.

Your "basic stiffness" indicates a continuous strain to a place that there shouldn't be.
Might be the neck/helmet; try rotating/twisting your neck.
A replacement seat usually is for a pain MUCH lower than you describe.

[mrlmd1]

Excuse me guys, but there are NO muscles below the neck, upper middle of the back, between the shoulder blades, that hold up the neck.
Alan- You are tensing up the muscles you use between your scapulas (shoulder blades) and are doing rowing-type excersizes by the pain you describe, not the posterior extensor muscles in your neck. Your handlebars may be too far back or you are gripping them too tightly and unconsciously pulling them backward.
Or you are trying to assume a position which is unnatural and requires your muscular effort to maintain, which you don't realize while you are trying to drive and not hit anything or skid out.

And Music Man-"Because your neck is only accustomed to holding up your melon, not a (however much it weighs)helmet and your head(however much it weighs"- is wrong. Upright, the little weight of a helmet would press DOWN, not forward to bend the neck unless you were leaning forward, and then your NECK muscles would hurt, not those in your upper back between your shoulder blades - ( = different muscles). And like I said, unless you are trying to hide from the wind by bending forward and ducking down behind the windshield, the air hitting your helmet would be forcing it backwards, not forwards, and would not give pain or cramping between the shoulder blades. And he had this problem on the bicycle, without the motorcycle helmet on. How much does a bike helmet weigh? A half pound? A full pound?
Alan - try and be aware or your body position on the bike (Strat) and alter it so you are not in the position that causes the pain. Either put up with the wind noise, or like Easy said, get a bigger windshield and sit more upright. Do you have the same pain riding the GZ? I bet not. Different body positioning and posture.

[alanmcorcoran]

I get the same thing on the GZ and the bicycle before that. I sit relatively upright, but not completely. It's a big bike and the handle bars are pretty forward.

There IS a windshield, but it's smaller than the one on my GZ. No hand protection and the wind buffets around the helmet. It's quite a bit more forward than the GZ shield, with an aggressive rake. It's not the greatest windshield but it's all integrated into the bike. Maybe there is a larger one that fits the quick release system.

I am conscious of somewhat of a deathgrip, but, the Strat requires a little more muscle to hold the throttle open. There is room for some relaxing there.

And mrlmd, I know you are a doctor and all, but there ARE muscles in the area I describe and they DO hold up your HEAD. If you have ever ridden a road bicycle for more than a few hours, you would be acutely aware of them.

[mrlmd1]

I think you are using those between your shoulder blades to support or hold up your upper body/chest, and not your head per se.

[alanmcorcoran]

Nope. Did some Internet searching because I remembered a guy that attached a bungee cord from his helmet to his bike shorts to hold... up... his... head - to finish a Ride Across America. Turns out, there is a name for this.

http://www.ultracycling.com/training/neck_pain.html

A Pain in the Neck
Shermer's Neck
Many cases of Shermer's Neck were observed at the end of Paris-Brest-Paris '03; this can affect any long-distance cyclist.

By Walter Libby, LMT and Sue Morris, LMT
Sue Morris of Corvallis, OR, crewed for Team VeloWear's mixed two person RAAM team in 2004. She employed a unique version of massage to successfully counter the effects of 3,000 miles of unrelenting abuse. Contact Morrris at sue97330@hotmail.com and Libby at (541) 517-7812.


As you near the 300-mile mark of your long anticipated race all systems appear, go! Your legs feel strong, your breathing is controlled and your energy is good. There's just this little twinge in the back of your neck... An hour later your legs still feel ready for another couple thousand miles, but your head feels like a bowling ball and the best you can do is stare down at your front wheel. Meet Shermer's Neck!

Michael Shermer grudgingly gave his name to this malady during the 1983 RAAM on his approach to Harrier, IL, nearly 2,000 miles into the race. His head felt heavy and the back of his neck was increasingly sore. He described it as, "a quick melt down." His head dropped, making it impossible for him to look up. Cradling his chin in the palm of one hand with his elbow on the padding of his aerobars, he supported his head well enough to finish the race. Despite excruciating pain during the event, his neck was back to normal within two days.

In the 21 years since Shermer experienced the first reported case of Shermer's Neck, countless other ultra-cyclists have had the same problem. Shermer's Neck typically starts between 300 and 1,000 miles into the race. In all cases the onset is sudden. From the time of first pain and weakness, the neck usually gives out within two to three hours. Symptoms always start in the back of the neck. The head feels heavy and the cyclist can't look up without assistance from a mechanical device. Once a cyclist gets Shermer's Neck, it is unlikely to leave for the remainder of the race.

[Easy Rider]

I get the same thing on the GZ and the bicycle before that. I sit relatively upright, but not completely. It's a big bike and the handle bars are pretty forward.

