Backfiring and uneven idle

[roncg41677]

Well, I've been having some issues with my 01 GZ. I should preface this by saying the bike sat in a shed for 2 years before I got it. Once we ran some good gas and some stabilizer through it, it ran fine for about 250 miles. It has just over 4k miles.

Then a few weeks ago I left work and right away it started sputtering. The throttle would just intermittently disappear, then come back. After a couple of miles, this problem got much worse, and it started backfiring, then would eventually stall. I pulled over, and noticed someone had changed the petcock to "PRI". I have no idea how long it had been in that position, as I hadn't even looked at it for at least a month.

Switched the petcock, and the problem persisted. The strange thing was, when the bike was in neutral it idled and ran fine. As soon as I would shift it in 1st, it would start sputtering under throttle twisting, backfire horrendously and then just die. I ended up pushing it about a half mile home.

I had some friends over who know a lot about bikes and we checked all the fuel lines for obstructions, they were clear. Checked the spark plug, it looked okay. We took off the carb and took it apart the jets seemed okay for the most part, but I don't know much about carbs, and the guys with me are Harley guys, so they weren't sure about the number of jets, etc. We put it back together and the problem was still there. Right off the start, sputtering, backfiring, even with flames sometimes.

My dad thought the problem could be that some rust or junk had broken off the inside of the tank and was obstructing the petcock/fuel filter (I didn't realize at the time there wasn't one.). I took the gas tank off and cleaned it out with some diesel fuel and BB's. It doesn't sputter or die anymore, but every time I let off the throttle I get some small backfiring, every time. And when it idles it doesn't sound even (it never has). The best representation I can give is this: ba-ba-ba-ba-baba-ba-ba-ba-bababa-ba-ba-ba, etc ad infinitum.

I've got a new spark plug I'll put in today or tomorrow, and another friend wants to help me give the carbs a much better cleaning.

Sorry for the long post, but that is the total history of the bike as long as I've had it. Any ideas on what the problem is? I've got a small amount of knowledge about engines. I'm comfortable tackling many issues, and am actually enjoying taking the bike apart to learn more about it :).

[Moedad]

Is your air filter clean?

[music man]

Also I am not sure if this has anything to do with it or not, but your bike does have a fuel filter of sorts, connected to the inside the tank part of the petcock. Did you happen to take it out and look at it by any chance. And I also would ask "is your air filter clean.


Later

[Easy Rider]

Well, I've been having some issues with my 01 GZ. I should preface this by saying the bike sat in a shed for 2 years before I got it. Once we ran some good gas and some stabilizer through it, it ran fine for about 250 miles. It has just over 4k miles.


Have you posted this problem here before? It sounds vaguely familiar.

Anyway..... before you go tearing the carb apart again and possibly making matters worse.....

Stabilizer is NOT a good cleaner. You may want to start out with fresh gas and some good cleaner.....like Original Gumout Carb Cleaner or Berryman's B12.

It may be unfortunate that you "cleaned" the tank without knowing that you NEEDED to. You may have damaged the inner lining, which will cause you trouble down the road. After all else is said and done, you need to install a paper or ceramic inline fuel filter.

I'm not clear on the present condition. Are you saying that the ONLY remaining problem is the backfire?......that it is running OK otherwise ?? The idle uneven-ness might just be an idle speed that is too low.

Either way, you need to check for leaks, intake or exhaust. Also the boot between the carb and the engine can crack with age. The air filter must be OEM, unless other mods have been made, and the air box must be tight, including the plug on the bottom of the drain tube, and, of course, no holes or tears in the filter or the airbox. Unlike most applications, the airbox is BEHIND the filter, flow wise.

Exhaust leaks (ahead of the muffler) can also cause a backfire.

Good luck! Keep us posted. Please put your location in your profile. :tup:

[roncg41677]

Is your air filter clean?

Yeah, the air filter is clean.

Easy Rider,
I haven't posted here before, but I have posted this on the Total Motorcycle forums, if you frequent there.

Sorry, I didn't use the stabilizer to clean the tank. The old owner put some stabilizer in the tank when I got the bike, thinking it would help after the bike had already been sitting. ...I know :roll: .

I used Berryman's B12 after the tank was clean and it was gassed back up. FWIW, I did see some brown "stuff" on the bottom of the tank. Just on the lowest parts of the tank, not elsewhere. You've got me all freaked out now. I hope I didn't mess up my tank. O_o I's assume there's no way to look and tell if I damaged the lining?

The bike seems to be running MUCH better now. The only problem is the backfiring (and the uneven idle). I haven't taken it to work yet, because I don't want it to die in the middle of nowhere. I'll at least change the spark plug and the oil before I chance it.


music man,
I did take the petcock out. I was confused because I thought the service manual I downloaded showed the tubes on the petcock as the "fuel filters". I did look at them and noticed there were no large holes. Is that how it works? The gas just kind of flows through the tube itself rather than into any larger holes? I will look into a fuel filter.

[Easy Rider]

I used Berryman's B12 after the tank was clean and it was gassed back up. FWIW, I did see some brown "stuff" on the bottom of the tank. Just on the lowest parts of the tank, not elsewhere. You've got me all freaked out now. I hope I didn't mess up my tank. O_o I's assume there's no way to look and tell if I damaged the lining?

The bike seems to be running MUCH better now. The only problem is the backfiring (and the uneven idle). I haven't taken it to work yet, because I don't want it to die in the middle of nowhere. I'll at least change the spark plug and the oil before I chance it.


Probably no way to tell about the tank. Just watch the upper part that you can see with a flashlight for signs of rust.

You may just need to run more B12 through it to finish the cleaning BUT you really need to check for those air leaks I mentioned. Might be an easy fix.

[roncg41677]

About the idle...

Is this nothing to worry about? Playing with the idle adjuster could fix something like that?

[patrick_777]

Have you posted this problem here before? It sounds vaguely familiar.

He explained the problem in his introduction post the day before yesterday. It gave me some deja vu too.

[patrick_777]

About the idle...

Is this nothing to worry about? Playing with the idle adjuster could fix something like that?

This might seem like a silly question, but are you letting it warm up completely and have the choke completely off? The idle adjustment screw will only alter the speed AT idle (hence the name). If you're still getting lugging and/or stalling when you open the throttle, you're having fuel or air flow issues (probably the latter).

