Pushing on the pegs to help you lean

[Jer]

Over the last 100 miles or so (I'm about 600 into my motorcyle career) I've been learning the fine art of pushing down on your foot pegs to start the bike leaning. Until I started doing this I did what I imagine a lot of new riders do, and thats shift your weight higher up.

Pushing down on the right peg when leaning right, left when leaning left, really makes a big difference in your leaning turns.

[Easy Rider]

Pushing down on the right peg when leaning right, left when leaning left, really makes a big difference in your leaning turns.

It's all about weight transfer, or more correctly, shifting the center of mass. Exactly HOW you accomplish that makes no difference functionally; the best way for YOU is the way you feel most comfortable.

Consiously leaning your body into a turn is the most drastic way to shift weight.
Other, less drastic methods REALLY shift your body mass too......just a LOT less and the result in more subtle. "Pressing down" on the peg is one way. Pushing on the tank with your outside knee is another. If, however, you could manage to do either of those WITHOUT shifting any of your body mass at the same time, it would accomplish exactly nothing. :)

Racers actually put most of their weight on the OUTSIDE peg.......to kind of balance the effect of shifting your ass off to the inside. :biggrin:

[Water Warrior 2]

Pushing down on the right peg when leaning right, left when leaning left, really makes a big difference in your leaning turns.

It's all about weight transfer, or more correctly, shifting the center of mass. Exactly HOW you accomplish that makes no difference functionally; the best way for YOU is the way you feel most comfortable.

Consiously leaning your body into a turn is the most drastic way to shift weight.
Other, less drastic methods REALLY shift your body mass too......just a LOT less and the result in more subtle. "Pressing down" on the peg is one way. Pushing on the tank with your outside knee is another. If, however, you could manage to do either of those WITHOUT shifting any of your body mass at the same time, it would accomplish exactly nothing. :)

Racers actually put most of their weight on the OUTSIDE peg.......to kind of balance the effect of shifting your ass off to the inside. :biggrin:

The best way to set up for a curve/lean is to push on the handle bar. Push on the right side slightly for a right curve/lean and the left side for a left curve/lean. Sounds counter intuitive but does work. Racers will load the outside peg which allows the bike to be more upright at a given speed which translates into higher speeds when fully leaned over. Proficient Motorcycling (get a copy if you haven't already) goes into great explanation of push steering(also known as counter steering).

[Jer]

yep. I'm familiar with counter steering. That comes just before leaning on the peg for me. Push right, bike starts to tip right, weight on right peg to help it go.

[patrick_777]

I find that pushing the inside peg actually shifts body weight to the outside of the bike, which is counterproductive to the natural lean in the turn. Very much like what WW and EZ said, at countersteering speeds (12+mph generally), weight transfer needs to be to the inside of the turn. There's a fine line between setting your weight over the inside peg and actively pushing the peg toward the ground (or standing on it). The same principle that makes countersteering, counter-intuitive is that to do one thing, you have to technically do the opposite of what would be "normal" (ie: turn the bars left to turn right, push on the outside peg to weight your inside peg, etc.)

Now, most of this technique is more suited to sport and standard riding, of which riding the GZ is neither. Unless you're able to get most of your weight off the seat, then weight shifting should occur mainly with your waist and upper torso. Keeping your butt firmly planted on the seat, you can have better technique with a shoulder drop and grip push toward the turn, letting your back stay parallel to the vertical line of the bike throughout the turn. It helps to shift your neck and head a little to the inside ("peeking around the handlebars"), and keeping your eyes mostly level with the actual horizon, that way your brain isn't confused with the conflicting inputs from your eyes and inner ear (balance).

[Jer]

when I say push on the right side peg, I dont mean push on it to launch my weight to the left. I mean push down on it to bring my weight to the right.

Just after countersteering left to tip the bike right.

Regardless if I am able to communicate it to you guys, its working.

:)

[roncg41677]

I've found on gentler curves trying to push the handlebars right or left to countersteer almost isn't worth the effort. Maybe I'm doing it a little, but it really feels more natural to just lean the bike a bit. That may just be me.

On shorter radius turns I'm definitely employing the "press left", "press right" technique. That was one of the most valuable things I learned at the BRC course. :2tup: I'll have to try what you're suggesting, Jer.

[Jer]

An example of where I notice it helps is longer shallow turns.