I am conscious of somewhat of a deathgrip, but, the Strat requires a little more muscle to hold the throttle open. There is room for some relaxing there.



Guess I need to go look at your 'Liner pictures again but I suspect that the bars can be loosend easily and "pulled back" a bit without upsetting anything else......except maybe the mirrors. I know the GZ can (but levers and mirrors need adjustment). That may or may not help. Do your arms tend to be bent slightly (good) or straight and stiff (bad) ??

Edit: Just saw one picture and it looks like the bars are WAY WIDE, in addition to being kind of forward. This is almost as dumb as putting drag bars on a cruiser. I would probably have an S40 by now if it wasn't for that little bit of stupidity.

For the death grip, a LOT of people swear by the Throttle Rocker....some even for the left side too. Of course, I use the 75 cent cruise control (throttle lock) and am quite comfortable taking BOTH hands off the bars to adjust jacket, helmet, etc. or to stretch a bit as the need arises.......if the road is smooth and straight.

I keep coming back to your comment about fighting the wind. Do you really have that feeling ??

[alanmcorcoran]

There's a lot of wind on the freeway, mostly self generated, some natural. It comes around the shield at a steady clip - not full on in your face, but all around the helmet, and there is a constant mini-buffeting of the head that goes on. I find myself clenching my jaw sometimes. I think maybe the windshield is too far away. I did try tucking up under it, and it's a lot less turbulent there, but it's kind of a bad position (sort of half cruiser, half sport bike), so I didn't do it for very long.

I tend to vary my position, mostly from straight up back to slouch. Sometimes I hunch forward and put more weight on my arms, esp for gnarly twisties where I need to be aggressive on the countersteeering and flipping the lean. Sometimes I sit way back on the seat, Sometimes I grip the tank with my knees, other times I transfer weight to my feet (have the floor boards.) I don't think I'm stiff arming it, but I'll pay more attention next time I'm out. I do think my head is a little forward, I am probably leaning forward more than sitting back.

[Moedad]

I met Mike Shermer in Solvang once when I was there for the Solvang Century. I used to get the same pain in the neck/upper shoulder blades you're talking about on long rides too. I would stretch my muscles by tucking my chin down to my chest (when I had a clear road ahead). I haven't experienced any neck pain yet on either motorcycle. Then again, I haven't done anything over two hundred miles yet either. Gotta fix that.

Went for a Santiago Canyon run at dusk tonight on the Nighthawk. That was nice.

Nope. Did some Internet searching because I remembered a guy that attached a bungee cord from his helmet to his bike shorts to hold... up... his... head - to finish a Ride Across America. Turns out, there is a name for this.

http://www.ultracycling.com/training/neck_pain.html

A Pain in the Neck
Shermer's Neck
Many cases of Shermer's Neck were observed at the end of Paris-Brest-Paris '03; this can affect any long-distance cyclist.

By Walter Libby, LMT and Sue Morris, LMT
Sue Morris of Corvallis, OR, crewed for Team VeloWear's mixed two person RAAM team in 2004. She employed a unique version of massage to successfully counter the effects of 3,000 miles of unrelenting abuse. Contact Morrris at sue97330@hotmail.com and Libby at (541) 517-7812.


As you near the 300-mile mark of your long anticipated race all systems appear, go! Your legs feel strong, your breathing is controlled and your energy is good. There's just this little twinge in the back of your neck... An hour later your legs still feel ready for another couple thousand miles, but your head feels like a bowling ball and the best you can do is stare down at your front wheel. Meet Shermer's Neck!

Michael Shermer grudgingly gave his name to this malady during the 1983 RAAM on his approach to Harrier, IL, nearly 2,000 miles into the race. His head felt heavy and the back of his neck was increasingly sore. He described it as, "a quick melt down." His head dropped, making it impossible for him to look up. Cradling his chin in the palm of one hand with his elbow on the padding of his aerobars, he supported his head well enough to finish the race. Despite excruciating pain during the event, his neck was back to normal within two days.

In the 21 years since Shermer experienced the first reported case of Shermer's Neck, countless other ultra-cyclists have had the same problem. Shermer's Neck typically starts between 300 and 1,000 miles into the race. In all cases the onset is sudden. From the time of first pain and weakness, the neck usually gives out within two to three hours. Symptoms always start in the back of the neck. The head feels heavy and the cyclist can't look up without assistance from a mechanical device. Once a cyclist gets Shermer's Neck, it is unlikely to leave for the remainder of the race.

[music man]

I thought we were talking about the neck hurting, but now I went back and read it and realized that he said back and neck. :oops:

But My original point still remains, yes a motorcycle helmet might not weigh much (I think mine weighs 2-3 pounds but the actual weight is really a moot point) but a 2-3 pound helmet (or less for sake of argument) after a 2-3 hour motorcycle ride will feel like a 20 pound weight driving into your neck and yes your shoulders, and you can do the math for a longer ride (it doesn't get lighter feeling again, trust me).