Do what Easy said. Check all the vacuum hoses and tubes on the bike for tightness and cracks. Even a slightly loose vacuum hose will cause all sorts of real problems.

[roncg41677]

[quote="Easy Rider":14p1p8ct]Have you posted this problem here before? It sounds vaguely familiar.

He explained the problem in his introduction post the day before yesterday. It gave me some deja vu too.[/quote:14p1p8ct]

Sorry :). Yeah, that's me.


This might seem like a silly question, but are you letting it warm up completely and have the choke completely off?

I'll have to pay closer attention. After putting the tank back on and riding it for ~5 minutes the other day it was doing it. And I know the choke was off. As far as checking vacuum hoses, can I just look at them, or do I need to try to blow through them or something?

Thanks for all the help :) !

[patrick_777]

You don't have to blow in them or anything, just make sure the fittings are tight and there are no really visible cracks or other imperfections.

Also, get an inline fuel filter on that thing quick. They are CHEAP and EASY to install so there's really no excuse for not doing it.

[roncg41677]

Also, get an inline fuel filter on that thing quick. They are CHEAP and EASY to install so there's really no excuse for not doing it.

Any recommendations?

[patrick_777]

http://www.gz250bike.com/viewtopic.php?t=1377

[Easy Rider]

About the idle...

Is this nothing to worry about? Playing with the idle adjuster could fix something like that?

It's probably not a serious problem but it IS a problem. If the idle speed is WAY too low, it can stumble a bit.
After it is thoroughly warmed up, tweek the throttle open just a TINY bit, until you can just BARELY notice an increase in idle speed. If it also seems to run smoother when speeded up slightly, then your idle adjustment is probably too low. Adjust it up a bit with the knob beside the carb.


As far as checking vacuum hoses, can I just look at them, or do I need to try to blow through them or something?


First, visually check for cracks or other obvious damage.......including checking for holes/modifications to the air cleaner or the box. Then look to be sure there is a plug in the end of the air box drain hose.
If that doesn't yield anything, get a can of spray carb cleaner (Gumout). Spray a little around the OUTSIDE of the vacume hose going to the petcock; also the boot going into the engine; also the outside of the air box and the drain hose in the bottom.......if the engine speed changes, you are spraying it on a spot where there is a vacume leak.

If the idle speed is not the problem and you don't find any vacume or exhaust leaks, remove the air filter, start the engine and spray the Gumout directly (as possible) into the carb intake, slowly at first and then fast enough to kill the engine. Turn off the ignition and replace the air cleaner and covers. Let it sit for about 15 minutes then go for a ride.

PLEASE print this message out (and maybe my earlier one too). Refer to it (them) until you have checked out all the things I mentioned. If none of that helps, then you need to ride it for 100 miles or so to see if the cleaner does the trick. If not, you need to SERIOUSLY consider taking it to a shop.

Based on your questions and answers, I do NOT think YOU should be taking the carb. apart.
Sorry but I just don't.

[roncg41677]

PLEASE print this message out (and maybe my earlier one too). Refer to it (them) until you have checked out all the things I mentioned. If none of that helps, then you need to ride it for 100 miles or so to see if the cleaner does the trick. If not, you need to SERIOUSLY consider taking it to a shop.

Based on your questions and answers, I do NOT think YOU should be taking the carb. apart.
Sorry but I just don't.
No problem. I'm not interested in doing work I don't need to do ;). I wouldn't tackle the job myself. I have friends with much more experience than me who were going to help me with it, none of them with GZ's, mind you (hence my putting the issue before you fine people :)). I didn't think it would hurt since the bike sat for so long. I will check the vacuum hoses when I get to the spark plug.

Patrick, thanks for the link!

I'll be sure to update when I get further.

[roncg41677]

Well, I put in the new spark plug. Checked the hoses and everything looked okay.

Once the new plug was in I fired it up and it's back to running like complete garbage again. I can peg the throttle and it revs a tiny bit then starts sputtering and backfiring with the occasional ultra-cool flame out the exhaust :pissed: . No way I can take it out on the road.

New plug - check. Clean fuel tank - check. vacuum hoses - check. Clean air filter - check. Carb cleaned - sort-of-check.

I can attack the carb a bit more on my own I guess. I haven't gone through a gallon of fuel with the Berryman's in the tank yet. I bought a can of spray carb cleaner. Someone on another forum suggested removing the air filter and spraying carb cleaner into the carb while the bike was running until the bike stalled, leave it, then start it up again.

Someone else suggested it may be a problem with the gas cap not allowing atmospheric pressure into the tank O_o . I'm only mentioning these things to see if they are plausible. One more thing; when my friends helped me check the carb they checked by sticking a small wire into the jets to check for obstructions. I'm told this could have caused real damage?

I'm clueless and broke.

[mr. softie]

I had similar problem when I first got my gz. It had been sitting. Would not run without pumping throttle. Backfiring like crazy. Tried stuff in gas. I "sort of" cleaned the carb three times. Finally I *!completely!* disassembled carb and soaked all the jets etc. including the body (after removing all the rubber parts) in straight carb cleaner (gumout) overnight. Pay attention to the idle mixture air screw. There is an "O" ring down in that tiny hole. You must remove it and all other plastic and rubber parts or the carb cleaner will ruin them. There are tiny passages in the body that get clogged up. Soaking is the only way to clear them.

This worked. I blew out all the passages with compressed air. Checked float level. Reassembled carb. Installed and really tightened hose clamps holding the carb. Like new bike now.

[patrick_777]

Softie, I imagine that would make ANY bike run like a new bike.

:bow:

[Easy Rider]

I bought a can of spray carb cleaner. Someone on another forum suggested removing the air filter and spraying carb cleaner into the carb while the bike was running until the bike stalled, leave it, then start it up again.

Someone else suggested it may be a problem with the gas cap not allowing atmospheric pressure into the tank O_o .

Yes, the first proceedure is a good thing to do.

A blocked vent in the gas cap will cause it to stumble and die after running for a couple of minutes. Up to that time, it should run fine. From your description, I don't think that is your problem.

You DO need to run it a bit to get the cleaner through the carb. If you can't run it up and down a side street, letting it idle for 10 minutes every couple of hours might work. (Don't idle it too long or it might overheat.)

I'm thinking you need to save up your $$$ for a trip to the shop for a "real" carb cleaning. Ask first but should be about $100-150, and get a fuel filter installed.
Yes, poking wires into jets is not a good thing to do.......for an amateur.