I find that I tend to drift to the outside. In reality all I'm doing is transferring weight and leaning more I'm sure, but conciously pressing down on the inside footpeg tightens up the turn and I dont drift to the outside any more.

[Moedad]

I turn.

[Jer]

Me too!

Keeps me from hitting things.

[roncg41677]

I turn.

U turn?

[Magnar Infectus]

I turn.

U turn?
We all turn?

[Jer]

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !

[5th_bike]

There are many ways to go through a curve in the road. You can lean with the bike; or just your upper body can lean over, and you keep the bike straight up; or you can stay upright and have just the bike lean; and everything in between, whatever makes you go through the curve.

One thing I read about before starting to ride, and specifically DON'T do now I'm on the road, is "doing the curve with the apex" i.e. to make a curve to the left: start at the right side of your lane, halfway the curve you're at the left side of the lane (the 'apex'), and coming out of the curve you're at the right side of the lane again.
This is only good for race tracks, and not for real roads. I don't want to twice cross the oil drip zone in the middle of the lane when leaning through a curve, nor do I want to be in the decapitation zone at the apex, therefore I make 'apexless curves' in the right track of the lane. For right turns too, because many a time when going through a curve to the right, I meet idiots in cages who think that they own the road and they can move their car over the double yellow line like, two feet, no problem.

Oops, going off-topic, I never really thought about putting most of the weight on one peg consciously, will try. Thank you.

[Jer]

Oh man do I agree with that.

You read about how you shoud be in the tire trenches for best traction and cleanliness of road.

Then later you read something telling you to cross the ENTIRE width of the lane, in a turn no less, then doing it again coming out of the turn.

WTF????

No thanks.

[mrlmd1]

All this obviously depends on the radius of the turn and the speed you are taking it as well as the visibility around the turn. Also dirt, gravel, any road hazards that may pop up. The idea of turning through the apex is to steer the staightest line around the curve.

[alanmcorcoran]

For right turns too, because many a time when going through a curve to the right, I meet idiots in cages who think that they own the road and they can move their car over the double yellow line like, two feet, no problem.


Most experts on the topic recommend a slightly delayed apex which actually helps a bit to alleviate this problem. If you follow the "outside, inside, outside" you'll at least be starting on the outside which is where the cars are going to be coming over the line (to your inside.) Also, by starting on the outside you increae your visibility of the turn.

Finally, if you are at speed, I think the bike is not going to turn if it is straight up. You can turn it with the handlebars at low speed, but that doesn't work onve there are centrifugal forces. Whether it's leaned by countersteering, "pressing" on the handlebars, "pressing" on the pegs, etc. all of these result in the bike leaning. The more you can lean it without it slipping out or falling over, the tighter your turn. Given that the tires on the GZ are on the skinny side, I wouldn't get crazy trying to emulate racers. I am a pretty conservative rider and I've already experience the front starting to slide out.

As a beginner myself, I have two recommendations: 1) Watch your speed. 2) If you ignore #1 and get into a curve a little hotter than you would like, try to train your brain to look ahead and lean the bike more, rather than looking down, giving up and heading off the road. You can practice this by using your imagination. Try to develop an "Oh boy I gotta lean more and look ahead" instinct just like the "Oh boy, I gotta really squeeze and pedal" instinct for a quick/panic stop. Most of the time, the curve is well within the slip range of the bike, but the panic reaction is to look down, keep the bike upright (and head off the road.)

[Easy Rider]

I've found on gentler curves trying to push the handlebars right or left to countersteer almost isn't worth the effort. Maybe I'm doing it a little, but it really feels more natural to just lean the bike a bit. That may just be me.


No, it's not just you! :)

To revise and extend my previous remarks:
What really causes the bike to turn is LEAN.
Two basic things cause the bike to lean: Weight transfer to the inside and/or countersteering.

On the GZ, I find (compared to ALL the other bikes I have ridden) that countersteering makes the bike turn quickly and a LOT. Weight transfer, OTOH, can be used for smaller and smoother turns.

For the first few hundred miles on the GZ, I found that I was over-steering in most situations; that is, turning too much. I was able to correct that by using the bars LESS and subtle weight shifts MORE.

If you have never ridden a bike that really REALLY wants to keep going in a straight line, you won't fully appreciate the difference.

[mr. softie]

If I am in a high speed turn and the bike is really leaned over, (so much so that my foot/peg is touching the road), and I am in danger of going wide, I just lean my upper body to the inside. This tightens my radius as well as standing the bike up a little. I also weight the outside peg a bit in that situation.