[mrlmd1]

Alan - Shermer's neck is NECK pain, not between the shoulder blades as you describe. Look at the pictures in that article and you'll see the posterior NECK muscles. That pain comes from being bent over forward, with those neck muscles then having to support the weight of the head and keeping the neck from flexing forward from the weight. Like the support cables in a construction crane that raise and lower the angle of the main beam that picks up the weight. That's totally different than what you describe, pain between the shoulder blades. Those are different muscles. It's like true/true, and unrelated.
Somehow you are in a position tensing your rhomboid and trapezius muscles - look them up on Google or Wikepedia. They attach between the shoulder blades and your vertebral column. Those are what is cramping up in you, NOT your neck, not Shermer's either.
I don't want to argue with you about this, but I do know more of this than you do. So listen and learn as I'm trying to help solve your problem, or do and believe what you want. You say you are sitting relatively upright, but not completely, and that you do lean forward, and do tuck under the shield. That's it, right there. Your trapezius is supporting and suspending your back which means it is supporting your upper body weight. If you stay in that position for hours, that muscle starts to hurt, it's not in your neck. OK? Change your posture to more upright, it'll go away. Stay like that for hours at a time, it'll hurt. Very simple. You may have to sit forward more, move your bars back, and stop leaning forward on the bike. Also with wide bars you may be using those 2 upper back muscles to hang on with and to steer with instead of your arm muscles. It's all ergonomics.
Just my free medical advice, yours to do with what you want.

[alanmcorcoran]

I only tucked under the shield for a minute or so, to see what it felt like wind wise.

But the rest of the time, I am leaning forward a bit. Sometimes more so than others. Given the geometry of the bike, I am not sure I can consistently sit straight up. But I can certainly give it a try next time out.

I think I know what my traps are (I work them out with dumbbell shrugs, right? And, for the record, my traps are A) awesome, and B) not what I think hurts.) I looked up rhomboids on Wikipedia (and they sort of look like a continuation of traps...WTF?) but, those DO look like the problem area.

Also, I do appreciate (and listen to) the advice, but you should realize that when a patient argues with you, it's not because we think we know more than you, it's becuase we think you haven't correctly diagnosed our problem. I understand that you have a lot more knowledge in this area, but you will never know my body and my aches and pains as well as I do. I'm not lumping you in with other experiences I've had with doctors, but I will say about half the medical advice I've been given and followed actually has made matters worse, sometimes drastically so. Typically, my worse experiences have resulted from taking a pill instead of focusing on what caused my pain in the first place. (So I'm glad you did not recommend I pop a few Advil!)

Originally, my assumption is that my (rhomboids?) are too weak and perhaps I could strengthen them. Maybe that is not possible or practical. I will see if I can alter my position on the bike (I also suffer a bit from habit - 15 years of "flat back" positioning on the bicycle - a position akin to laying on the gas tank and cranking your head out straight - guess I have to get away from anything remotely close to that now that I'm not using my legs to make the thing go.)

Anybody using ape bars?

[alanmcorcoran]

I met Mike Shermer in Solvang once when I was there for the Solvang Century. I used to get the same pain in the neck/upper shoulder blades you're talking about on long rides too. I would stretch my muscles by tucking my chin down to my chest (when I had a clear road ahead). I haven't experienced any neck pain yet on either motorcycle. Then again, I haven't done anything over two hundred miles yet either. Gotta fix that.


Thanks Moe - you get the prize for the first person to actually answer my original question! In addition to sitting more upright, I will try to do the chin tuck (guess I'll have to do it quick, or while I am eating a nutritious McDonald's Big and Tasty Meal.)

FYI - I typically start to get the cramps at about 200 miles. As a former century (and one double century!) rider, (plus three marathons) I've gotten used to enduring non-fatal discomfort for lots of hours on the road. Thought I might be giving that up though with the motor and everything. Good news is, the worst motorcycle seat is like a feather bed compared to the best bicycle seat.

Mr. OCHoosier was a great riding companion, a wonderful person (and not bad looking either!) The three of us need to hook up with "Crazy Legs" BusyWeb and get into some real trouble out there! (We all have migrated to non-GZ's too!)

[mrlmd1]

Well good, now at least we're on the same page or chapter in the anatomy book. Like before this you were dealing with rough idling by adjusting the thermostat. (Just kidding (?)), Now if you know where the problem comes from, you may be able to solve it. Maybe just get off the bike at 198 miles and walk around for 5 min to loosen up.