[roncg41677]

I had similar problem when I first got my gz. It had been sitting. Would not run without pumping throttle. Backfiring like crazy. Tried stuff in gas. I "sort of" cleaned the carb three times. Finally I *!completely!* disassembled carb and soaked all the jets etc. including the body (after removing all the rubber parts) in straight carb cleaner (gumout) overnight. Pay attention to the idle mixture air screw. There is an "O" ring down in that tiny hole. You must remove it and all other plastic and rubber parts or the carb cleaner will ruin them. There are tiny passages in the body that get clogged up. Soaking is the only way to clear them.

This worked. I blew out all the passages with compressed air. Checked float level. Reassembled carb. Installed and really tightened hose clamps holding the carb. Like new bike now.
That's encouraging :). Did you have to buy a rebuild kit? Or were you able to replace all of the rubber parts?

Yes, poking wires into jets is not a good thing to do.......for an amateur.
Uuuuh, :oops: . I didn't actually do it. A friend of mine did. Hope it didn't mess anything up :puke: .

[roncg41677]

Shot a quick, really bad video trying to show the problem. My son kept pointing out my bike was "broken", and when it backfired, my wife chimes in :).

[youtube:lv5rkr0o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtChwiQh35s[/youtube:lv5rkr0o]

[Easy Rider]

My son kept pointing out my bike was "broken",

Smart kid you got there! :biggrin:

[mr. softie]

No rebuild kit. I'm "broke" too. :cry:

[music man]

The backfire "blue flame" and that last little spit your bike makes on the video sounds like it could be your valves you are having trouble with, but the only problem I have with that is it seems to be running awfully good when you first start it, but Have you checked the valves?



Later :skull:

[roncg41677]

I haven't checked the valves. Like you noticed, it seems to run fine in neutral.

[music man]

Wait a minute, it runs fine in neutral then does that when you put it in gear? or did I miss understand you?



Later

[roncg41677]

Wait a minute, it runs fine in neutral then does that when you put it in gear? or did I miss understand you?



Later
No, that's correct. I'll try to get a better video tomorrow. It runs okay in neutral. Things get hairy when I shift it into gear.

[patrick_777]

Maybe I missed it, but have you changed the oil and is it maybe too full?

[roncg41677]

I haven't changed the oil yet. It doesn't look too full. Would I have been able to ride it for so long without an issue if that was the case? I rode the bike about 250 miles before it did this.

A week from tomorrow a friend of mine who used to build race cars is going to help me clean out the carb. I'm really hoping that will do it.

BTW, thanks SO much for all of the help thus far :).

[music man]

I have another thought :skull: . When you shift into first and it bogs down like that, it could be possible (I don't think this is it, but a Possibility) that the safety switch that kills your bike when you shift into gear with the kick stand down, maybe still half way trying to kill your bike even though it shouldn't be (like a short or something), Just a thought. But I still think you should check your valves and your fuel/air first, but if those don't fix it for some reason this could maybe be a possibility.



Later :bang:

[jonathan180iq]

If the side stand kill switch was cutting out even a little bit the bike would die and then turn back a bit more "violently" than it seems like he is decsribing.

[music man]

You have a point there, I hadn't really thought of that. I guess that is why you are "Lord of the Forum". :neener:



Later

[Easy Rider]

...... that the safety switch that kills your bike when you shift into gear with the kick stand down, maybe still half way trying to kill your bike even though it shouldn't be (like a short or something), Just a thought.

That might be a better idea than you think. :)

I have heard of a partially shorted side-stand switch already this year. I think it was a thread on here....maybe not.
Anyway, since you have said that, I would certainly NOT be probing the valves or taking apart the carb before checking out a safety switch induced ignition problem.

Unless the clutch is BADLY out of adjustment, putting it in gear should not have any impact on how the engine runs......and then it would tend to lurch forward.

[Easy Rider]

If the side stand kill switch was cutting out even a little bit the bike would die and then turn back a bit more "violently" than it seems like he is decsribing.

Maybe, maybe not. The Suzuki electronics is...mmmm...different! :roll:

[music man]

Easy Rider that is also true. I sort of said that in reverse, the easiest thing to do first, I was suggesting to try last. :oops:

I am still not clear on whether or not it ONLY does it when he puts it in gear, which is why I was kinda iffy on whether I thought it could be a safety switch problem or not.



Later

[Easy Rider]

I am still not clear on whether or not it ONLY does it when he puts it in gear, which is why I was kinda iffy on whether I thought it could be a safety switch problem or not.


Me neither. Maybe we need another sample video and some narration.

Or maybe we should just ask his kid what the problem is !! :shocked: :crackup

[music man]

Hey Easy go back and watch the video again and just watch his shifting foot, that is exactly when it does it, he shifts it into gear and it sputters and dies. Tell me what you think.




Later

[roncg41677]

[quote="music man":1i8bhvp0] I am still not clear on whether or not it ONLY does it when he puts it in gear, which is why I was kinda iffy on whether I thought it could be a safety switch problem or not.


Me neither. Maybe we need another sample video and some narration.

Or maybe we should just ask his kid what the problem is !! :shocked: :crackup[/quote:1i8bhvp0]
At this point my 3 year old son probably has a better idea than I do.

Yes, it only does it in gear. In fact, when it first acted up on my way home from work, I'd stall out on the side of the road, put it in neutral, start it up again, it would run fine, I'd put it into gear then it would sputter and die again.

I've thought about the side stand kill switch, but would that cause the engine to backfire?

I meant to bet a better video today, but didn't get to. I'll try for a sequel tomorrow. My friend called and is available early tomorrow morning to look at the carb, so I'll be doing that first.

[music man]

I think that it could, if it is only partially shorting your system out. I am no electronics expert by a long shot but I think that could very definitely be your problem, I am not 100% on this but I don't think that it is going to be your carb, if you said it only did it in gear when you put a load on it maybe but just sitting still with the clutch in and you put it in gear it does that it (seems to me) seems like it would lean more to a safety switch problem than any other problem at this point.

And also the point that Easy made is that it would be easier to check that than your valves or carb, but if your buddy is going to do it for you anyways, at least when you do fix it your carb will be all sparkly clean. But I would go with the Safety switch first (if it were me).


Later

[roncg41677]

I'll take a look at the switch tomorrow as I'm tearing the carb off ;).