At very slow speeds weighting the outside peg in a turn also helps, as does using the rear brake and throttle together to help stabilize the bike. Motorcycling is a really a whole body activity.

[Easy Rider]

If I am in a high speed turn and the bike is really leaned over, (so much so that my foot/peg is touching the road), and I am in danger of going wide, I just lean my upper body to the inside. This tightens my radius as well as standing the bike up a little. I also weight the outside peg a bit in that situation.


Yes but that begs the question: Why did you end up that way in the first place ??

The LAST thing that should lean at an extreme angle is the bike. The objective is to keep the bike as upright as possible at all times. That means leaning your upper body first instead of last. :)

I had a problem with that for maybe 15 years of my riding life and it is a hard habit to break. I still find myself with body upright and bike leaned sometimes. :cry:

(With a top speed of ~70 mph, it really isn't THAT much of a problem though!) :biggrin:

[mr. softie]

I didn't mean to imply I ride around with the bike leaned over and my upper body straight up! :lol:

I scrape my pegs a lot more on the GZ than I ever did on any of my other bikes. Actually my boot heel touches first! That reminds me to start leaning more with my body real quick. I never owned a cruiser style before. I think the pegs are just real close to the ground on this bike. That and there are a lot of tight twisty hilly roads around here. :2tup:

[dhgeyer]

My opinion is that learning to turn by leaning your body, or by putting weight on a peg, is forming a very bad habit. While either of these techniques will work on a light bike, they will have very little effect if any on a heavier machine. A lot of people get killed because they migrate from a small bike to a very large one (like that Harley they always wanted) and can't steer the bigger bike. They hit a curve and run off the road or into a guardrail. It happens all the time, and in most cases it's because they don't fundamentally understand how a motorcycle is controlled.

Countersteering is how a motorcycle is controlled at riding speeds. Period. Yes, it's easy to oversteer the GZ, but learning improper technique is not the answer.

Leaning does have its place. Racers lean into a turn so that the bike can turn more sharply with less lean. Not a technique most of us should need, I hope. Doing very tight maneuvers at slow speeds you do essentially the opposite, so as to get the bike to lean more and still keep overall balance. This is taught in the MSF Basic Rider Course. That technique is useful, but only if you're trying to do a U-turn on a narrow street, or practicing tight turns in a parking lot at very slow speeds.

For normal riding situations, learn to countersteer and rely on that totally. When/if you move to a heavier bike, you will be able to control it.

There is a lot written about the proper path of travel through a turn/curve. MSF teaches outside-inside-outside path of travel, and this is the conventional wisdom. Racers do this if you watch races at all. David Hough in his writings advocates a delayed apex in order to avoid running wide if the curve runs longer than expected.

I have tried for years to make this technique work for me on the road, with, I must admit, limited success. I have pretty much abandoned this bit of conventional wisdom, for several reasons.

1. The basic reason for doing this is to gain a traction advantage, so as to avoid sliding out at a given speed. Or, from a racer's point of view, to maximize the speed at which one can get through a turn. I don't race. There is no need for this technique if one enters a curve at a sensible speed. And by that I mean a speed at which you can slow down or stop if the radius of the curve changes, or if there is an unexpected road or traffic hazard. To me, a curve isn't any different than a straight line in one respect: don't outdrive the distance you can see the road surface and react.

2. Unlike the race course, curves on a road, at least an unfamiliar road, are an unknown quantity. You are completely guessing how far the curve is going to go, and therefor how much to delay the apex. After a while it just gets silly to try.

3. On a left hand curve, particularly a blind left hand curve, the outside-inside-outside path of travel puts you near the centerline, right at the point where an oncoming driver, if said driver misjudged and is running wide, will kill you.

4. In the real world, any speed/traction advantage the outside-inside-outside path gives you is more often than not outweighed by other factors, such as variations in road condition, camber, blind hills, oncoming traffic, and so on.

I do believe that entering a turn/curve cautiously, from the outside (for visibility) is the best approach. After that, I pay more attention to where I want to be in my lane for other reasons.