[Sarris]

Make sure you're not gorilla gripping the bars while riding. It's an easy habit to get into that'll give you a pain every time. Relax while riding. I also rotated my bars forward on both bikes slightly. This position stretches you out a bit more and gets the bars out of your lap. (the most common "stock" cruiser setting)

:)

[Easy Rider]

Anybody using ape bars?

Nobody but YOU! :cry:

The more you talk, the more I think that might be contributing to the problem.

Yours aren't monkey tall but sure do look monkey WIDE.
Maybe you just need to S T R E T C H your arms a bit. :roll:

[Moedad]

In addition to sitting more upright, I will try to do the chin tuck...FYI - I typically start to get the cramps at about 200 miles. As a former century (and one double century!) rider, (plus three marathons) I've gotten used to enduring non-fatal discomfort for lots of hours on the road. Thought I might be giving that up though with the motor and everything. Good news is, the worst motorcycle seat is like a feather bed compared to the best bicycle seat.

I trained for aand rode in a number of centuries, and I know exactly what you're talking about, neck-wise and seat wise. I used reach up and put a hand on the back of my helmet and physically bend my head down to stretch my muscles better. It helped most when I'd let go of the bars and sit up straight and do it, but that wasn't always practical. For me the cramping was a "V" with the point being mostly centered between my shoulder blades and the arms extending up to each side of the base of my neck. It was something that a part of every long ride, like standing on the pedals to give my butt a break. As far motorcycle seats vs. bicycle seats, I can't ever imagine 8 hours on a motorcycle seat would come anywhere close to 8 hours on a bicycle seat as far as pain goes, not to mention the occasional inverted penis.

Mr. OCHoosier was a great riding companion, a wonderful person (and not bad looking either!) The three of us need to hook up with "Crazy Legs" BusyWeb and get into some real trouble out there! (We all have migrated to non-GZ's too!)

Let's do it!

[Sarris]

Two words. Mustang seat. I've had one on almost every bike I've owned.

Kinda hard and police looking, but four hours in the saddle is no problem. IMHO, they're the best.

The Mustang will keep you from being :crutches:

Also, as I said, rotate your handlebar so you are sitting more upright with a neutral posture and no weight forward.

:)

[patrick_777]

Okay. There's a lot in this thread already, but I haven't seen anyone actually answer Alan's question in the middle (unless I missed it) - Are there any stretches or exercises you can do during a ride that will lessen this problem?

A "solution" I've been meaning to post about but haven't had the time lately is grip and stress in the shoulders and arms. The tighter your arms are flexed, the more road feel is going to be translated directly to your core. This actually will decrease your feel on the bars and your reaction time accordingly. The idea is to be as flexible in the shoulders/arms and wrists as possible, while gripping only with your fingers and palms onto the grips.

The problem some people have, is they think they control the bike better by literally pushing both hands onto the bars (tensing everything forward) where they get every little bump directly into their wrists. This is bad. BAD. Once you have vibration, both from the engine and the road (thru the forks) into your wrists for more than a few minutes, your nerves that detect that motion basically power down and ignore it. This will significantly decrease what you feel from the bike, but since you're tensing your muscles (nearly all of them), you're going to be tired and sore a lot quicker.

The best way I've found (and read elsewhere) to help this on a ride, is to think about the "chicken dance". If you realize that your arms are tense and you are losing some feeling in your thumbs and fingers, you need to loosen up your hands by only gripping the handlebars with the front joint of your fingers. Then you basically "flap" your arms at the elbow, like you're doing the "chicken dance" minus the thumbs in the armpits. This will automatically make you untense your back and shoulder muscles and you'll immediately feel the motorcycle again. By keeping your elbows slacked, you refocus your energy onto your hands, which separates the different vibrations and motions of the bike to two different inputs on your body (hands and seat) where they should be.

Your hands/arms need to ONLY control keeping the motorcycle in a straight line. Remember also, that the cycle will automatically drive straight, as long as there's ABSOLUTELY no input on the handlebars and sufficient speed to keep upright (>5mph). If you're pushing on both grips, you are inputting way too much into the forks and therefore fighting the motorcycle's own physical nature of keeping upright and straight.

If you have to turn at over 12-14 mph, then countersteer the bike by pushing in the direction of the turn. Try not to pull at the same time on the other side. Some people will say you should do this because they hear that Rossi does it on the track. Don't. You're not on a track at 160 mph.

Remember to flap your elbows to loosen up your grip. Think of it like you're running with a glass of water. Let your arms act like a gyromount to dampen the stress coming in from your hands. Keep them loose to keep that vibration from getting into your back and shoulders so those muscles can do what they are meant to do - holding you upright in your seat.

"Do the Chicken Dance" while on your ride. You'll thank me later.

[alanmcorcoran]

Well, two mentions of the chicken dance in this thread can't be mere coincidence! Thanks Patrick. I hope I can remember all of this for my next long ride.