[Easy Rider]

I've thought about the side stand kill switch, but would that cause the engine to backfire?

I meant to bet a better video today, but didn't get to. I'll try for a sequel tomorrow. My friend called and is available early tomorrow morning to look at the carb, so I'll be doing that first.

Yes on the backfire.

I don't think you need another video clip. Your additional explanation makes it crystal clear.

I STRONGLY suggest that you should NOT mess with the carb because it is obvious now that the carb is NOT the problem. Check that side-stand switch. IIRC, it is fairly easy to by-pass it for a test.

[roncg41677]

Okay, went over to my friend's house this morning. He tore the carb completely apart. There was a bit of a clog in the idle jet, but nothing seemed horrible. It is idling a little too fast now, I think. I'll need to adjust the idle. At least it's clean now. I did notice the bike idles a little smoother after I put it back in, but...

...it's still doing it :pissed: . I looked at the kill switch, at least as good as I could sitting on the ground, putting the side stand up and trying to feel under the bike without it falling on me. It felt like it was making a good connection and pushing the button in as much as it should. It didn't push the button in completely, but about 4/5 or something. I searched quickly and couldn't find the test to bypass the switch Easy Rider. I'm getting ready to run out the door for a bit. I'll look again later.

Made another video anyway :). Here it is:
[youtube:18aokbkz]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mUCtUSEJkI[/youtube:18aokbkz]

for whatever reason, it doesn't do it as much the first time I put it in gear. The second time, however, when it was backfiring, I had the throttle almost pinned.

Also, for the record, you were right, Easy Rider. :whistle:

[music man]

Yea I think you have a safety switch problem, and also it might not actually be the "switch" not engaging or disengaging, but a short in the wires to it, so you can't really just push the button and say that it is not the problem.


Later

[Easy Rider]

Also, for the record, you were right, Easy Rider. :whistle:

Just remember that NEXT time! :biggrin: :crackup

I am glad that the carb work did not introduce a NEW problem and make things worse. Sometimes it DOES!! :cry:

Experience is the best teacher. I just went through this same thing with somebody else a few months ago. He ended up having to get a new side-stand switch.

So.......here's the next step: Find the wires to the side-stand safety. Disconnect them. Be sure they are not touching anything, including each other. Start bike and click in gear. If the wiring and relays are good, I think it should die completely (side-stand down condition). Next, connect the 2 wires together with a clip or something else temporary. (Side-stand UP condition) Do the test again. If the bike keeps running.....that is, problem gone, the the safety switch needs cleaning and adjusting or replacement.

Just one possible problem with this: I may have the two conditions reversed; don't remember for sure. :??: The testing would be easier if you had a multi-meter.

This "test" is not documented anywhere so you can stop looking for it. If the problem goes away with the wires open or shorted, you could ride it like that .........but there is, of course, a danger in doing that.

[roncg41677]

The testing would be easier if you had a multi-meter.

I do have a multimeter. What would I check for with the multimeter?

[Easy Rider]

I do have a multimeter. What would I check for with the multimeter?

The side-stand switch itself. With the wires off, in one position the switch should be wide open; in the other position, is should be a dead short. Note that in the position where it is supposed to be shorted, it may be intermittant due to engine vibrations. That might be hard to simulate with the meter; alligator clips for the test leads would help.

Edit later: I thought I remembered that there is something "funny" about the side-stand switch. It has a diode inside. It appears from the service manual that the switch should be OPEN when the button is out (side stand down) and closed (shorted via a diode) when the stand is UP.
I "think" you can still test it by removing the wires and shorting them together.......but now I'm not totally sure. It's worth a shot; certainly won't hurt anything.

[5th_bike]

With the multimeter on "diode test" it should give you a stable approx. 0.6 V readout for the side stand switch (assuming it's a regular silicon diode), in the position "side stand up". Test both ways (i.e. swap contacts), because only one way works. Once you have that, you know the switch itself is good, and it's in the wiring or the contacts.

Unfortunately the "continuity" test setting on the multimeter will give you "infinity" resitance for the switch, even when the switch is good... because of the diode.

But you CAN test the individual pieces of wiring going to and from the side stand switch, of course, with the "continuity" test and with the 'ohms' (resistance) test.

I have not followed the discussion for a couple days as it seemed a carb thing, but I agree with Easy now, it looks like a contact or wire issue for the side stand switch. There should be a little current going through the wiring via the side stand switch, and in this case there is just not enough being able to go through. It is not a 'short' thing, but a 'bad contact' thing. Try loosening all contacts for the side stand wiring, and tightening them again, then try your bike.

[5th_bike]

Yours has "diode test" and "continuity' in one setting, with black border and black diode symbol, on your dial at about 175° - almost 'south', between "200 ?" and "wave with red border".

You test the two wire ends that go to the side stand switch. One (I know off the top of my head) is at the side stand relay, try connecting the red probe of your multimeter there first. I don't know where the ground connection for the side stand switch connects, after you find it, try there, first with the black probe tip.

With the side stand up, it should give you about 0.6V readout - NOTE only in one (!) of the possible two ways to hook it up. If you do not get a readout in either hookup, or you get a readout that is unstable when you jiggle the wiring, you know that there is a bad contact somewhere... in between the side stand relay, and where the side stand switch wire grounds.

If you can unhook the two wires from the side stand switch itself, you could test each individual wire, the "continuity" should give a beep (mine does) and/or the multimeter readout should be close to zero ohms.

Hope this helps. Sorry to say I have not (yet) disassembled my sidestand relay wiring...

Edit: I could have sworn you posted a reply with a picture of your multimeter in it... it probably was a dream... a mental message... or :bong: ....

[roncg41677]

Edit: I could have sworn you posted a reply with a picture of your multimeter in it... it probably was a dream... a mental message... or :bong: ....
There was. I deleted it because I did what I should have done in the first place, check the meter manual :roll: .

When I put the side stand up and checked the green connector the meter read 608. I'm assuming that's .6v. I had had the side stand down the first time :blush: . I can't even see the connection at the switch itself. It's mounted on top of part of the frame inside of a little housing. Any suggestions on how to get to the wires at the switch?