[alanmcorcoran]

Mr. Geyer,

I enjoyed reading your post. I must admit I'm not comfortable agreeing with someone that takes issue with David Hough, but I think your observations re countersteering agree with my experience. I am one of those people who went from a very small bike to a very large one (although, not a Harley) and, despite having my head filled with lots of info, ultimately just really went with what felt natural, and that is countersteering. In fact, I didn't realize this until recently. I used to think a lot about what I was doing, how far I was leaning, how fast I was going, where I was on the road, etc. etc. But now I devote most of my attention to looking out for road hazards, developing traffic situations and other vehicles. I really don't think about driving much at all. I make the curves, and often at far greater speeds than I did when I was "thinking" about them. It's basically like riding a bicycle except I don't have to pedal.

One other thing I have "learned" by osmosis: using the throttle to maintain centrifugal force. Or something like that. I'm not sure that is the right word, but, basically, the countersteer and lean and all the rest of it benefits from being under power. Power keeps the bike striving to stay upright. I always power out of a curve.

I enjoy riding a lot more now that it mostly just comes naturally. For what it's worth, I wasn't sure what the pushing on the pegs was really about. I have floorboards and my feet mostly just sit on them, except when I deliberately use my legs as an extension of the suspension (like going over a speed bump or a pothole.) Again, perhaps some of these techniques are appropriate for racing or expert level riding.

[Easy Rider]

My opinion is that learning to turn by leaning your body, or by putting weight on a peg, is forming a very bad habit. .

OK, without even reading the rest of your post, I have to comment on THAT statement alone.
On both points, you are in a tiny minority, so much so that I think it is safe to say you are wrong on both points.

To become a really proficient rider, you need to master ALL the options for getting the bike to go where you want it to. Shifting your weight on the pegs is not an option with a cruiser style bike but leaning certainly IS.......and it is important because the more the rider leans, the less the bike has to.

(Now to read the rest of your post and see if I need to come back and edit.) :roll:


Countersteering is how a motorcycle is controlled at riding speeds. Period.


You quote several good references later in your message; why do you think YOU know better that all the "experts" in the world ?? Clue: you don't.

You are, of course, free to experss an opinion but this "That's how it is .....PERIOD" stuff is just crap. Sorry.

[mr. softie]

Plus on a standard or sport-tour/sport bike etc moving more of your weight to the pegs lowers the the whole COG and helps suspension compliance. As for counter-steering, I like to initiate the turn with the required pressure on the inside bar-end to get the bike to the desired lean angle, and then use the throttle and some body lean (if necessary) to control my line, keeping a light neutral touch on the bars through the turn. More gas tightens the radius, less widens it. Pressure on the outside bar stands the bike back up when desired or needed. Pushing on the outside peg can help you push the inside bar when riding at high speeds in situations where you want to initiate the turn very quickly. Every turn is different, that is one of the things that make riding so much fun. With each ride our skills and enjoyment increase as we become more "at one" with our bike, and less like a fleshy lump clinging to its back for dear life.

[dhgeyer]

Yes, I did forget to say that the throttle has an effect on steering - powering on tends to straighten the bike up, slowing down tends to make the bike "dive" into the turn more. At slow speeds this is more significant and can be very important. In very tight maneuvers, adding power quickly can save you from a fall if you lean too far at too slow a speed.

I have spent a lifetime being quite comfortable disagreeing with conventional wisdom if it directly contradicts my experience. And, yes, I can be opinionated. Bear that in mind when you read what I write, as at my age I am unlikely to change. Bear in mind also that conventional wisdom is not always correct. What we all understand to be the truth changes all the time as people learn more. When I first learned to ride in the early sixties, the conventional wisdom was that if you used the front brake much at all, you would either slide out or go right over the handlebars. Needless to say, that is not the conventional wisdom anymore.

I will still say that, while other methods may have some effect, and some people can use them, the best way to control steering on a motorcycle at riding speeds, particularly a large motorcycle, is with the handlebars, and (to this extent I stand corrected), to a degree, the throttle. My opinion, which is just that, an opinion, is that, other than in racing or slow speed tight maneuvering, leaning is not the best way to control a motorcycle. Period.

I also believe that referring to anyone's post, or opinion, as "crap" is a poor way to communicate a point of view. There are more civilized, respectful, and effective ways to express disagreement.

[Easy Rider]

leaning is not the best way to control a motorcycle. Period.

I also believe that referring to anyone's post, or opinion, as "crap" is a poor way to communicate a point of view. There are more civilized, respectful, and effective ways to express disagreement.

It does, however, get the point across in an unambiguous fashion, doesn't it ??
Well, maybe not......since you insist on doing it again.
I guess that means that you think being dense and stubborn is "civilized, respectful and effective" ? Some would respectufully disagree with that too. :roll:

And I could use the fact that I'm over 60 as an excuse for acting like a tard.....but I won't because that would be a cop out. :neener:

If you really want to see how effective leaning can be, try riding with NO HANDS sometime.
While an "amateur" would be ill-advised to try anything more than sweeping turns that way, professional stunt riders can do things without touching the bars that normal riders can't do using ALL the controls.

The fact that YOU don't feel comfortable using leaning as a steering input doesn't mean that everybody is that way. Whatever works for you, especially at OUR age is just peachy fine for YOU. That doesn't mean that it is appropriate for you to be "preaching" it to others.

Just exactly what did you hope to accomplish by dropping your little bomb here in the first place ?? It smacks somewhat of a TROLL.

And I know you are probably too OLD, with brain too shriveled to grasp this but.......do you know that what really MAKES the bike turn is the LEAN that results from the gyroscopic force on the spinning front wheel when you push on the bars ????

No, never mind. I'm done.

[Water Warrior 2]

dhgeyer, please get a copy of Proficient Motorcycling. Read it, practice the lessons. You will change some if not most of your firmly held opinions. You will be a better rider and a safer rider. A lot of us old guys survived the streets by sheer luck for too long. I am one of them. After a proper riding course and reading David Hough's publications I am a far better rider than I ever thought possible. I try to improve everytime I ride. Recently I have been leaning my body into curves and keeping the bike more upright. This works very well and my speed can be far greater than it was in the past. No, not advocating speeding in general either. Just saying training and practice can make a bike and rider a fine tuned couple going in the same direction.

[dhgeyer]

I'm not going to reply to the insults. I do not believe that they reflect on me.

I have all three of the books David L. Hough wrote, and have read them all. More than once. I have subscribed to "Motorcycle Consumer News" for many years, and read all of the skill and health related articles every month. I have taken the MSF Basic Rider Course three times. I have taken the Experienced Rider Course once. I have taken the far more extensive course required to be a Rider Coach for the Basic Rider Course. I only did that job for a short time, but I did it.

Quote from _Proficient Motorcycling_ by David L. Hough, page 49, fourth paragraph:

"Leaning can be initiated by a number of different factors, including road camber, crosswind, rider's body English, and steering the handlebars.. The most powerful factor in leaning is steering the handlebars, so I'll focus on that."

This quote comes from the section entitled "What Makes It Turn?". Following this paragraph is a fairly lengthy and somewhat technical treatise on how leaning turns the bike. Interesting reading. I don't recall anywhere in David Hough's writing where he advocates using the footpegs or body English to steer the machine through a curve or a corner, or any exercises he outlines that would practice this technique.

I am pretty familiar with the MSF curricula, and I know that at no time do they advocate using leaning to turn the machine, except as I noted above: racers lean in so as to decrease lean angle and avoid scraping pegs, and leaning out of the turn in very slow maneuvers allows leaning the bike more (thus turning sharper) without upsetting balance. Other than that, the MSF courses teach and emphasize countersteering. Period.

Stunt and race riders do lots of things I can't and have no desire to do. They do these things on fairly light motorcycles. I never said that you can't control a light bike that way. I just don't think it's a good habit to get into for anyone who plans on migrating to a heavier machine, where countersteering is by far the most effective way to steer. The MSF evidently agrees with me.

I am done with this thread. I have stated my opinion. I have cited I think reliable sources. I'm not going to fight with or insult anyone. Not my style.

[Easy Rider]

where countersteering is by far the most effective way to steer.

HOW you say things is important. IF you had said that in the beginning, there never would have been any arguement ......nor would there ever have been any insults.

What you DID say was:" Countersteering is how a motorcycle is controlled at riding speeds." and some other statements indicating that nothing else should even be considered .....which is somewhat different than where you ended up.

Your demeanor INVITES strong responses (insults).
THAT is your style, or at least it certainly was in your contribution to this thread.

[dhgeyer]

I am going to add one more post to this thread. Two more things to add.