I removed the relay, although checking it per the service manuals instructions is a little confusing.
TURN SIGNAL/SIDE-STAND RELAY
The turn signal relay is corporated with the side-stand relay and diode to form the one component part which is called the turn signal/side-stand relay. It is located under the luggage box.
• Remove the front seat. (See p. 5-1.)
• Remove the luggage box

SIDE-STAND RELAY INSPECTION
First check the insulation between "D" and "E" terminals with tester. Then apply 12 volts to "D" and "C" terminals, "+" to "D" and "-" to "C", and check the continuity between "D" and "E". If there is no continuity, replace turn signal/side-stand relay with a new one.
What is checking the "insulation" and how do I "apply 12 volts"?

[5th_bike]

Hold on, at this point there is no reason to inspect the side stand relay as in the manual, even though there is an ever so slight chance that the error is in there. You could test that by checking for a stable 0.6V between the orange wire to the side stand relay and ground; with the side stand down, the bike in neutral, and the side stand switch connector loose.

:oops: Oh, I forgot: when you do the testing as in my previous post, make sure the bike is in gear, otherwise the good connection via the neutral switch could mess things up. Sorry again.

Looking at the wiring diagram on page 205 of the user manual, for now I would concentrate on the two (orange and black/white) wires that go to and from the side stand switch. If you already loosened the connector on the way to the side stand, and you checked a stable .6V with the multimeter diode test for the side stand switch itself, the side stand switch and the contacts there are good, no reason to take it out.

Then, it is either the orange wire from the relay to the connector, or the black/white from the connector to ground. Check the wires with the "continuity" setting; or measure their resistance, which should be close to zero ohms. Also wiggle the wires a bit (have your son help, while you hold both ends of the multimeter) to simulate the vibration of the engine, and see if the readout changes.

Lastly, closely inspect all copper surfaces of the connectors, if you see a funky spot on one of the connectors, like a discoloration, try to clean it so it makes good contact.

On the side, "apply 12V" means: connect a wire to +12V (I suggest the orange/blue wire at the right side of the horn - it has a fuse, but needs the key 'on' to be active with 12V) and D, and connect a wire to 0V (the black wire at the battery) and C, then there should be continuity between D and E (i.e. the relay is activated). However, your bike works fine in neutral so I wouldn't worry about testing the relay as described here, now.

Edit (add): 1) "insulation" means, there should be no contact between D and E when the relay is not activated. Resistance = infinite.
2) All tests, please do with the engine off.

[roncg41677]

Well, today I tried checking the wires you mentioned, 5th_bike. I wasn't completely sure I was checking the right ones. Is this where the orange wire you mentioned was?
http://photos-h.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v333/170/39/838912301/n838912301_716455_3658.jpg

I noticed the place the orange wire connects has no terminal inside (middle top on left). I wasn't sure where the ground end of the black/white wire is? Kind of new to this.

The first "green connector" I was referring to was here (on the right side):
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v333/170/39/838912301/n838912301_716457_4391.jpg

After putting everything back together the bike is running great. I don't know what I did? Maybe the first connector wasn't tight enough or something. It could be a fluke. It acted fine a few weeks ago after I cleaned out the gas tank then it went south, so that could be the case.

[patrick_777]

You could have just had some slight corrosion on the connector pins and the actual act of reseating the cable cleaned the problem up.

[roncg41677]

You could have just had some slight corrosion on the connector pins and the actual act of reseating the cable cleaned the problem up.

Talk about the long way round! I'll be very glad if that's it! If nothing else I'll have a clean carb, gas tank and new plug :).

[Easy Rider]

You could have just had some slight corrosion on the connector pins and the actual act of reseating the cable cleaned the problem up.

Talk about the long way round! I'll be very glad if that's it! If nothing else I'll have a clean carb, gas tank and new plug :).

I am totally convinced that you had a bad connection somewhere in that kick-stand circuit. The most likely place is the switch itself but an associated connector could easily be the culprit. I hope so; that way you won't have to stand on your head to remove the switch. :)

[5th_bike]

Well, today I tried checking the wires you mentioned, 5th_bike. I wasn't completely sure I was checking the right ones. Is this where the orange wire you mentioned was?

No, the connector I was talking about, between the relay and the side stand switch, only has two connector wires in it, according to the electric schedule. Maybe it is the green connector, but I'm not sure. However it is possible that the ground wire from the side stand also connects somewhere at the yellow one that you pulled apart (just speculating...)

After putting everything back together the bike is running great. I don't know what I did?

I know what you did - you fixed your bike ! :tup:

Don't forget to tell your kid ! "Bike broke, daddy fix bike !"

So it was a bad contact issue after all. Easy was on the right track there. I hope it will work well from now on. If the irregular-running-when-in-gear ever comes back, you now know what contacts to unplug, and clean, or just jiggle a bit, in order for them to make a good contact again. I'm also glad that your sidestand relay survived the many 'on/off' switches it made during the irregular runs. Lastly, in 20/20 hindsight I should have written what I kind of wanted, but my posts were already long enough, and I didn't want to get any false hopes up: "Chances are your bike will run fine after you just undo the connectors and plug them back together again"...
PS Oh, I kind of did (quoting me): "Try loosening all contacts for the side stand wiring, and tightening them again, then try your bike."

End well all well, and happy and safe riding ! :rawk:

[roncg41677]

I just rode back from work. I rode about 12 miles today (to and from work). The bike is running great! At first the horn didn't work, but after about 5 minutes it was working fine. Another contact issue, I guess. Thanks to the carb cleaning and everything else I did it is running much better than it did before. Feels like new!

Thanks so much for all your help everyone!

P.S., 5th_bike, I didn't do what you first suggested because I didn't know what "contacts" you were talking about. I kind of learned as I went. Now I know better. :)

[roncg41677]

Well, months later, and the bike is doing it again :cry: . It's not as bad as it was originally, but I'm 99% certain it's still the side stand kill switch. Bike is fine in neutral, and sputtering in gear. Stalled out on me a few weeks back and had to be hauled home. Bike would start and run fine in neutral then die as soon as it was kicked into first, just like before.

I WD-40'd the connectors and all, and it improved slightly. I haven't found any instructions on bypassing, but at this point that seems like my only option. In our previous discussion I got a little lost with some terminology. But if you good folks can bear with me again I'd like to take another crack at this problem.

[Sarris]

Replace the sidestand switch, dont' try and bypass it. There is some kind of diode (?) in the switch that goes bad (?) and it won't run if bypassed.