1. Being an open minded guy (sometimes) I just now did a little experiment. I took the GZ250 out and tried some footpeg pressing and leaning at various constant speeds with no handlebar inputs. Kind of fun. Reminded me of downhill skiing. It works pretty well on the GZ. Not sure I could get around a corner that way without a lot of practice, but it definitely has a control effect, and could be used in conjunction with countersteering. Then I parked the GZ and got out my 2006 Kawasaki Concours. This is a sport touring bike that weighs somewhere between 650 and 700 pounds fully fueled and with the stuff I have on and in it. I tried the same experiment. At speeds under 30 mph pressing on a single footpeg had some minor effect, but not enough to be of any practical use. At speeds over 40 I could actually stand on one peg only and have no discernible effect. I had a bit more luck with leaning up to about 45, but only with a fair amount of effort for a very small return. Nothing a slight flick of the handlebars couldn't do better. The Concours, in addition to being heavy is also known for being overly top heavy. Not one of its best features, although it is only really noticeable at slow speeds, or trying to push the thing into the garage.

2. One of the exercises in the MSF Basic Rider Course involves swerving. This exercise is done during the course, and also as part of the test that you have to pass to get your certificate. Basically you have to ride between two entry cones at a certain minimum speed, and then get around one or the other (left or right) of two other cones a short distance from the entry cones, and offset to the side. Then you have to straighten out to your original direction of travel in order to avoid hitting another cone. It's not hard for an experienced rider, but for a newbie it can be a challenge. In the exercise part of it, a Rider Coach stands behind the swerve area and indicates at some point during your approach which way you are to swerve. In the test part, everyone swerves to the left. The instructions for this exercise state very plainly that the way to do it is with two presses on the handlebars in rapid succession. If swerving left, for example, press the left handlebar to avoid the cone you want to miss, then press right to straighten out. Press Press. They hammer this point. Nothing about leaning. Nothing.

During the training I took to be a Rider Coach, we must have practiced this exercise dozens, no, scores of times. We learned to teach the course by teaching each other, so we did a lot of riding. I am convinced that it saved my life, and my wife's life. Two years ago a car pulled out in front of us on a U.S. 2 lane highway. We were going about the speed limit - 55 mph. The young lady driving the car was stopped at a side road stop sign. She showed none of the usual signs of not seeing us. The wheels of her car were not moving, and she was looking straight in our direction. No cell phone. At the last moment, the worst possible moment, out she came. There was no time to think, and I cannot claim credit for quick thinking. What happened is a testament to the concept of "muscle memory", or, in other words, when you have to react automatically, what you do is what you have trained yourself to do every day. With no conscious thought, I pressed the left handlebar hard, then the right. We did not, as most riders in that situation would have, T-Bone the car. The swerve worked well enough to get us in front of her. Bad news is she hit my right saddlebag hard enough to knock us off the bike. I came out OK, my wife was very badly hurt. I am convinced that if we had T-Boned her, we would have both been killed, as I had not even touched the brakes (no time), and we were still going 50 or 55. People don't generally survive that.

This is why I am very adamant that new riders should learn to control the bike by countersteering. Other inputs can be fun, and have an effect, particularly on smaller bikes. But in an emergency situation, you want to have practiced doing the most effective thing you can do, and you want it to be automatic.

This thread is in a section of the forum for beginners. I address this to the beginners. You are the people we are supposed to be trying to help. Read all of the above posts. Think about it. Agree with me, or disagree with me. Experiment yourself. By all means take the course. Make up your own mind.

[Easy Rider]

This is why I am very adamant that new riders should learn to control the bike by countersteering. Other inputs can be fun, and have an effect, particularly on smaller bikes. But in an emergency situation, you want to have practiced doing the most effective thing you can do, and you want it to be automatic.


If you really want to be objective about the subject matter AND how you are presenting it......then it might be useful to continue the discussion. If not, then not.

One cannot learn to turn a motorcyle without countersteering; you just can't do it....as your tests kind of prove. No arguement there.

I would propose that during those tests, one of the reasons that you didn't get a lot of effect, especially with the leaning/shifting weight part, is because your mind unconsciously caused you to countersteer to counteract the effect a bit.....because you are somewhat unfamiliar with the technique and the feeling it causes. It is almost impossible NOT to do that.

Swerving is NOT the same as normal turning. Different techniques apply. Your brain knows the difference and easily learns to do different things in different conditions. Just because an emergency swerve requires only bar input to quickly and efficiently accomplish the manuver does NOT mean that normal turns have to be done that way too. Even though you don't seem to think that your mind can seperate the two distinct operations, it really CAN.
(Read that again.)

So, what you are saying is largely right.......but there appears to be a flaw in your logic.

Yes, new riders have to learn to countersteer, and.....
Yes, that's the only appropriate steering input for a swerve manuver......
BUT
That does NOT also mean that one should not learn a co-ordinated turning technique that combines bar pressure, shifting of weight (or leaning) and peg pressure (if you have a bike that reasonably allows it) as they progress past the beginner stage. Turns done with all the available inputs, with practice, tend to be smoother and more comfortable.....and you have more options to make corrections, if and when one is necessary.

The post that started this thread clearly comes from a relatively new rider that has just "discovered" a new steering input......and he likes it. There is absolutely no sound logical reason to suspect, or assume, that learning a more complete steering technique will in any way degrade your ability to swerve in an emergency. It just won't.

(I would have put "Period" at the end of that sentence but I think that conveys a smug and ego-centric attitude and I don't use it........even though I might BE smug and egocentric, there is no reason to flaunt it !!)

[alanmcorcoran]

Hey dh...

At the risk of attracting unwanted attention... a few points.

1) You will find that certain observations made on here will attract certain people to assert their (opposing) opinions, forcefully and relentlessly, generally long past the point of your interest. When this happens to me, I find it's best to just not respond anymore. I won't go into specifics, but lets just say I've been in the minority on a few of my opinions.

2) The majority of visitors to the site do not post much but do read a lot of the threads (lurkers, if you will.) Leaving aside choices of words, etc. I found your post to be interesting, particularly since I ride a very heavy bike and I don't shift my weight or do anything with my feet. Anyway, hope you'll continue to post as I like to hear a variety of viewpoints, even if I don't agree with them.

3) I think when you countersteer, you are effectively causing you AND the bike to lean. I think there is a difference between that "leaning" and the deliberate shifting of one's body weight. I do the first and not the second. I think the bike HAS to be leaned to turn, yes?

4) I had a similar, though less consequential experience with the "swerve." Just about a month ago, someone just shot out blindly in front of me in a parking lot. I did the swerve, (and also hit the front brakes - but lighty and just for a second!) I had dropped my bike once previously from swerving and braking in another parking lot and I guess I trained myself not to clamp down unless I'm going straight. My front tire skidded a bit, but I recovered, avoided the car and went on my way. Someone that watched all of this go down would have thought I was an expert, but it all happened before I could think. Rather than be rattled by the near miss, I felt pretty good about it afterwards. Sorry things did not come out so good for your wife.

[dhgeyer]

Alan,

Thank you for taking the time to make the above post. It is much appreciated. I agree with everything you say. And, yes, one way or another the bike must lean in order to turn, unless you're pushing it around the driveway or parking lot. Or unless it's a trike or sidecar rig, which are a whole different subject entirely, and one I know absolutely nothing about!

This forum isn't really any different than many others I have been on. It seems that the same personality types keep cropping up with different names and points of view. As you say, you have to know when you have said everything you have to say on a subject, and then let the readers decide. And have a bit of a thick skin.

I do sometimes bring it on myself, in that I get too active posting (posting too much) too soon. I think that someone who had been around longer could be just as opinionated as I am and not make so many waves. I think I'll kind of cool it for a while. After all, my main reason for joining the forum is that this bike is new to me, and I want a source of information for myself on certain topics. I should ask more questions and pontificate less, at least for a while.

[bonehead]

My 2 cents: I lean to turn, countersteer to swerve.

[mrlmd1]

One last point - a 2 wheeled bike cannot turn from a straight path unless it leans, going slow or fast, handlebars turned or not.
We all know, at slow speed, bars must be turned in the direction of the turn, at higher speeds, countersteering is what initiates it. In either case, the bike is leaning, it's the geometry of the system, Whatever it takes you to lean the bike, whatever you think works for you, do it, it's all the same result in the end. It has to do with leaning, shifting center of gravity, centrifugal and centripetal forces, (all forces must be in balance or it falls over one way or the other), etc. Let's not get into an argument over the laws of physics which we cannot change.

[mr. softie]

Mrlmd1 summed it up nicely. dhgeyer makes good points and handled himself better than I would. Easy Rider was true to form and always brings a thought provoking viewpoint. Alan has brought perspective and a calming voice to the discussion. I ramble on.

It is kind of funny to think of now, but the first people to advocate and ride using counter steering were considered at the time to be lunatics. A basic foundation of riding technique that we all take pretty much for granted now was once ridiculed by the general consensus. Using the front brake was in the same boat.