Easy, do remember the details?? This has been :horse: Do a search for sidestand.

:2tup:

[roncg41677]

I know, I know :). I did do a search and found sportpsyc's "Update on strange electrical problem" thread. He didn't even bypass it, it was just bad connections that apparently worked again when he put them back together, just like me. At this point I feel like I just want to get it fixed so I can confidently sell it to someone else. Electrical issues are too complex for me. Like when you say replace the switch, which actual physical part are you talking about? The button? The connector? The relay or the whole assembly? I'm really not trying to be a pain, I just don't know.

[Easy Rider]

Replace the sidestand switch, dont' try and bypass it. There is some kind of diode (?) in the switch that goes bad (?) and it won't run if bypassed.


:plus1: :plus1: :plus1:

Those are all the details you really need to know!! :tup:

Ron: GET A NEW SWITCH!
In the mean time, unplug and re-plug the connectors that go to the switch. If that fixes it AGAIN, then you need to inspect and clean those connectors
BUT
I really think at this point that it is the switch......or the connectors ON IT.

Did somebody say "Get a new switch" ?? :roll:

[Easy Rider]

Electrical issues are too complex for me. Like when you say replace the switch, which actual physical part are you talking about? The button? The connector? The relay or the whole assembly? I'm really not trying to be a pain, I just don't know.

All you have to fear is fear itself.

You've had the connectors apart once and that's about as complicated as it gets for this problem.

The "switch" only comes as the whole assembly. Look at it for a minute; see where the screws or bolts are that holds it on. Put the stand up (while someone else holds the bike) and notice where the stand contacts the "button".

Disconnect the wires; unbolt the old switch assembly; bolt on the new one. Position it near as posssible the same as old one (if there is any "adjustment" in the mount. Plug the wires back in. Test that the stand pushes the button properly. DONE.

Good idea to use some blue Loctite on the mounting bolts. Failing that, a little dab of enamel paint or nail polish works too. Might want to clean bolts and hole if oily/dirty.

Don't get your shorts all tied up with the details. Just go for it.

OTHER OPTION:
Take it to the Zuki shop. The fix there should run you about $50.

[mr. softie]

This whole thread and the problems ron and others have had really point out one of the often neglected but important aspects of motorcycle maintainance.

Bikes really have to operate in a hostile environment, with all the wiring connectors basically exposed to the elements. I think it really is worth spending a bit of time every 5000 miles or so doing regular maintainance to the bike. As part of the regular maintainance I pull every connector apart and clean the contacts with some Radio Shack Precision Electronics Cleaner. It is a spray with a brush. I then fill the connectors with dielectric tune up grease, and reassemble. The action of pushing the connectors together will displace the grease off the actual contacts, but the grease will protect the contacts from moisture and oxidation. Actually once you do this it should protect your connections for quite a while, years in fact. Do the same for all the connectors, including the lights, light sockets etc. Dielectric grease is a non conductor, and helps prevent electrical "leaks" as well as protecting the connection from moisture and oxidation.

People who ride only on nice warm dry sunny days and always keep the bike inside might not need to do this, but even washing the bike will tend to introduce moisture to the connectors, with the resulting problems. Those of us who live in areas of lousy wet weather and ride everyday definitely benefit from this preventative care.


http://www.postimage.org/Pq2JJrh9.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2JJrh9)



http://www.postimage.org/Pq2JLsur.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2JLsur)

[roncg41677]

The "switch" only comes as the whole assembly. Look at it for a minute; see where the screws or bolts are that holds it on. Put the stand up (while someone else holds the bike) and notice where the stand contacts the "button".

Cool. So the "switch" is the whole thing, button, wires and all? I checked Bike Bandit (http://www.bikebandit.com/suzuki-motorcycle-gz250k1-2001/o/m6284) and couldn't find it. Am I missing it? I guess the dealership is the next option, at least to get the part. I can't afford to pay for the service, especially if I can do it myself (albeit with a LOT of help from you guys ;))

Mr. Softie, I will definitely do what you suggested. It can get pretty wet here in FL, and my bike stays out on the carport. The Precision Electronics Cleaner sounds like exactly what I was looking for. I'll give that good cleaning/insulation a try before I venture into replacing the switch/button/doohickey. Thanks so much for all your help! I'll update when something starts working again, which will hopefully be sooner than later ;).

[mr. softie]

The switch is on bikebandit, but it is $60. I would check with the dealer, as prices are usually cheaper at the dealer for stock parts and there is no shipping. Number 11 on this diagram of the wiring harness. See http://www.bikebandit.com/suzuki-motorcycle-gz250k1-2001/o/m6284 scroll down to the Wiring harness.

I would take the switch off the bike, and see if I could disassemble it and clean the inside, or at least try to spray a cleaner in there and work the switch. Because of it's position under the bike it is exposed to very adverse conditions. If you have a continuity tester or multimeter check to make sure it is working and if it is you may have a broken wire leading to it.

http://www.postimage.org/Pq2KSJW0.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2KSJW0)

[Easy Rider]

People who ride only on nice warm dry sunny days and always keep the bike inside might not need to do this, but even washing the bike will tend to introduce moisture to the connectors, with the resulting problems.

Yep, that sounds pretty much like me. (Crossing fingers that I don't get caught is a BIG ass thunderstorm next spring). :roll:

I really don't believe in washing a bike that isn't ridden off-road. I polish the tank, fenders, pipes, wheels and bars occasionally with quick cleaner/polish but it's lucky if it gets a real wash once a year.

[roncg41677]

Thanks. Don't know how I missed that on Bikebandit.

I bought the cleaner at Radio Shack tonight, but they didn't have the grease, and I couldn't find it at Walmart in the auto section or hardware section. Where can I find that dialectic grease?

[mr. softie]

NAPA etc. Auto parts store will have it.

[Water Warrior 2]

You can also get a reasonable view of the side stand switch by looking under the bike from the right hand side while it is on the side stand.

[roncg41677]

Well, I just got back from pushing the bike home :cry: .

I sprayed the contacts with CRC cleaner and put the dialectic grease on them. I sprayed the cleaner into the switch too. Started the bike up and it sounded good. Geared up and started around the block and no more sputtering. I took it onto the main road because I wanted to get the revs up more and make sure it was okay.

When I really revved it up in 1st gear the power dropped, like it was bogging down. By the time I was in 3rd gear (around 40mph) it started backfiring, then the engine died. I coasted as far as I could and pulled over. It would start up and run fine in N, then die as soon as I put it into first :mad: .