This thread started with an observation that weighing or pushing on the pegs has some effect on turning the GZ, which I thought was interesting because I was never able to put much weight on the pegs of my GZ, the pegs being so far in front of my butt. Pushing on the pegs was possible though , and involved pulling on the bars at the same time to keep from sliding backwards on the seat. Pushing on one peg with my foot had the consequence of pulling with the opposite hand, effectively causing a counter steer to happen, consciously or not.

This is opposite of what a road racer does when he uses the outside peg to help him push the inside bar, but has the same effect. I would have to say though, that counter steering has by far the largest effect on leaning any bike, and that pushing the pegs sometimes helps us counter steer, whether we are conscious of it or not.

Leaning the body (I know I am off topic here) also involves pushing the pegs and the bars to some degree, as our bodies are all connected. The foot bone connected to the leg bone, the leg bone connected to the hip bone, the hip bone connected to the body bone....

[Easy Rider]

dhgeyer makes good points and handled himself better than I would.

Easy Rider was true to form and always brings a thought provoking viewpoint.

Ah, yes but YOU wouldn't have stormed in like the proverbial bull in the china shop, implying that ONLY YOU knows the real truth and so everybody else is obviously wrong. :roll:

And since you were "kind" with your remarks about me, I will stop right there. :cool:

[mrlmd1]

Way to go, right on, Mr. Softie, about pushing the peg, pulling the bar. No comment about anything or anybody else.
Hard to believe we are actually ragging on each other (maybe the wrong choice of words, but you get the idea) for this when we are all basically doing the same thing and manage to accomplish the same goal.
After a while it becomes so automatic that we don't even think about what we are doing when we steer the bike, ie., we are aware of what's happening and how to make what we want to happen. As long as we don't slide off the turn or hit something, we don't consciously analyze every single move to make it happen.
Then we try and analyze it later to see what we did wrong.
As I said before, as long as you understand the principle of how it works, whatever you are doing, if it works for you and you are comfortable doing it, keep it up, and practice, practice, practice. Then it becomes automatic so you can concentrate on hazard and collision avoidance instead of thinking do I push on this or do I push on that. Like Mr. Softie said, it's all connected, each move interacts with all the others to lean the bike and balance all the forces involved.

[Easy Rider]

Like Mr. Softie said, it's all connected, each move interacts with all the others to lean the bike and balance all the forces involved.

Good show. Summed it all up in one sentence.
Now why didn't I think of that.......... :shocked:

[bonehead]

Like Mr. Softie said, it's all connected, each move interacts with all the others to lean the bike and balance all the forces involved.

Good show. Summed it all up in one sentence.
Now why didn't I think of that.......... :shocked:


Old farts' club, 'member?

[Water Warrior 2]

Boy, glad that is pretty much over. AND WE ARE ALL STILL FRIENDS....BONUS.

[Easy Rider]

Good show. Summed it all up in one sentence.
Now why didn't I think of that.......... :shocked:
Old farts' club, 'member?

Who....ME? Naw, can't be. :neener:
Passed that a couple of years back; now I am a grouchy old fart. :cool:

[Larry in Arkansas]

Jer,
Please look at the following video for the Keith Code Superbike School. Kind of an interesting video because it shows how leaning or weighting pegs will effect vehicle direction and also show how effective countersteering is. http://www.superbikeschool.com/machiner ... achine.php (http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php)
As their seems to be a lot of misinformation on the internet, I would also encourage you to sign up for the BRC provided by the MSF. You can obtain information and training locations from http://www.msf-usa.org/
If you only have 600 miles under your belt, you probably haven't developed any bad habits that will be difficult to break at this point.
As a way of introduction, I am a MSF Rider Coach and recently purchased one of the GZ250 range bikes for my wife to practice and continue her training as she recently completed the BRC.

[mrlmd1]

I've seen that video before but forgot where to find it. That shows without a doubt that countersteering accounts for virtually all the steering input on most bikes, and that shifting body weight or peg weight does almost nothing except on some off-road dirt bikes which have different geometry.
As was said before, by putting weight on a peg you may actually be pulling a little on the opposite handlebar, causing the bike to lean a little. We don't have bikes with 2 handlebars set up like the one in the video, so you don't really know what you are doing when you stand on a peg or lean over.
Regardless of whether you can get the bike to lean a fraction or not by shifting peg weight or leaning your body, without countersteering that effect is minimal and insignificant as was proved in that video.