A couple of things:
I never mentioned, but the power loss at higher rpms was happening before it died the last time too.[/*:m:3ihupq0g]
When I was spraying the cleaner I checked the switch. With the stand UP it's not being pushed in all the way. It is being pushed to within maybe 1/8 to 1/4 inch of the housing. I guess the next thing is to pry the metal tab out a bit so it will push in further. But I can't imagine that letting it run fine till the rpm's get up there?[/*:m:3ihupq0g]
I don't know how high I was revving it (no tach, obviously), but it was probably just at the bike's upper limits. I'm pretty conservative in my riding, and wouldn't be too crazy.[/*:m:3ihupq0g]

Clueless.

[mr. softie]

Is the switch movable to adjust by loosening the bolts and sliding it or is it a fixed position? Thinking possible slots on mounting. Sorry you are having such problems and hope we can help you somehow find a fix. Kinda hard without being there.

[roncg41677]

Didn't check to see if the switch could be moved. That's a good idea. I'll check it out in the daylight tomorrow.

BTW, I totally rely on you guys here on this forum and appreciate all the help SO much. I have biker friends, and some with some good mechanical know-how. But they are almost all Harley Riders and when it comes to metrics they seem as intimidated as I am :) . It's good to know I can come here and get help from people who are familiar with MY bike. I feel like a leach sometimes, because I'm not contributing too much (at all) on other threads, but I hope to do that more as I keep learning.

[mr. softie]

You will, as time goes on, do your share of helping I'm sure.

[Water Warrior 2]

You will, as time goes on, do your share of helping I'm sure.


What he said. +1

[roncg41677]

I popped on out and looked at the switch with a flashlight. It doesn't look like it will move. I think I'll see if I can tape something on the stand so it will push the button in further and see if that makes a difference.

...still don't know why it's bogging down when I rev it though :??:

[patrick_777]

...some with some good mechanical know-how. But they are almost all Harley Riders and when it comes to metrics they seem as intimidated as I am...

That's funny because they probably have a LOT more troubleshooting and hands-on experience than anybody with a metric bike.

:poke2:

[Easy Rider]

...still don't know why it's bogging down when I rev it though :??:

Either:
1) It vibrates more and the marginal contact becomes MORE marginal
OR
2) You have an entirely different problem that you will need to address AFTER you solve the problem of dying when you put it in gear.

[roncg41677]

I wish for #1! ;)

[Easy Rider]

I wish for #1! ;)

Have you ordered a new switch assembly yet.......or made an appointment at the dealer ??

Wishing alone probably will not solve it! :biggrin:

[roncg41677]

No. I still am going to try to fix some way to push the switch in farther and see if that does it. The nearest dealership here is about 30 miles.

[adrianinflorida]

No. I still am going to try to fix some way to push the switch in farther and see if that does it. The nearest dealership here is about 30 miles.
Hell, if I ever had any free time between kids and work, I'd drive over to Dunellon and put the damn switch on for ya.

[mr. softie]

Hey Ron, check this out http://desc.shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_dmptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories?_nkw= gz250+kickstand+switch&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=1&_fromfsb=&_trksid=m270.l1313&_odkw=gz250+kickstand&_osacat=0 There are 5 switches on eBay right now, 2 are buy it now.

[adrianinflorida]

Hey Ron, check this out http://desc.shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_dmptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories?_nkw= gz250+kickstand+switch&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=1&_fromfsb=&_trksid=m270.l1313&_odkw=gz250+kickstand&_osacat=0 There are 5 switches on eBay right now, 2 are buy it now.
I bought a few things from Pinwall Motorcycle Parts on ebay, they shipped fast, included all the hardware and the auctions were accurate as to what I was getting.

[roncg41677]

Sweet! I'm watching them. If pushing the button in farther doesn't do it I'll go ahead and order one. Great prices too! Thanks for the link :2tup: .

Adrian, I know what you mean! I have 2 small kids. It can be hard for me to find time to work on the bike, but they love to help.

[roncg41677]

I think I'm going to get the switch, unless this latest news rules it out.

First thing I did today was to take some vice grips and hold the switch in all the way to see if it made a difference in the bike's stalling-when-in-gear issue. No luck. Then I disconnected the switch and figured I'd try it with the switch disconnected (I was told this closed the connection :??: somehow) and at first, same thing; bike started in N, then died as soon as I put it in first. THEN the bike just simply wouldn't turn over at all. I can't even start it in neutral anymore. Did I screw something up?

At this point the next piece of equipment is a "for sale" sign :mad: .

[roncg41677]

And the lights are all still on and bright, so I know the battery isn't dead.

[Easy Rider]

Then I disconnected the switch and figured I'd try it with the switch disconnected (I was told this closed the connection :??: somehow) and at first, same thing; bike started in N, then died as soon as I put it in first. THEN the bike just simply wouldn't turn over at all. I can't even start it in neutral anymore. Did I screw something up?


You misunderstood something along the way. It should fail when the switch is disconnected.....in exactly the same fashion as having the side stand DOWN......I think. The failure to turn over now might indicate that another of the safety's is also bad....clutch or neutral.
What happens when you re-connect the switch ??

Edit: I think I've said this before but, at this point, it seems appropriate to repeat it:
If you continue to "tinker" with the problem, in the end you might end up spending MORE money by guessing at what part needs to be replaced than you would if you just let the shop FIX IT.

For someone who is trained, it really is a fairly simple problem to diagnose and fix.

[alanmcorcoran]

You're gonna hear this from others, so I might as well go first - just cause the lights are on, don't mean the battery is strong enough to start it. However, it's probably not your problem. I think you have some kind of fuel problem but I'm just guessing. Did you followup on the vacuum hose stuff? At one point you said if you went to "prime" it started.

Patrick, Easy: What effect, if any, does putting the bike in gear have on fuel flow?

[Easy Rider]

Patrick, Easy: What effect, if any, does putting the bike in gear have on fuel flow?

None. I want some of that stuff you are smoking !!! :poke2: :biggrin:

[roncg41677]

When I re-connected the switch it still wouldn't turn over.

If you continue to "tinker" with the problem, in the end you might end up spending MORE money by guessing at what part needs to be replaced than you would if you just let the shop FIX IT.
Do you realize how difficult it is to NOT tinker :roll: . Money is scarce. A $10 switch is one thing, hauling the bike 60-70 miles (round trip) and paying a shop is another. As long as I'm not boring out a cylinder or something, and I'm not cutting wires anywhere I figure I can't do any damage. Am I the only cheap tinkerer on this board? :poke2: :)

[Easy Rider]

When I re-connected the switch it still wouldn't turn over.


So now there's another problem.......or maybe the stand switch wasn't the real problem to begin with. Check the kill switch. You could have bumped it by mistake OR that might be the whole problem. I know one Zuki owner (not on here, I think) who swears that the ONLY way to get his bike to start is to run the starter briefly, cycle the kill switch OFF and then back ON and then it will start. Not sure I believe that but HE certainly does.


Am I the only cheap tinkerer on this board? :poke2: :)

No but you need to have a realistic view of what the odds are for a good outcome.

I think it's about 50/50. Half fix the problem relatively cheap and easy. The other half make it worse to the point that they HAVE to take it to the shop. Someone with your obvious lack of experience (sorry but true) usually ends up in the second half.

If money is really tight, you have two choices: Keep tinkering, minding the odds of success OR park it until you can save up about $100 for a shop visit.

Had you RIDDEN it to the shop before it quit completely, you would have saved the (potential) towing cost.

Only YOU can decide what is the right course for you. :tup:

[mr. softie]

Try this... :popcorn: And yes I know all this has already been covered to a certain degree in this thread. ( back in August I think!!) I'm just trying to delineate a troubleshooting path here.

Bear in mind again the usefulness of a multimeter and a test light in troubleshooting electrical problems. A wiring diagram/schematic is also invaluable. There are diagrams on pages 205/206/207 of the service manual. The components can be easily checked for proper operation, and wiring for continuity and shorts etc. Check out the troubleshooting section in the service manual starting with page 177. Pretty straightforward. Sure beats wondering which part is bad, and a hell of a lot better than buying parts till you get the right one. Take it step by step and don't get frustrated. Think how great you will feel when you get it running like a top again!

Here is a shade tree mechanic way of troubleshooting: (for those without multimeter/continuity tester, or service manual.)
Disclaimer!! I have not done the following steps on my own bike as I have not had this problem. So I might just be talking out my a** :twisted:

1) Remove the kickstand switch.
2) Find the plug it plugs into in the main wiring harness.
3) Fabricate a jumper and connect the two leads in that plug. This should properly bypass the switch for testing purposes only. Your neutral light will probably stay on when in gear. More importantly the switch is there to prevent you from putting the bike in gear with the kickstand down, a real safety feature. :skull: The diode in the switch is to allow the neutral light to go off when the kickstand is up and the bike is not in neutral.
4) make sure you are in neutral
5) make sure your handlebar kill switch is in run position :retard:
6) try to start the bike. If it starts and runs ok when you shift into gear the trouble is your kickstand switch or its' wires ...replace it. This is the most likely culprit. :2tup:
7) If it quits or runs funny when you shift into gear the problem could be in your clutch safety override switch, or the wiring going to it, or some other problem..sidestand relay ... :??:



If this sounds like funky advice someone please chime in and let me know. :poke2:

[patrick_777]

5) make sure your handlebar kill switch is in run position :retard:

This actually gets me about once a month. It never fails to make me feel retarded.

:retard: :cuss:

[Sarris]

As I said before, I'm fairly sure there is some kind of diode (??) that figures in the kickstand switch and I'm fairly sure it won't run if bypassed.

If it were me I'd just replace the sidestand switch, If that didn't do it, I'd clean and/or replace the kill switch. Last but not least, I'd check the neutral safety switch.

This is gettin' old, just fix the damn thing and let us know what it was.

O_o

[Easy Rider]

It never fails to make me feel retarded.


Mmmm......nope, too easy! :shocked: :crackup

[roncg41677]

This is gettin' old, just fix the damn thing and let us know what it was. O_o
Okay. I know it's getting old. :horse: :crash:

I'll update when it's working. I honestly didn't mean to be a leach. Just taking advantage of all of the acquired knowledge here :blush: .

[mr. softie]

I'll update when it's working.

PMA Brother! PMA! That's the spirit! :2tup:

[roncg41677]

It's running great! Changed the stand switch, then couldn't get the bike started. It hadn't been ridden for a few weeks. Cleaned the contacts for the starter relay and ignitor and what not, charged the battery and it sounds great! I just took it around the block in beautiful 70 degree weather. I really opened it up (when I was closer to home than last time :) ) and no bogging. It ran just like it should. I finally get to ride to work tomorrow! The weather has been so nice here. Glad I'll get to enjoy it before we're back into our hot humid FL days.

Thanks so much for the help and patience everyone. I really appreciate it. :biggrin: :2tup: :biggrin:

[Easy Rider]

Cleaned the contacts for the starter relay and ignitor and what not,

Fantastic......I hope.

Hopefully the stand switch really was the problem and not one of those "what nots" that will come back to haunt you later. :cool:

[trykemike]

Hey roncg !

I appreciate the update. Glad the bike is running. I always blast the side stand switch with wd-40 when I do a cleaning. I did have a couple of no start occurrences but I kicked the side stand up then back down the the bike started no problem for months then a hiccup. perhaps dirt cloggs its micro switch.

[alanmcorcoran]

Photo Marketing Association? Produce Marketers Association? Pilates Method Ass... oh, waitaminute Positive Mental Attitude! (No wonder I didn't get it.)

[roncg41677]

Fantastic......I hope.

Hopefully the stand switch really was the problem and not one of those "what nots" that will come back to haunt you later. :cool:
I'm going to pretend I didn't read that :biggrin:

I did have a couple of no start occurrences but I kicked the side stand up then back down the the bike started no problem for months then a hiccup. perhaps dirt cloggs its micro switch.
Apparently other GZ owners have had issues with this too. It must be some kind of a design flaw or something.

Photo Marketing Association? Produce Marketers Association? Pilates Method Ass... oh, waitaminute Positive Mental Attitude! (No wonder I didn't get it.)
You're not alone :) I'm not ashamed to admit I used google to find out what that was all about. :biggrin:

[Easy Rider]

oh, waitaminute Positive Mental Attitude! (No wonder I didn't get it.)

No brains, no headaches !! :shocked: :crackup